Mr Spinkles
Mr
That's impossible....IQ's do not go into negative numbers.chamberlain said:I am dumber having read your last post.
Only kidding.
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That's impossible....IQ's do not go into negative numbers.chamberlain said:I am dumber having read your last post.
Ceridwen018 said:chamberlain,
Oh but it is so much more complicated than that. If the world were a happy place, full of rainbows and butterflies, your theory would work here, but that is not reality. The reality is that this world is full of hardships and immense pain. Now, I don't know what constitutes a meaningful relationship for you, but for me, constant tests and obstacles aren't going to win my heart. If god wishes merely to have a meaningful realtionship with us, then why is there all of this suffering and evil? It would seem to me that perhaps god's intentions are not as pure as people would like to believe.
As far as free-will goes, logically that is still nonexistant. I assume that you believe that those who reject god go to hell, a sort of 'turn or burn' philosophy, if you will. What you are basically saying, then, is that if you don't believe in and love god, you will suffer for eternity in hell. This doesn't seem like free-will at all to me-- 'do or die' is never a fair choice. true free-will demands the possibility of equal reward and punishment for each possible choice.
One must excercize true love to be joined with God! And yes, sometimes that does mean a few butterflies and rainbows. If the world looks so bad to you Ceridwen that you can't see any beauty, then I would think that what you are missing in life is true love......
As to the hardships of this life, I call this "impedition". Without impedition it is impossible to grow.
Without impedition you don't have any Heroes (aka Jesus Christ). Beauty is even more intense against the contrasted backdrop of anti-beauty.
Ceridwen018 said:destinata7,
One must excercize true love to be joined with God! And yes, sometimes that does mean a few butterflies and rainbows. If the world looks so bad to you Ceridwen that you can't see any beauty, then I would think that what you are missing in life is true love......
I didn't mean to sound like a downer--don't worry, I see plenty of beauty in this world! As for true love...well, remember what 'Mama' said, you 'just have to wait'!
True love doesn't have to be limited to a mate! I can see what's on your mind now though!
As to the hardships of this life, I call this "impedition". Without impedition it is impossible to grow.
Why is it necessary for us to grow, though? We gain wisdom and insight through all our life's hardships, but how does that mean anything in the afterlife?
Your position in the afterlife depends on your growth in this present life. You won't get huge Arnold muscles if you don't pump the iron! The further you are able to progress in this life, the better.
Without impedition you don't have any Heroes (aka Jesus Christ). Beauty is even more intense against the contrasted backdrop of anti-beauty.
But without impedition, we wouldn't need heroes, so we wouldn't miss them.
If Jesus was a hero and He was the representative of God the I-am, hero-ism is in God's very nature. The kind of hero that is willing to sacrifice oneself for someone you love........no greater love exists. That's God love sister Ceridwen! (Hope you don't mind if I call you that. You did say that you used to be Catholic did you not?).
We are creatures of opposites: good/bad, truth/lie, beauty/non-beauty. If god were all powerful, he could take away our need for opposites and allow us to experince beauty at its most intense state, without us needing something lesser to compare it with.
I can see what's on your mind now though!
Your position in the afterlife depends on your growth in this present life. You won't get huge Arnold muscles if you don't pump the iron! The further you are able to progress in this life, the better.
If Jesus was a hero and He was the representative of God the I-am, hero-ism is in God's very nature. The kind of hero that is willing to sacrifice oneself for someone you love........no greater love exists. That's God love sister Ceridwen! (Hope you don't mind if I call you that. You did say that you used to be Catholic did you not?).
Ceridwen, maybe we as mortals are so blind to true beauty that we are incapable of seeing it properly in this state without some contrast.
Furthermore, if God took away all of our needs......what would we need God for?
Bottom line, you need to quit all of your atheist talk and get back to church you spinster you!!!
Ceridwen wrote:
I am all for growth an becoming a better person, I just don't see how it relates to the afterlife. When you're in heaven, what use will you have for all that knowledge and wisdom?
If Jesus was a hero and He was the representative of God the I-am, hero-ism is in God's very nature. The kind of hero that is willing to sacrifice oneself for someone you love........no greater love exists. That's God love sister Ceridwen! (Hope you don't mind if I call you that. You did say that you used to be Catholic did you not?).
So, you're saying that the sacrifice of Jesus was necessary in order to reach us humans as we exist in our present nature.
Ceridwen, maybe we as mortals are so blind to true beauty that we are incapable of seeing it properly in this state without some contrast.
So why doesn't god change our state then? That's my point.
