Why do you accept the bible as inerrant historical fact?

[Tumah]

I like the part where he describes his own death

The Talmud already dealt with that 1,500 years ago. Sorry.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

That might be true if there was only one Jew in every generation and it was just a statement made once, that was brought out of the noggin once a year and dusted off. But all my friends tell me they kept hearing the same thing from their fathers too. If Chinese telephone is anything like broken telephone, then the message at the end is supposed to be different not the same.

You have heard of the Documentary Hypothesis?

 

[Tumah]

You have heard of the Documentary Hypothesis?

Yes Ma'am. It basically aims to answer all the questions that Jewish commentary has already answered.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Yes Ma'am. It basically aims to answer all the questions that Jewish commentary has already answered.

But were not satisfactorily answered by those commentaries. There is no evidence that the Pentateuch was compiled before 5th century BCE.

So if the commentaries insist that it was handed down to Moses on Mount Sinai without giving evidence that was indeed the case, then those commentaries cannot be taken at face value.

Saying "Because my book says so" is not evidence.

A: The Bible is the accurate Word of God

B: How do you know the Bible is true?

A: Because God say so in the Bible.

That is circular reasoning.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

When will people tire of gloating over perceived contradictions in the Torah?

The unsettling thing here is that too many act as if hey are raising some novel and faith-shattering conundrum. All of these things have been discussed ad nauseum. Thoughtful - sometimes brilliant - literalist have long ago developed coherent answers which you and I have every right to accept or reject. But this incessant desire to expose and ridicule the faithful strikes me as a but unseemly.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

There is no evidence that the Pentateuch was compiled before 5th century BCE.

Compiled is an interesting term here.

There is, of course, a great deal of evidence that at least parts of the Torah are considerably older.

 

[outhouse]

The Talmud already dealt with that 1,500 years ago. Sorry.

Did they do it with any credibility historically though, is the question.

And how did they deal with the facts regarding modern archeology below?


#1 Why did Jews only worship the Canaanite deities that existed before them?

#2 Why did they start writing as a culture 1000 BC ish, using only the Canaanite alphabet?


#3 Why was there factually only a slow migration of Semitic people to te highlands of Israel after 1200 BC, 50 years after the Canaanite civilizations collapsed?

 

[Tumah]

But were not satisfactorily answered by those commentaries. There is no evidence that the Pentateuch was compiled before 5th century BCE.

So if the commentaries insist that it was handed down to Moses on Mount Sinai without giving evidence that was indeed the case, then those commentaries cannot be taken at face value.

Saying "Because my book says so" is not evidence.

A: The Bible is the accurate Word of God

B: How do you know the Bible is true?

A: Because God say so in the Bible.

That is circular reasoning.

My argument here is not that the Bible is true because it says its true. My argument is that the Bible is not a fabrication because the perceived problems with it are not real issues.

Here is a list of the chain of leaders of Israel from Moses to me. (I was actually working on my own a while back but I can't seem to find it. But this one will do.) Tell me which one of them fabricated the Bible and which ones are themselves a fabrication. Here is 139 people averaging 24 years each from 2448 AM to 5774 AM (the truth is, its a little longer since the "Mar Rav's had somewhat shorter spans of leadership).

