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Featured Why do Christians follow the old testament?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Elliott, Sep 14, 2017.

  1. Rival

    Rival The Unicorn Noahide
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    :facepalm:
     
  2. Rival

    Rival The Unicorn Noahide
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    What about this?

    "And behold, the curtain of the Temple was rent in two, from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split; the tombs also were opened and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many." - Matthew 27:51-52.

    Surprised no Roman, Jewish, Greek or other records mention that.
     
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  3. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    I hope my statement afterwards made it clear what was meant. In scripture, we now think in terms of Spiritual Israel. The nation of Israel is not part of the picture any longer. Of course, the events in the Middle East may still be fulfilling some of the prophecies.
     
  4. Rival

    Rival The Unicorn Noahide
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    It's just that Christianity makes no sense and is just a tiny bit offensive towards the Jews. It took their scriptures and twisted the hell out of them to produce what they wanted it to say. They read the Tanach in light of the Christian testament instead of reading the Christian testament in light of the Tanach.
     
  5. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    Not resurrected like Christ was. Where angels were sitting in and on the tomb announcing the Messiah as risen from the dead.
     
  6. Elliott

    Elliott Member

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    What was the purpose of his resurrection?
     
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  7. Elliott

    Elliott Member

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    What is the jewish nation then if they have no connection to the "spiritual israel"?
     
  8. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    What was the purpose of His death? You must understand that before you can understand His resurrection.
     
  9. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    Examples of things changed:
    1. No longer is the circumcision of the flesh a requirement but rather a circumcision of the heart (although it was alluded to in the Tannakh. Jeremiah 4:4. Not that you can't circumcise the flesh... so it was changed.
    2. Now both Jews and Gentiles can be God's chosen although the Jews still have a special place in God's heart and plans as before.
    3. Of course the list can go on.
    Examples of things kept:

    1. You are to love your God with all of your heart, soul, body and strength
    2. You are to love your neighbor as yourself.
    3. The worship methods (Towdah, Shabach, Barach, Hallal etc)
    4. The realities of the benefits of the sacrificial lamb
    5. Of course the list can go on.
    So we view the Tannakh within the light of the Messiah... it isn't that we ignore the books of the Prophets in as much as they are still the foundation. But the biggest difference is that there is much that is for the Jews within the context of The Law whereas we view it within the context of the faith of Abraham, which came before the law, and the fulfillment of the what the Prophets wrote concerning the Messiah.

    Perhaps more Christians spend time in the NT because of its realities. The was the Old (will and) Testament and the New (will and) Testament which now supersedes the last will. The New (will and ) Testament went into effect when the death of the Testator was evident and has better promises (though includes much of the old as do most new wills and testaments)
     
    #69 KenS, Sep 15, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2017
  10. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Good question.

    Christians, what's your answer?

    .
     
  11. RedDragon94

    RedDragon94 Feeling Fine I guess

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    There was one covenant for the Jews and another for the rest of the world which came from the Jews.
     
  12. RedDragon94

    RedDragon94 Feeling Fine I guess

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    To show them that could not live up to his expectations.

    You really think stoning people for cursing their parents isn't merciless?
     
  13. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    If find this a fascinating assertion, and I would love to see it documented and assented to by Christians on this site. If that's the case, though, the initial question remains because of verses like Ex. 21:12-18, 28 and 22:15, 17 and 28. If the point is that one distills the mishpatim down to some generalized underlying idea, then one is not actually abiding by the mishpatim, but by that supposed universal rule. It also begs the question "who calls a particular rule a mishpat vs. a chok when the text does not explicitly label, and when the text does, who decides if the mishpat is the rule or the adjudication of a specific case?" Is allowing slavery reasonable (21:2-11)?
     
  14. Rival

    Rival The Unicorn Noahide
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    It is a complex issue and the Christian way of categorising the laws differ slightly from the Jewish way iirc. I remember reading in the back of my Common Prayer book the XXXIX Articles of Faith that one need only follow 'the laws which are called moral'. Still, it's not an issue I'm particularly knowledgeable about and Christianity is far too fragmented to appear to give a unified/coherent answer at this point.

    See number VII
    Anglicans Online | The Thirty-Nine Articles
     
    #74 Rival, Sep 15, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2017
  15. sun rise

    sun rise "Let there be peace and love among all"
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    Yes and yes. It's part of the OT and it's in the text of the NT.
     
  16. Rival

    Rival The Unicorn Noahide
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    I politely suggest that you do a little more research on how the Jewish courts at the time worked and how difficult it was to convict a person.
     
