Why Do They Do It?

[nPeace]

I don't know if it has been mentioned before but it could be "extended suicide". In these cases, the perpetrators often believe that they have failed as the breadwinner of the family, and that the spouse and children would be better off dead than alive but with "inadequate provision of material necessities."

Some kind of "mercy killing"? Isn't that harming someone who didn't ask to be "taken away"?
People generally think it's okay to do anything, so long as it doesn't harm someone else.
So, in a case like that, would you say the person was showing love?

 

[Koldo]

By accident? Do people murder others because they have love?

Depending on how you think of 'love', yes. But that's not quite what I meant. The lack of love is generally necessary to kill someone but not enough. I don't love you (nor do I hate you) but I definitely wouldn't kill you just because of that. It would take a lot more than a mere lack of love.

 

[Koldo]

Children seem to be becoming less loved these days.

I happen to see the exact opposite going on. Parents seem to care more about their children nowadays than they did before.

 

[nPeace]

Depending on how you think of 'love', yes. But that's not quite what I meant. The lack of love is generally necessary to kill someone but not enough. I don't love you (nor do I hate you) but I definitely wouldn't kill you just because of that. It would take a lot more than a mere lack of love.

Then you didn't understand what the OP is asking.
It's not asking for... why did the guy shoot his daughter... was he mentally insane... harboring a grudge... didn't like how she looked....

Rather, How can a father look at his 12 year old daughter, and shoot her to death? Why do people do things like this?
In other words, what would it take? What is the underlying cause for being capable of doing things like that?

Sorry if the "Why" word misguided you.
Maybe it did others.

 

[Koldo]

Then you didn't understand what the OP is asking.
It's not asking for... why did the guy shoot his daughter... was he mentally insane... harboring a grudge... didn't like how she looked....

Rather, How can a father look at his 12 year old daughter, and shoot her to death? Why do people do things like this?
In other words, what would it take? What is the underlying cause for being capable of doing things like that?

Sorry if the "Why" word misguided you.
Maybe it did others.

Once again, I don't love you and yet I wouldn't be capable of killing you.... It would take something else.

 

[blü 2]

You seem to be describing ego, or extreme pride which centered on self - selfishness.

I'd suggest it was a very deep uncertainty about one's own identity, which both generates the possessive behavior in the first place and makes a challenge to that identity, such as the partner threatening to leave, beyond the capacity of the subject to handle rationally.

So, that would hinder love or be fueled by lack of love, wouldn't it?

It's often hard to fit normal terms of reference like 'love' into abnormal mindscapes, though. Words like 'threatened' and 'desperate' and 'blinded' may be more appropriate in many cases.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

How can a father look at his 12 year old daughter, and shoot her to death?
Nev. Police Officer Fatally Shot Daughter, 12, and Injured Wife and Son Before Turning Gun on Himself

I would say, for starters, it's a lack of love.
What do you think? Why do people do things like this?

It's definitely a lack of love.

Those sorts of simplistic views are not very useful, in my view. Neither of you has considered, just for example, whether there might have been a lot of "love," but combined with a complete misunderstanding of what "love" might mean. And all too often, that complete misunderstanding arises out of dogmatic thinking, all-too-often the result of one kind of indoctrination or other (often religious, but not always).

And mental illness does not necessarily equate to a "lack of love." Many people suffering from a wide variety of mental illnesses have love to spare, but can't find a way to make it work in the the context of their illness.

 

[nPeace]

I happen to see the exact opposite going on. Parents seem to care more about their children nowadays than they did before.

You find?
Man... I don't know where you live... I guess that is a factor, but from the news alone, that's not what I am seeing.

However, you should have noticed, I didn't say parents.
I'm talking about what's happening to children and the treatment they are getting - not from parents alone.

I'll do some research on the overall facts, and get back to you.

 

[nPeace]

Once again, I don't love you and yet I wouldn't be capable of killing you.... It would take something else.

Yes. It does take other things... I agree.
That's why I said, 'for starters, it's lack of love'.
For example, you may not feel capable of killing me, but all that is missing is "the spark to set the fuel ablaze".

The hatred, then takes other forms - anger -> rage -> murder. Or resentment -> spite / revenge. Or... you get the idea.
Someone did mention the manipulation of the mind.

 

[nPeace]

I'd suggest it was a very deep uncertainty about one's own identity, which both generates the possessive behavior in the first place and makes a challenge to that identity, such as the partner threatening to leave, beyond the capacity of the subject to handle rationally.

It's often hard to fit normal terms of reference like 'love' into abnormal mindscapes, though. Words like 'threatened' and 'desperate' and 'blinded' may be more appropriate in many cases.

