Why do non-believers go to Hell?

[Lycan]

Maybe G-d knows every single infinite possible outcome but He chooses to give us the choice even if He knows the most likely outcome, we could still pick a less likely one and yet still it wouldn't take G-d by surprise because He knew that was one of an infinite number possibilities....but this would still be choosing on our part.

If god does not know the exact decision that will be made then he is not omniscient, or infallable.

Lycan

 

[Scuba Pete]

If god does not know the exact decision that will be made then he is not omniscient, or infallable.

And in a puff of pseudo logic God vanished.

 

[Lycan]

And in a puff of pseudo logic God vanished.

...and what part of my logic is deceitful? What is actually incorrect about that statement?

Lycan

 

[jewscout]

hmmm perhaps i should back up for a second....

In the Jewish tradition there are only 2 creatures in the world with free will
1. HaShem
2. Man

therefore man and G-d are in a partnership, hence the covenants that are made between the 2 parties, specifically the one between Noah and G-d and the one at Sinai. A partnership of the Creator and the creation. Just as G-d can influence our own lives so too can man beseech G-d and influence Him...which is why man shares the title "elohim" with the almight (Rashi on Exodus 22:7).

This gift is the immeasurable kindness the Sages speak of when they describe how the Almighty gives man the strength and intelligence to rebel against Him...The gift of free will is such an act of loving-kindness, because without the potential to rebel, man could never come close to his Creator

Without free will there is only the power of the Creator...which leaves creation an impotent and passive place. Without free will there is no difference between Hitler and the Pope.

 

[Lycan]

Without free will there is no difference between Hitler and the Pope

IMHO -

Freewill is not required for there to be differences. There are differences, they are just predetermined differences.

Lycan

 

[jewscout]

IMHO -

Freewill is not required for there to be differences. There are differences, they are just predetermined differences.

Lycan

ahhhh i see now...
IMHO-

free will is necessary for us to better ourselves and become closer to G-d.

Though i don't agree with you Lycan you make some good and thought provoking points. However i don't think that this will be a debate either of us will be willing to relinquish our positions (though it could happen )
but kudos to you Lycan!

 

[Lycan]

However i don't think that this will be a debate either of us will be willing to relinquish our positions (though it could happen )

I think you are right... hehe

Lycan

 

[michel]

Do they? That doesn't sound like the act of an ever-forgiving God who presumably would be saying "Well, since you didn't believe in me, you can go to hell!"
It just doesn't ring true, to me.

 

[Ardhanariswar]

"Do they? That doesn't sound like the act of an ever-forgiving God who presumably would be saying "Well, since you didn't believe in me, you can go to hell!"
It just doesn't ring true, to me."

i agree. the bible is very contradictory. the ot, God is all mighty and fierce, unforgiving. But in the NT, God is not there speaking directly to the people, he is there as Jesus, who is merciful and forgiving.... If God was Jesus, whats with the personality change?

I dont think God God would really *say* that non believers go to hell. It doesnt seem fair and just. Likewise with the harekrishnas of Hinduism, who say that the only way to heaven is through Krishna... which doesnt make sense to me either...

 

[Scuba Pete]

and what part of my logic is deceitful? What is actually incorrect about that statement?

It fails in a number of ways. You have created a premise that over simplifies the relationships, and then you have failed to support that premise. We could go on, but that's a good start.

 

[Lycan]

You have created a premise that over simplifies the relationships...

How?

...and then you have failed to support that premise

again How?

 

[Ronald]

If God had created the world and man to worship him and have someone to talk with in the cool of the evening, He would have made him without freewill, thus there would be no need for reproduction, Adam would be enough. No mankind with freewill to err. One or so of the lady members profess why didn't He create it perfect? Mankind with freewill who eagerly seek him and fellowship with him, is the most logical of man's attempt to fully know the mind of God. When it is time we will know the mind of God, we will be, as He is!

 

[Lycan]

If God had created the world and man to worship him and have someone to talk with in the cool of the evening, He would have made him without freewill, thus there would be no need for reproduction, Adam would be enough. No mankind with freewill to err. One or so of the lady members profess why didn't He create it perfect? Mankind with freewill who eagerly seek him and fellowship with him, is the most logical of man's attempt to fully know the mind of God. When it is time we will know the mind of God, we will be, as He is!

How does this refute what I have said? I want to know, how is it possible to have freewill with an omniscient god...

 

[Joannicius]

Maize, Lightkeeper-- finally, some rational Christians...I gain more respect for Unitarians all the time.

Corban-- the following statements make no sense:
1) God is all powerful, and wants everyone to go to heaven, but is unable to let people into heaven if they do not believe.
2) God is all powerful, and wants us to believe in Jesus etc., but would prefer not to provide any more evidence than a few ancient writings.
3) God has provided plenty of evidence to prove Jesus died for our sins etc., and people who do not beleive this know deep down that it is true, but simply do not 'want' to be saved.

This life is the time to prepare to meet God, it is the time to decide what type of people we want to be,

Your premise is that the ones declaring the above are representative of true Christianity, which I disagree. I base my understanding of Christianity on the teaching of The Church of antiquity - The Eastern Orthodox - who rely on the first seven Ecumenical Councils and the Fathers of the Faith to interpret what is of God and how He expresses His love for us.

My post:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9004

[font=&quot]Addresses this in detail so I won’t repeat it here.[/font]

 

[Doc]

Sorry if I am not on the topic of the moment. I did not want to read 16 pages only to make this simple statement.

I hear Christians and Muslims and Jews and all sorts of religions saying how if you do not believe in God, you are damned to the eternal fire..etc...etc...
Well how about this. Two brothers are born. When one grows up, he becomes a successful business man and is a faithful christian. The only problem is, he does nothing to tend to those in need. A church goer, but besides that he has really nothing to show for himself when it comes to good deeds and acts of kindness.
Well the other brother, despite hearing the good news just cant grasp religion or God or anything and doesn't have a faith in a particular religion. Yet he becomes a missionary for United Way or something like that. Thanks to him, lives are saved in some distant country and he although one of little faith, contributed a great deal to humanity.
When both die one day, which is more deserving of heaven? The faithful or the missionary of good deeds?

Thats why I think it is silly to say that you must believe this or you shall burn in hell sort of thing. Its not the robes that we wear, but instead it is the fruit that we share! Remember that!