Moses
Joshua
Othniel
Ehud
Deborah + Barak
Gideon
Tola
Yair
Yiftach
Ibzan
Elon
Avdon
Samson
Eli
Samuel
David
Achiah
Elijah
Elishah
Yehoyadah
Zecharia
Hosea
Amos
Isaia
Michah
Joel
Nachom
Chabakuk
Zephania
Jeremiah
Baruch
Ezra
Simon the Righteous
Antignus of Socho
Yosi ben Yoezer and Yosef ben Yochanon
Yehoshua ben Prachya and Nitai of Arbel
Yehuda ben Tabai and Simon ben Shetach
Shmaya & Avtalyon
Hillel & Shammai
Rabban Shimon
Rabban Gamliel the Elder
Rabbi Shimon ben Gamliel II
Rabban Gamliel ben Simon II
Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel III
Rabbi Judah the Prince
Rav, Shmuel, and Rabbi Yochanon
Rav Huna
Rabbah
Rava
Rav Ashi
Rafram
Rav Sam a B’rei d’Rava
Rav Yosi
Rav Simonia Rav Ravoi Me-Rov
Mar Chanan Me-Ashkaya
Rav Mari
Rav Chana Gaon
Mar Rav Rava
Rav Busai
Mar Rav Huna Mari
Mar Rav Chiyah Me-Mishan
Mar Ravyah
Mar Rav Natronai
Mar Rav Yehuda
Mar Rav Yosef
Mar Rav Shmuel
Mar Rav Natroi Kahana
Mar Rav Avrohom Kahana
Mar Rav Dodai
Rav Chananya
Rav Maika
Mar Rav Rava
Mar Rav Shinoi
Mar Rav Chaninah Gaon Kahana
Mar Rav Huna Mar Halevi
Mar Rav Menasheh
Mar Rav Yeshaya Halevi
Mar Rav Kahanah Gaon
Mar Rav Yosef
Mar Rav Ibomai Gaon
Mar Rav Yosef
Mar Rav Avrohom
Mar Rav Yosef
Mar Rav Yitzchak
Mar Rav Yosef
Mar Rav Poltoi
Mar Rav Achai Kahana
Mar Rav Menachem
Mar Rav Matisyahu
Rav Mar Abba
Mar Rav Tzemach Gaon
Mar Rav Hai Gaon
Mar Rav Kimoi Gaon
Mar Rav Yehuda
Mar Rav Mevasser Kahana Gaon
Rav Kohen Tzedek
Mar Rav Tzemach Gaon
Rav Chaninah Gaon
Mar Rav Aharon Hacohen
Mar Rav Nechemiah
Rav Sherirah Gaon
Meshulam Hagadol
Rav Gershom Meor Hagolah
Rav Yaakov ben Yakar
Rav Shlomo Yitzchaki
R’ Shmuel ben Meir
R’ Yaakov ben Meir
Eliezer Me-Metz
Rokeach
R’ Yitzchak of Vienna
Rav Meir of Rothenberg
R’ Yitzchak of Duren
R’ Alexander Zusiein Hakohen
Meir Bar Baruch Halevi
R’ Sholom of Neustadt
R’ Yaakov Moelin
R’ Yisroel Isserlein
R’ Tavoli
Rabbi Yaakov Margolies
Rabbi Yaakov Pollak
Rabbi Sholom Shachna
Rabbi Moshe Isserles
Rabbi Yehoshua Falk Katz
Rabbi Naftoli Hirsch ben Pesachya
Rabbi Moshe Rivkas
Rabbi Avraham Gombiner
Rabbi Moshe Kramer
Rabbi Eliyahu Chasid
Rabbi Yissachar Ber
Rabbi Shlomo Zalman
Rabbi Eliyahu Kramer
Rabbi Chaim Voloziner
Rabbi Zundel of Salant
Rabbi Yisroel Salanter
Rabbi Simcha Zissel of Kelm
Rabbi Nosson Tzvi Finkel
Rabbi Yitzchok Hutner
My Rabbi
Me

 

[Tumah]

Did they do it with any credibility historically though, is the question.

Who decides whether their answer was objectively credible?

And how did they deal with the facts regarding modern archeology below?


#1 Why did Jews only worship the Canaanite deities that existed before them?

Only or also?

#2 Why did they start writing as a culture 1000 BC ish, using only the Canaanite alphabet?

I think you mean Paleo-Hebrew? And I don't think you mean that they started writing as a culture in 1000, but that there is only one existent artifact that dates that far back. The next one dates 200 years later. If in a 199 year span of history, there are no known artifacts, but clearly a language, it is not such a far-stretch to say that 199 years before that artifact there might also have been a language. And then we are already at the time that Israel entered Israel.

Could be? I don't know.

#3 Why was there factually only a slow migration of Semitic people to te highlands of Israel after 1200 BC, 50 years after the Canaanite civilizations collapsed?

I don't know
Do you mean theory (the difference being whether it absolutely happened that way, or whether current archaeological records seem to indicate this)?
If I don't have all the answers, am I wrong?

 

[outhouse]

Who decides whether their answer was objectively credible?

Scholars and historians.

The Talmud was written 1400 years after the formation of Israelites as a people, and only reflects a small portion of what was early Judaism.

Only or also?

Only.

These deities existed long before Israelites as a culture existed, in part of the Canaanite pantheon of deities.

I think you mean Paleo-Hebrew?

Correct.

And I don't think you mean that they started writing as a culture in 1000, but that there is only one existent artifact that dates that far back

I think that we see quite clearly that is about the time the people who settled the highlands started writing.

. The next one dates 200 years later.

Correct.