  17. Rival

    Rival The Unicorn Noahide
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    Yep. Noachidism :D
     
  18. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    Well, it shall be admitted that a surface view of the teachings may seem confusing when all of a sudden in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Micah, etc. Israel should be understood as Spiritual Israel.
    I don't see how it is offensive though while, of course, the Jews would be offended when they are told they no longer are God's people.

    Please refer to what James said in one verse. The time is probably somewhere before the fall of Jerusalem, the nation of Israel is still intact:
    James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are of the Dispersion, greeting.​

    James is here speaking to Spiritual Israel that is not living in a single location, nation, on earth. Thus, James calls Spiritual Israel the twelve tribes ... in the dispersion. (paraphrased a little) From this and from Rev ch. 7 we can see in that chapter, tribes with names that do not fit the fleshly Israel tribe names, that we indeed are talking about a Spiritual Israel.

    This is actually good, because as Paul, the wall dividing the Gentiles and Israel has been torn down so that on baptism, Gentiles and fleshly Jews both become Spiritual Jews part of Israel.

    God is not a tribal small national God of a minute nation in the Middle East. He is a God for all mankind. This is where there is no offense, only what is good and correct.
     
  19. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    What are the Russians, Irish, British, German?

    Instead of Israel, the one with the genetic inheritance, being God's people
    , we now have as Paul said:
    Ephesians 2:14:For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition, ​
    the situation in which anyone from any national groups on earth may become one of God's people. God is not a God for a small nation in the Middle East, he is God of all mankind, and all people may if they desire become part of that Israel (the spiritual one)
    Acts 17:26 and he made of one every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed seasons, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 that they should seek God, if haply they might feel after him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us: ​
    God is no longer fighting the war against the Philistines or the Egyptians for a fleshly Israel. Though, it is clear that fleshly Israel is being used in some manner to make the end prophesies come true.

    Since the death of Christ, God is a God of all mankind, should each one of these national groups search for him and desire to serve him obediently.
     
  20. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    How or why do people categorize all Christians as being the same, When not all Christians are the same.

    When Christ Jesus was here on earth, Jesus spoke about how many would come in his name, saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many" Matt 24:4-5, Mark 13:5-6.

    So who are those that comes in the name of Christ?
    Christians are the only people that comes professing to be Christ followers.

    Notice Christ is abbreviated for Christian
    Christ = Christian.

    Therefore you have two groups of people professing to be Christ followers.

    Now the question comes, how are you to know the difference between the two?

    The true Christian does not Cherry pick Throughout the Scriptures, these Christians will do what is commanded them to do, that is Chapter by Chapter and Verse by Verse Throughout the Scriptures.
    Isaiah 28:10-13.

    However you will find other Christians are taught by man's teachings, that this of Isaiah means to take one verse of the Bible and use it to parallel to another verse in the Bible.
    This is what is called Cherry picking in the bible ( Scriptures )
    This is what pastors, preachers, do in the bible ( Scriptures ) they only pick out what they want to go by and hand it to their congregations and then the people go out handing out what they have been taught by man's teachings.

    So is it any wonder why Christ Jesus said that many shall come in his name and shall deceive many. Christ = Christians?

    Notice here in Matthew 7:21-23. Note here Jesus saying, "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? And in your name have cast out devils? And in your name done many wonderful works?"

    What group of people are going about witnessing in Christ name and professing to do many wonderful works in Christ name?
    There are many Christians that can not handle Christ Jesus talking about them, that will try to twist these words of Christ around to try and get his words to say another, when in fact they are the very ones that Christ Jesus is speaking about.

    These Christians will go about speaking about a Rapture, which Christ Jesus nor any of the disciples said anything about.

    This is where they take the bible
    ( Scriptures ) and twist them into saying what they want them to say to support their Agenda's.

    Let's see it is said by Christian Scholars, that on September 23,2017 the end of the world will happen, and the church will be Raptured out.
    I will guarantee you, nothing's is going to happen.All because there are Prophecy in the bible ( Scriptures ) that is yet to be fulfilled.
    In the book of Revelation alone, God gave a Prophecy that is to be the last and final Prophecy to happen. And when this Prophecy happens Christ Jesus returns.
    Christ Jesus will not return until this Prophecy takes Place.
    You can read about this Prophecy in the book of Revelation Chapter 11.

    When the two witnesses of God are killed and then God calls them back up to heaven and then the 7th Trumpet will sounds, and then Christ Jesus returns.
    This is the last and final Prophecy to happen.Christ Jesus will not return until this last and final Prophecy happens.

    This Prophecy is what brings an end to the Tribulation.
     
    #80 Faithofchristian, Sep 16, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2017
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