Blinded by what? If one has love they are not blinded by rage.
I believe people think they know what love is, but really don't.
Perhaps that would be a good topic for a thread... "What is love?"

 

[nPeace]

Those sorts of simplistic views are not very useful, in my view. Neither of you has considered, just for example, whether there might have been a lot of "love," but combined with a complete misunderstanding of what "love" might mean. And all too often, that complete misunderstanding arises out of dogmatic thinking, all-too-often the result of one kind of indoctrination or other (often religious, but not always).

And mental illness does not necessarily equate to a "lack of love." Many people suffering from a wide variety of mental illnesses have love to spare, but can't find a way to make it work in the the context of their illness.

I don't think it's a matter of us not considering "whether there might have been a lot of "love""... good that you put love in quotations, because that's the issue... not seeing love in the way each sees it.
We don't see love the same.

 

[nPeace]

I happen to see the exact opposite going on. Parents seem to care more about their children nowadays than they did before.

When you say before, when are you thinking of?

Homicides of infants and young children are most often committed in the home, by parents/caregivers, using “weapons of opportunity”. This suggests that the risk of infant/child homicide is greatest within the primary care giving environment. Moreover, the use of “weapons of opportunity” may be indicative of maladaptive stress responses. Prevention and intervention strategies to reduce infant/child homicide should target the home environment and attend to maladaptive stress responses.

Homicide is the leading cause of infant deaths due to intentional injury in the US. In 2003, there were 717 reported homicides of children between zero and four years of age. The risk for homicide is greater in infancy than in any other year of childhood before the age of 15 years.
Imagine that.

The article says that prior research suggests the vast majority of perpetrators of infant or child homicide are female - most often the mother.

This is what is said in all data on child homicide. Not just the mother, though.
Children face the highest risk of homicide by parents and someone they know.

The risk for homicide is greater in infancy than in any other year of childhood before the age of 15 years.​

 

[F1fan]

By accident? Do people murder others because they have love?

You keep referring to love as if it can conquer all. It can't Many with bipolar disorder are capable;e pf love and can express it in close relationships. But their disorder can affect how they perceive reality and they can fall into deep depression or mania, and in mania their judgment is very poor. So someone might do something bad to another while in a disturbed mental state that they would not do typically while stable.

 

[blü 2]

Blinded by what? If one has love they are not blinded by rage.

Jesus is said to have had love, but he's described as behaving irrationally when he saw the temple traders, violently assaulting them when ─ if there was fault at all ─ fault lay with the Temple authorities, not the traders.

So perhaps love is not quite as all-encompassing as you argue for. Perhaps it's only one of the important aspects of being human.

Blinded by what? If one has love they are not blinded by rage.

Across the animal kingdom various kinds of bonding ─ love ─ are found. Some birds mate for life, for example. Humans bond for a period of years because young humans need five years growth or thereabouts ─ hence protection ─ before they have the beginnings of independence.

Bonding is a human biochemical reaction, taking different forms with partners, children, parents, kinfolk, social unit. Testosterone and estrogen are part of sexual arousal but also of bonding of sexual partners, along with oxytocin and others. Over all you could say we've evolved the biochemistry appropriate to surviving and breeding as gregarious primates. Emotionally it can be enormously satisfying, but of course it doesn't have to be and isn't always.

 

[nPeace]

You keep referring to love as if it can conquer all. It can't Many with bipolar disorder are capable;e pf love and can express it in close relationships. But their disorder can affect how they perceive reality and they can fall into deep depression or mania, and in mania their judgment is very poor. So someone might do something bad to another while in a disturbed mental state that they would not do typically while stable.

I am referring to people in their right mind.
If you are referring to people with severe mental problems, I have already covered that here.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Thanks for these.
However, I was more looking at a root cause.
Looking at all these, I can sum them all up as a lack of love for others.

If one loves their children, they would not think that killing them to spare them from hardships in this world is loving, because life or living, has its joys as well, and if that excuse they thought up were true, they would have thought about it, before they brought the child into the world.
People know life isn't always easy, yet they get children.

If one truly loves another, they would not want to hurt them, or kill their dog, cat, or child, to cause the person hurt. That person doesn't even love domestic animals... far less, children.
They only think of what they want. Not true.

(Proverbs 12:10) The righteous one is caring for the soul of his domestic animal, but the mercies of the wicked ones are cruel.

Perhaps, but people often do kill others if they want to lessen any suffering or perceived suffering, and killing one's child or children might be seen as such - if they wanted to take their own life and not have this affect any surviving child. Love still appears to be around when some do take the lives of others - so as to reduce their suffering. But I've no statistics as to the likely reasons for those apparently killing family members.