I don't know
Do you mean theory (the difference being whether it absolutely happened that way, or whether current archaeological records seem to indicate this)?
If I don't have all the answers, am I wrong?

This is what Finkelstien claims as fact.

 

[Sleeppy]

That might be true if there was only one Jew in every generation and it was just a statement made once, that was brought out of the noggin once a year and dusted off. But all my friends tell me they kept hearing the same thing from their fathers too. If Chinese telephone is anything like broken telephone, then the message at the end is supposed to be different not the same.

That's the best history can do. We can only hope that our fathers recorded everything accurately, and that we are still able to understand what is relevant.

To this day, we do not always keep accurate information- and we spread misinformation faster than anything else. We've founded much of our entertainment around misinformation- manipulation, in general.

 

[Tumah]

Scholars and historians.

The Talmud was written 1400 years after the formation of Israelites as a people, and only reflects a small portion of what was early Judaism.

Scholars and historians formulate theories based on the evidence that they have available to them. That doesn't mean they are right. That means that if all the information that was available to them was all the information to be had about a given subject, then they would be right.
So their credibility only extends as far as the current information. Their interpretations of the information are not objective facts.

I would argue it was written 2200 years after the formation of Israelites as a people. And that doesn't mean they were wrong. Moses wrote up until the point that he died. Joshua filled in the last few verses. Nothing too crazy there.

Only.

These deities existed long before Israelites as a culture existed, in part of the Canaanite pantheon of deities.

Oh you have evidence that YHVH wasn't worshiped from 1200 BCE onward?

Jewish sources put idol worship as starting in the time of Enosh, which comes out to about the early Bronze Age. So I would expect to find Cannanite worship from around that time period.

I think that we see quite clearly that is about the time the people who settled the highlands started writing.

One stone wall of letters is indication of when they started writing?

This is what Finkelstien claims as fact.

I don't know who Finkelstein is. But I was fairly sure that scientists to state facts, but formulate theories. I guess I was wrong.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Here is 139 people averaging 24 years each from 2448 AM to 5774 AM

I can see there are some rather legendary figures in your list.

So if your grandfather told you his grandfather told him that his grandfather had told him that his grandfather told him that he is a direct descendant of Paul Bunyan is that evidence that Paul Bunyan existed?

I mean the Japanese Emperors claim they were descended from the sun goddess Amaterasu, is this evidence for Amaterasu?

How about if I told my family believe that we are descended from Abdul Alhazred, would that be evidence that the Call of Cthulhu is factual?

 

[Tumah]

I can see there are some rather legendary figures in your list.

So if your grandfather told you his grandfather told him that his grandfather had told him that his grandfather told him that he is a direct descendant of Paul Bunyan is that evidence that Paul Bunyan existed?

I mean the Japanese Emperors claim they were descended from the sun goddess Amaterasu, is this evidence for Amaterasu?

How about if I told my family believe that we are descended from Abdul Alhazred, would that be evidence that the Call of Cthulhu is factual?

If it was just my grandfather, I would agree. But I know a couple hundred thousand people who were also told that by their grandfathers too. So, at what point did an entire nation begin telling their children this myth? How does it begin and how does it progress?

The myth: my x-parents and all your other little Israelite friends' x- parents were at Sinai.

The difference between your Cthulhu and my Sinai Revelation, is that you have no one to corroborate your story. I have a lots. And the one who first made up the story and told it to your family was the sole witness, that your family chose to believe. The first one who made up my Sinai Revelation, had to convince all the other people that their families were there too, when that could be easily be contradicted (by asking their parents).

 

[CynthiaCypher]

If it was just my grandfather, I would agree. But I know a couple hundred thousand people who were also told that by their grandfathers too. So, at what point did an entire nation begin telling their children this myth? How does it begin and how does it progress?

The myth: my x-parents and all your other little Israelite friends' x- parents were at Sinai.

The difference between your Cthulhu and my Sinai Revelation, is that you have no one to corroborate your story. I have a lots. And the one who first made up the story and told it to your family was the sole witness, that your family chose to believe. The first one who made up my Sinai Revelation, had to convince all the other people that their families were there too, when that could be easily be contradicted (by asking their parents).

A group of people having a national delusion is nothing new in history. The Roma claim divine descent, the Chinese have claimed divine descent, the Aztecs claimed divine descent. You have no evidence and it is impossible to corroborate that the Israelite received the Law from Moses who got it from God himself on Mount Sinai.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

A group of people having a national delusion is nothing new in history. The Roma claim divine descent, the Chinese have claimed divine descent, the Aztecs claimed divine descent. You have no evidence and it is impossible to corroborate that the Israelite received the Law from Moses who got it from God himself on Mount Sinai.

