why did they want to crucify jesus

[free spirit]

Let me remind you I was referring to extremely righteous people by saying what you are quoting and you added the word "all".

It would be dishonest of me if I put word in your mouth. I do not do that.

 

[free spirit]

Let me remind you I was referring to extremely righteous people by saying what you are quoting and you added the word "all".


Free spirit, we were conducting the discussion just fine talking about the bible and the Quraan. We are talking about what Islam is and what Christianity is. We are not talking about the violence people bring in with them. So let us not get into what people do and claim it to be in the name of the religion because that would mean all religions are guilty.

As I remember, and for what it is worth, the part you quoted is the only thing that I told you that it may not make sense to you.

This is according to a scholar in Islam called Ibn Al Qayyem

The sinner will find darkness in his heart, which he will feel just as he feels the darkness of night. So this darkness affects his heart as the physical darkness affects his vision. For obedience is light and disobedience is darkness. The stronger the darkness grows, the greater becomes his confusion, until he falls into innovation, misguidance and other things that lead to doom, without even realizing, like a blind man who goes out in the darkness of the night, walking alone This darkness grows stronger until it covers the eyes, then it grows stronger until it covers the face, which appears dark and is seen by everyone. ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Abbaas said: “Good deeds make the face light, give light to the heart, and bring about ample provision, physical strength and love in people’s hearts. Bad deeds make the face dark, give darkness to the heart, and bring about physical weakness, a lack of provision and hatred in people’s hearts.”

Think about this the way you think, but I saw both kinds of people in my every day life. I really know what it means to look in a face of person and see his face full of light.

However, regarding everything else I quoted in the Quraan and from Hadiths, I am sure that you can match some of them to what you actually find in the bible.


I think I didn't take time to thank you for you asking me about my belief and being concerned for my search for truth so I thank you for that.

Yes our two religions have similarities, and most religious people are happy with that. But I know that there is one God, one faith, and one hope of our call; and I also know that Christ is alive looking for faithfuls to lead to God. That fact pulls us apart as far as the East is from the West. I know that Jesus surpasses Mahomet in everything. Because Jesus was a man and yet never sinned, never wrote a book, Jesus never got married, Jesus was pour, He preached to love your enemy, Jesus died for humanity, He preached to turn the other cheek, Jesus is alive and he is my advocate. Please correct me if I am wrong. Mahomet was a fleshly man because he was reach, he was a leader of army, he had an harem, even children were part of his harem. There are many men like him, but there is only one Jesus, my Lord.

 

[free spirit]

What I believe in, is irrelevant, because I am not a Christian, one-answer. (I'm an agnostic, in case, you don't know or you have forgotten.)

Let's get one thing straight, "belief", especially religious belief, is not something I value highly, and believe me, I do value "faith" even less, because I see all "religious" faith as blind.

I'd rather deal with what sources are available, and tried to understand them. I have tried to do that with all the literature that I read. The literature could be the newspapers or magazines that I've been reading, or it could be physics or textbooks, or it could be historical, mythological or religious (scriptures or their exegesis).

Understanding what I read is far more important to me that believing what I read.

Do not confuse "understanding" with "belief", because they are not the same thing. Of course, sometimes understanding and belief, go in hand-in-hand, for a religious person such as yourself or for any Christian, Jew, Hindu, etc.

But the problem with religious people is that they often biased, when it comes to their own respective scriptures, that they have developed tunnel-vision syndrome, when it come to their scriptures or their religions, versus everyone else's religions.

Do you understanding what I am saying?

Asking what I "believe" in, is pointless.

In any case, any information that I share with you - my understanding, my view or my interpretation - you are going to dismiss it, because you are already have your mind set on Islam and the Islamic version, and can't see beyond your bias.

You would choose to say that I am wrong, instead of learning what (knowledge) I have to share... in fact, you have already done so -



I have already explain what I have learned (when I had talked about Jesus' crucifixion is like sacrifice), and yet, you are asking me for more.