 

[nPeace]

Jesus is said to have had love, but he's described as behaving irrationally when he saw the temple traders, violently assaulting them when ─ if there was fault at all ─ fault lay with the Temple authorities, not the traders.

Jesus knew what he was doing. He displayed love - love for his father; love for pure worship; love for the people... and especially those who knew what God required, and were being robbed.

Jesus did not violently assault the people who were using the temple to rob people. I don't know where you got that.

So perhaps love is not quite as all-encompassing as you argue for. Perhaps it's only one of the important aspects of being human.

Not sure what your point is here, but yes, love is an important aspect of being human. Glad you mentioned that.
That's why when they act contrary, they are described as animal; monster; etc.
James even went a little further, to show what its source is. James 3:13-16

Would you say, a cop who shot someone who robbed an individual at gunpoint, did not show love, just because he killed someone?

Across the animal kingdom various kinds of bonding ─ love ─ are found. Some birds mate for life, for example. Humans bond for a period of years because young humans need five years growth or thereabouts ─ hence protection ─ before they have the beginnings of independence.

Bonding is a human biochemical reaction, taking different forms with partners, children, parents, kinfolk, social unit. Testosterone and estrogen are part of sexual arousal but also of bonding of sexual partners, along with oxytocin and others. Over all you could say we've evolved the biochemistry appropriate to surviving and breeding as gregarious primates. Emotionally it can be enormously satisfying, but of course it doesn't have to be and isn't always.

Your definition of love, is definitely different to the one I am familiar with. So we haven't started to have a meaningful conversation on that topic - you know... a conversation that can actually go somewhere.

Wait though. I thought you said love is an important aspect of being human. How did you get the animals in?

 

[nPeace]

Perhaps, but people often do kill others if they want to lessen any suffering or perceived suffering, and killing one's child or children might be seen as such - if they wanted to take their own life and not have this affect any surviving child. Love still appears to be around when some do take the lives of others - so as to reduce their suffering. But I've no statistics as to the likely reasons for those apparently killing family members.

Yes, it's a misunderstanding of what love is. In other words, it's twisted "love". Sort of like what people do everyday.

Abuse : "I love you, that's why I am beating you black and blue. I want to knock some sense into your head" sort of love. Twisted.
There are many examples that could be mentioned of how people have redefined love.

What love is, and how it is displayed, is different to the various ideas man have of it.

 

[blü 2]

Jesus knew what he was doing. He displayed love - love for his father; love for pure worship; love for the people... and especially those who knew what God required, and were being robbed.

A couple of things here ─ you're an honest money-changer lawfully conducting your occupation at the Temple with full permission of the Temple authorities, and some thug takes to you with a whip, drives you out, kicks over your tables and scatters your money. You wouldn't see much love in that, would you? Rather, you'd say, "Excuse me, sir, we're here trading completely lawfully. Please get control of yourself and put down that whip. If you assault us that won't change anything except that honest people will think the less of you, and you'll be guilty of breaching the peace and liable to punishment accordingly. If you don't like the rules, why don't you peaceably make your case to the Temple authorities and see what you can achieve within the law?"

yes, love is an important aspect of being human. Glad you mentioned that.
That's why when they act contrary, they are described as animal; monster; etc.

No argument. Killing children is horrific and killing your own children is an order of magnitude more so. But our question is, why does it actually happen at all, no?

Your definition of love, is definitely different to the one I am familiar with. So we haven't started to have a meaningful conversation on that topic - you know... a conversation that can actually go somewhere.

What then is your definition of love? How come H sap sap individuals love, their partners, their parents, their siblings, their children, their friends ...? Why did we evolve with those traits, and what parts of our metabolism cause them to happen?

Wait though. I thought you said love is an important aspect of being human. How did you get the animals in?

H sap sap is a species of animal. I don't think that's controversial, is it?

 

[Mock Turtle]

Yes, it's a misunderstanding of what love is. In other words, it's twisted "love". Sort of like what people do everyday.

Abuse : "I love you, that's why I am beating you black and blue. I want to knock some sense into your head" sort of love. Twisted.
There are many examples that could be mentioned of how people have redefined love.

What love is, and how it is displayed, is different to the various ideas man have of it.

Well I tend to agree - as to twisted love - in that any love that might be present - and I think such would exist given their previous life all too often, as to not showing any abnormal signs quite often - but something makes them flip as to seeing any future prospects. And this personal feeling of doom then spreading to encompass all that they do in fact love. I doubt many who kill toddlers or very young children of their own do not love them. Their mind is unbalanced is the most likely reason for doing such things - like an unsolvable dilemma perhaps, and where they take the worst option rather than anything else available.