So God waves the magic wand and everyone is perfect like the I-AM? Progression doesn't work that way....you have to earn your stars.
And "works" are a huge deal....so don't let the "once saved always saved" people misrepresent the true teachings of the Bible!
Furthermore, if God took away all of our needs......what would we need God for?
Well...what do we need him for now, exactly?
You need God if you want to have eternal life and if you wish to be eternally loved. The saying "you don't know what you've got until it's gone" truly applies to humans.....having the freedom to view alternatives to God's love changes the appreciation for being loved at all (remember the parable of the Prodigal Son? He brought about his own troubles but when he learned from his choices he was ready to come home....and there were open arms waiting there.)
Bottom line, you need to quit all of your atheist talk and get back to church you spinster you!!!
Hah! If only it were that easy.
The trouble for some atheists can be that they are actually very intelligent people. They are not willing to blindly accept doctrines that are contradictory or full of holes. That is why I searched diligently for something that harmonized the Bible and science and wasn't full of holes or contradictory (because I'm so darned intelligent :lol: )
My hope is that I can be a good ambassador to you for my beliefs and that these discussions will lead you back to church (and no it most certainly doesn't have to be mine). People can love and do so even with botched up doctrines. The question is if you are the kind of person that could worship and love in "ignorance". It's much harder to choose to be "ignorant" once your eyes have been opened to deeper levels of truth and knowledge. It sometimes creates a feeling of separation from those who don't share that perspective with you.
So my beliefs are quite different from many of the common churches who teach that you must believe the way that they do to avoid eternal damnation. The Spirit of what is taught is much more important than the letter of the law (even though the letter of the law is so fun to argue ).
Higher expressions of love must be attained!
Now get to it Sister Ceridwen!!!
I personally don't believe that the only way we could attain eternal life was to have God's Son cruelly tortured and butchered on the cross. Jesus Christ was aware that there were other ways to impart salvation to mankind without the cross....nevertheless, things turned out that way due to the ignorance and violence of humankind. The willingness that Jesus Christ had to live a human life and show us all how to physically and spiritually overcome is pure love itself. That He did end up dying at the hands of those He came to save and the love that He demonstrated toward even those that were hurting Him is a testament to the savior He truly was!
How can anyone not like Him?
So God waves the magic wand and everyone is perfect like the I-AM? Progression doesn't work that way....you have to earn your stars.
My hope is that I can be a good ambassador to you for my beliefs and that these discussions will lead you back to church (and no it most certainly doesn't have to be mine). People can love and do so even with botched up doctrines. The question is if you are the kind of person that could worship and love in "ignorance". It's much harder to choose to be "ignorant" once your eyes have been opened to deeper levels of truth and knowledge. It sometimes creates a feeling of separation from those who don't share that perspective with you.
So my beliefs are quite different from many of the common churches who teach that you must believe the way that they do to avoid eternal damnation. The Spirit of what is taught is much more important than the letter of the law (even though the letter of the law is so fun to argue ).
I noticed that your profile says that you are from Ohio. I'm originally from Indianapolis and spent alot of time at a little amusement park in Ohio called "King's Island". Is it still there and have you ever been there?
Do they still have a roller coaster called "The Beast"?
Just wondering....
You say that he died on the cross due to the ignorance and violence of humankind, but it was part of god's plan also, was it not, (it was prophesied long before--according to the bible--that the messiah would suffer greatly)?
It was the way god chose for our sins to be forgiven...all I'm saying is that he could have chosen a different way, and why didn't he?
But why do we have to earn stars? Is this some kind of game show for god to watch? Does he have bets with the angels over who might reach star #500 first or something?
Doesn't it bother you that you are turning your back on so called 'deeper levels of truth' and choosing to be ignorant?
Aren't you ever interested that by exploring those deeper levels you may come to new conclusions?
Maybe it's just a matter of different personalities, but personally, once I get a taste of something, I can't just ignore it.
I commend you for taking your beliefs and making them your own. Too many people believe in Christianity because they were born into a family who believes in Christianity, and if they'd been born Muslim would just as easily be Muslim. Those people never question their faith or embark on real spiritual journies. It seems to me that you have, and that makes debating you very rewarding!
[/quote]Ah yes! King's Island is alive and well--and growing exponentially every year! The Beast is still there, and is still the longest wooden coaster, but has been overshadowed some by The Son of Beast, which is the world's only wooden coaster with upside down loops! The park is very much the same as it's always been at it's core, but new rides keep it spreading outwards! If you havn't been in awhile, I would highly recommend a visit!