Clearly, I had wasted my time and effort in writing my 1st reply, because you refused to understand what I had written the first time around.

Why do you want me to repeat myself?

And if I expand even further, would you understand the next post, or would you still ask for more?

What you say here is also valid for you; for you also have a blind biased. You are afraid to explore your own spirituality. look within yourself God is personal and He is in all of us.

 

[Sabour]

To ask something is not worship; I was right in saying that to you; most believers have no idea of how to warship.

Come again? I didn't understand what you are hitting at.

I have read the 6 pages on the "image of God." I entirely agree with his arguments; Yes God has no image, shape or form. For how can you give "cognition" an image, shape or form. And that is exactly the image that men has received from God in the beginning. But there is more for the love of God for humanity has no limits, He came in the form of a man to create a man worthy to receive His fullness,

I can't see how you agree at first and than add things later that contradict it.

There is not man worthy to receive his fullness. Stop limiting God.

The above statement is confirmed in John 16:13-15, for we read: “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He shall glorify Me; for He shall take of mine, and shall disclose it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said, that He takes of Mine, and will disclose it to you.”

That is a major problems people have with the bible. They make up a claim and than quote an out of context verse to make it say what they previously implied.

These verses are talking about a comforter to come. They don't say what you make them say. That is the problem friend.

You are so busy preaching and proving that you are correct instead of examining well of whether you are correct or not.

So far all that I have seen you doing is avoiding the verses which contradict what you are saying. And stop blaming people for not believing.

In order for something to be true it has to be logical and proved. That is how one comes to believe something. First convince and than belief. It is not belief and than becoming convinced. That is like one choosing to close his eyes !!!

 

[Sabour]

Yes our two religions have similarities, and most religious people are happy with that. But I know that there is one God, one faith, and one hope of our call

And yet you insist that Jesus peace be upon him was god, or lord or whatever you are calling him.

I know that Jesus surpasses Mahomet in everything

As for me as a muslim, that would be not something to discuss because they are all prophets from God, but let me entertain the points you are raising from the bible.

Because Jesus was a man and yet never sinned

What us your point here? Because he never sinned he will be like a deity? I don't understand your point? What are the sins of Muhammad peace be upon him?

Prophets were examples to follow and were of the highest essence of morality because they used to live the message that they came to share.


I would like you to tell me what the two stories "the lost sheep" and "the story of the two brothers where one of them has sinned and came back to his father" illustrate. Is what you are saying here a christian thing to do?

Last time I checked, Christianity teaches that a man who repents is better than a man who doesn't sin.

never wrote a book

Muhammad peace be upon him never wrote a book, Quraan was revelation and the Word of God. Before you come to this conclusion, at least verify that,

He preached to love your enemy

And Muhammad peace be upon him said that no body would be a believer unless he loves for his brother what he loves for himself (brother in humanity)

What is your point?

He preached to turn the other cheek

Exodus
24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

he was a leader of army

Matthew 10:34 34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

I don't know what your point is ?

 

[Sabour]

It is sufficient to say that there are many false believes in Christianity, for the devil hate Christianity, and he works hard to disrupt God's truth. First he killed God's Son, then he persecuted His Son's followers and then the devil disseminate tares in the Holy Word of God. Many Christians have abandoned the worship of God, for the worship of a book that they themselves confess not to understand.

Yes do be a true Christian you have to do good works, not to get salvation for yourself, but to bring salvation to others. For it is said that one cannot love God if he doesn't love is neighbour.

Or it could be only false interpretations, people not reading the bible trying to understand, following own desires, having many different versions of the bible, taking thing out of context ......

 

[free spirit]

And yet you insist that Jesus peace be upon him was god, or lord or whatever you are calling him.



As for me as a muslim, that would be not something to discuss because they are all prophets from God, but let me entertain the points you are raising from the bible.