Therefore?

 

[Tumah]

A group of people having a national delusion is nothing new in history. The Roma claim divine descent, the Chinese have claimed divine descent, the Aztecs claimed divine descent. You have no evidence and it is impossible to corroborate that the Israelite received the Law from Moses who got it from God himself on Mount Sinai.

I see a difference between relying on the say-so of one or two people and relying on the say-so of an entire nation of people. Who is going to corroborate Emperor Jimmu's claim? No one else was at his birth. When Jesus makes his claim to godhood, who can say they can see inside Jesus and there is no god in there. Who can tell Muhammad that he is having a seizure not a prophecy? They can't be corroborated because no one else experiences them.

In the case of the Sinai Revelation, everyone else can corroborate the story of any given individual who claims to have had a Divine Revelation at Sinai. And all their children can corroborate the claim of another that their parents stood at Sinai. And their grandchildren...

If you came up with the myth that me and all my friends were descendants of people that had a revelation, I would run right home and ask my parents if they ever heard anything about that. Then I would ask all my friends' parents if they heard anything about that. And then, you would be laughed out of town.

You can make up a story about you. And I can believe it or not. But you can't make up a story about me.

 

[outhouse]

Scholars and historians formulate theories based on the evidence that they have available to them. That doesn't mean they are right. That means that if all the information that was available to them was all the information to be had about a given subject, then they would be right.
So their credibility only extends as far as the current information. Their interpretations of the information are not objective facts.

And apologist writing 1400 years after the fact are blind to the real history of their people and are apologetically biased.


The Talmud is not a historical authority of any kind for Israelites ethnogenesis.

I would argue it was written 2200 years after the formation of Israelites as a people.

You could.

Its just no credible historian would agree with you.

No one with credibility places Israelites before 1200 BC for a reason, they did not exist.

And that doesn't mean they were wrong. Moses wrote up until the point that he died. Joshua filled in the last few verses. Nothing too crazy there.

Moses is said to be a literary creation by scholars.

Oh you have evidence that YHVH wasn't worshiped from 1200 BCE onward?

Israelites were Polytheistic and multi cultural almost to the NT times.

Monotheistic reforms by King Josiah did not start until 622 BC, and even then many people did not follow the governments reforms.

So I would expect to find Cannanite worship from around that time period.

Canaanites worshiped Yahweh and El and Asherah and Baal before Israelites existed.

I don't know who Finkelstein is. But I was fairly sure that scientists to state facts, but formulate theories. I guess I was wrong.

He is Israels head archeologist.

 

[Tumah]

And apologist writing 1400 years after the fact are blind to the real history of their people and are apologetically biased.


The Talmud is not a historical authority of any kind for Israelites ethnogenesis.

You could.

Its just no credible historian would agree with you.

I'm not really sure there's anything else to be said here.

No one with credibility places Israelites before 1200 BC for a reason, they did not exist.

Well, I'm comfortable with ~1200 BCE. Forty years in the desert finished in 1245 BCE.

Moses is said to be a literary creation by scholars.

See first response.

Israelites were Polytheistic and multi cultural almost to the NT times.

I would say, Israel practiced idolatry until almost NT times. But they definitely worshiped YHWH as is evidenced by the big wall that still remains of the Temple.

Monotheistic reforms by King Josiah did not start until 622 BC, and even then many people did not follow the governments reforms.

I don't think I disagree with you as much as you think I do. I am perfectly comfortable describing Israel as a nation that performed idol-worship through service to the many gods of that cultures in their neighborhood. The Bible and the Talmud note this.

Canaanites worshiped Yahweh and El and Asherah and Baal before Israelites existed.

No problem for me. Adam taught his kids about G-d who taught their kids who taught their kids, who then decided that they didn't deserve to directly serve G-d only intermediary forces. Then they taught their kids, who mixed in what they learned about G-d along with the new gods that they made up. Voila, Canaanites worshiping YHWH, El, Asherah, all the Ba'als, Moth (death), Yam (ocean), Shachar (morning), Yerech (moon), etc.

He is Israels head archeologist.

Oh. Sorry Caladan.

 

[outhouse]

I'm not really sure there's anything else to be said here.



.

Exactly, you choose to hand wave everything professors teach, in every college as higher learning, in favor of faith alone.


Its why you have no real evidence to back your position.