The Bible also has many prophecies that still haven't been fulfilled to date. I don't believe that prophecy is fate. A prophecy is the declaration of a will of God already written into existence. Due to free will there are many destinies, some higher and some lower. Thes are the different "wills" of God that we can chose from with our free will.
You see, most christians will tell you that there is only one way into heaven. But the symbol of the Holy City of God is Jerusalem. And Jerusalem has twelve main gates!!! Not to mention all of the other lesser known ones. God is not limited to one path.....if God is rejected on one path, Am opens up another opportunity for salvation elsewhere.
Because God is pure love. And that love is unconditional. It is your choice as a free will agent whether to reciprocate or not. God's love is always there for you nonetheless.
I have the good fortune of attending a church of people that share my beliefs.
Partial truth is truth too.
Ceridwen018 said:destinata7,
The Bible also has many prophecies that still haven't been fulfilled to date. I don't believe that prophecy is fate. A prophecy is the declaration of a will of God already written into existence. Due to free will there are many destinies, some higher and some lower. Thes are the different "wills" of God that we can chose from with our free will.
Do you believe that god knows which 'will' we will choose? If he does, then don't you think that that becomes kind of a solitary option? I mean, if god already knows what we will do, then he can safely right up a solid 'plan'...technically, those other choices or 'wills' would have existed, but they're unnecessary because god knows anyway....does that make sense?
You see, most christians will tell you that there is only one way into heaven. But the symbol of the Holy City of God is Jerusalem. And Jerusalem has twelve main gates!!! Not to mention all of the other lesser known ones. God is not limited to one path.....if God is rejected on one path, Am opens up another opportunity for salvation elsewhere.
That is a very good and interesting analogy. I've talked to a couple of Christians outside of these forums who are very close-minded on how one can get to god...I think I'll take this idea for a spin on them if you don't mind!
Because God is pure love. And that love is unconditional. It is your choice as a free will agent whether to reciprocate or not. God's love is always there for you nonetheless.
Do you believe that people who don't accept god go to hell?
I have the good fortune of attending a church of people that share my beliefs.
That is good fortune indeed! I am lucky to have a couple close friends (Mr. Spinkles included) who share my thoughts. Atheism seems to be quite the minority so I feel very lucky that I've found people who support me and whom I can support. If anything, just having people to bounce ideas off of and stuff is a huge relief!
My intention here was not to give you more ammo against unsuspecting church-goers! I was hoping more to help impart to non-believers or those unsatisfied with the common conceptions of Biblical interpretations that there are different views of the Bible and God that do not contain the same apparent contradictions that some have noticed and had their "faith" destroyed by.
Remember, God in AM's highest form is Pure Love. I believe that hell is merely separation from love. Because of free will people must have the right to chose this separation.
So, yes, I believe that people who reject love are separated from it's most perfect form out of free will choice.
I still maintain that many atheists such as yourself have a belief in "God" but reject the typical church definitions of God because of the problematic effects some of these defintions are responsible for.
Ceridwen018 said:destinata7,
Haha, nice word games! How 'bout this one?
God is love
Love is blind
Ray Charles is blind
Therefore, Ray Charles is god!!
Remember, God in AM's highest form is Pure Love. I believe that hell is merely separation from love. Because of free will people must have the right to chose this separation.
So, yes, I believe that people who reject love are separated from it's most perfect form out of free will choice.
I like this idea. Most people say things like 'People who reject god have to live in eternal torture!'. This seems a bit sadistic to me--god punishing people for exercising their right to free-choice and not loving him! Your idea on the other hand, suggests that hell is not necessarily eternal brimstone, but rather the absence of god's love...which perhaps isn't so bad. Am I reading you right?
[/quote]I still maintain that many atheists such as yourself have a belief in "God" but reject the typical church definitions of God because of the problematic effects some of these defintions are responsible for.
I rejected my church about 2 years ago, yet still maintained my belief in god. It wasn't until last summer that I rejected god. Now, god only exists for me as a thought.
Ceridwen018 said:destinata7,
I have lost that bit of p\sychological benefit, but the gaps have been filled. No biggie.
I'm not saying that the 'psychological benefit' of god doesn't yeild real results, but I'm searching for truth here, not happiness.
As far as experiences with the holy spirit goes...when I believed in god, I would have said that I most certainly did...but now I recognize them as...I dunno, something simpler I guess. I ride horses--I love my horses and my riding more than anything else in the world. I used to feel like I was having a spiritual experince everytime I rode just because it affects me in a way nothing ever has. I still consider my riding to be a spiritual experience, but I don't attribute it to the holy spirit anymore (obviously).