What us your point here? Because he never sinned he will be like a deity? I don't understand your point? What are the sins of Muhammad peace be upon him?

Prophets were examples to follow and were of the highest essence of morality because they used to live the message that they came to share.


I would like you to tell me what the two stories "the lost sheep" and "the story of the two brothers where one of them has sinned and came back to his father" illustrate. Is what you are saying here a christian thing to do?

Last time I checked, Christianity teaches that a man who repents is better than a man who doesn't sin.



Muhammad peace be upon him never wrote a book, Quraan was revelation and the Word of God. Before you come to this conclusion, at least verify that,



And Muhammad peace be upon him said that no body would be a believer unless he loves for his brother what he loves for himself (brother in humanity)

What is your point?



Exodus
24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.



Matthew 10:34 34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

I don't know what your point is ?

1) Jesus is King and Priest, or He is a Sovereign and a Servant, He has first place in everything.
2) Jesus died without sin, the only man to do that, therefore God glorified Him.
3) Muhammad was a fleshly man, he accumulate for himself earthly riches, power women for his lusts, he also made war. All these things tells me that he was not holy or a man from God. Even today we need to judge by their life stile the preachers that claim to speak for God.
4) Did Muhammad write the Quran?
5) " Love your brother as you love yourself" it is vastly different from your verse. "that no body would be a believer unless he loves for his brother what he loves for himself"
6) Jesus has abolished the old testament; the New Testament is the present contract between men and God.
7) The sword is the sword of the spirit, therefor it is the WORD of God.

 

[free spirit]

Or it could be only false interpretations, people not reading the bible trying to understand, following own desires, having many different versions of the bible, taking thing out of context ......

That too.

 

[Noel]

To give you a simple answer, Jesus died for what the Jewish pharisees considered blasphemy against their religion. So they crucified him, but from a christian point of view, not only is it that, it was to fulfill the prophecies in the old testament about the coming savior

 

[outhouse]

Jesus died for what the Jewish pharisees considered blasphemy against their religion

I think this has been a severe misunderstanding in Christianity for a very long time.

Teaching Aramaic Galilean Judaism in the temple with thousands of other teachers and healers that were very diverse in belief with a half a million people in attendance, probably would not get you noticed at all. You would have had teachers teaching in 3 languages, Aramaic, Hebrew, and Koine Greek. It would have been so noisy no ones speech or teaching would stand out from the massive crowd.

Causing trouble in a temple with almost half a million people that were angry about being oppressed not only by the Romans but the corrupt temple government, does get you noticed by Romans policing the event and placed on a cross, and that is what we see historically speaking.

He died from a Roman crime and punishment.

 

[free spirit]

I think this has been a severe misunderstanding in Christianity for a very long time.

Teaching Aramaic Galilean Judaism in the temple with thousands of other teachers and healers that were very diverse in belief with a half a million people in attendance, probably would not get you noticed at all. You would have had teachers teaching in 3 languages, Aramaic, Hebrew, and Koine Greek. It would have been so noisy no ones speech or teaching would stand out from the massive crowd.

Causing trouble in a temple with almost half a million people that were angry about being oppressed not only by the Romans but the corrupt temple government, does get you noticed by Romans policing the event and placed on a cross, and that is what we see historically speaking.

He died from a Roman crime and punishment.

You are greatly mistaken. Just show me a verse in the NT which portrays the Romans in a bad light. Pilate tried to save Jesus. At that time the Romans were allied and protectors of the Jews, it was much later that things went savour.
Furthermore, We all know that the high priest’s will was to have Jesus put to death by execution, for we read in John 11:48-50: “’If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.’ But a certain one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, ‘You know nothing at all, nor do you take into account that it is expedient for us that one man should die, and that the whole nation should not perish.’”
The above verses make the reasoning and intention of the high priest clear. He is mainly afraid that his influential position and the Jewish religion will be abolished by the Romans because they all thought that if Jesus was not stopped, eventually the entire congregation would believe in Him and there would be no longer any need for their office and their religion (or nation.) In a nutshell we can confidently say that the high priest had Jesus put to death so that his influential office and the Jewish religion could continue its existence.

 

[Flankerl]

At that time the Romans were allied and protectors of the Jews,

Yeah uhm how did the Herodian Dynasty come to power again?
What happened to the entire Sanhedrin?

Just show me a verse in the NT which portrays the Romans in a bad light.

It's as if there might be a deeper reason for it.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Causing trouble in a temple with almost half a million people that were angry about being oppressed not only by the Romans but the corrupt temple government, does get you noticed by Romans policing the event and placed on a cross, and that is what we see historically speaking.

I'm sure all that's true, but isn't it what Jesus had in mind all along?

 

[Noel]

I think this has been a severe misunderstanding in Christianity for a very long time.

Teaching Aramaic Galilean Judaism in the temple with thousands of other teachers and healers that were very diverse in belief with a half a million people in attendance, probably would not get you noticed at all. You would have had teachers teaching in 3 languages, Aramaic, Hebrew, and Koine Greek. It would have been so noisy no ones speech or teaching would stand out from the massive crowd.

Causing trouble in a temple with almost half a million people that were angry about being oppressed not only by the Romans but the corrupt temple government, does get you noticed by Romans policing the event and placed on a cross, and that is what we see historically speaking.

He died from a Roman crime and punishment.

But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.- Matthew 12:14

He had been healing and preaching to a lot of people, and was gaining a lot of attention.

 

[Sabour]

Jesus died without sin, the only man to do that, therefore God glorified Him.

You don't get to create your own cause and effect. Who said that if a person won't sin God would glorify him. You also seemed to ignore the stories of the sheep and the man who sinned and came back to his father. The two stories imply that God, who you call Father, loves more the son who repents. Based on that teaching, God would have glorified those who repented. Free Spirit or Mario, I think it is time for you to challenge what you preach. I am raising you points which seem that you don't want to answer or think about. Is that what Jesus peace be upon him wants you to do? If he was today in front of you, wouldn't he be telling you seek the truth with your heart and the truth shall free you? Wouldn't he tell you not to worship him quoting "in vain they worship me"?

3) Muhammad was a fleshly man, he accumulate for himself earthly riches, power women for his lusts, he also made war. All these things tells me that he was not holy or a man from God. Even today we need to judge by their life stile the preachers that claim to speak for God.

I suggest you go read his biography before you say somethings you are unaware of.

These things tell you nothing because you simply know nothing about what you are saying. Muhammad peace be upon him is the comforter that Jesus peace be upon him talked about. He is the one who matches with Isaiah 29:12

4) Did Muhammad write the Quran?

Quraan verses where reveal to prophet Muhammad peace be upon him through angel Gabriel and he used to call scribes to record the verses revealed.

5) " Love your brother as you love yourself" it is vastly different from your verse. "that no body would be a believer unless he loves for his brother what he loves for himself"

Yes true. "no body would be a believer" has a stronger impact. So yes I agree they are somehow different. You have to know what " no body would be a believer" means for a muslim. This condemns him.

7) The sword is the sword of the spirit, therefor it is the WORD of God.

Now how will you twist " I didn't come in peace" meaning to make it not contradict what you said?

Additionally, what does it mean if you don't have a sword buy one?? Are we on a game show?

Free spirit, I think my case is obvious here, it is clear that the verses are not what you are trying to say;

 

[outhouse]

But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.- Matthew 12:14

You have to remember, these unknown authors were writing to and for Roman gentile audiences, Paul was a Roman citizen writing for his brothers in the diaspora.

This movement was divorcing cultural Judaism and trying to make Jews look like the bad guys and play down Romans guilt in Jesus death. They did not want to be persecuted like the Jews so they distanced themselves from Judaism and downplayed the Roman involvement.

The Sadducees were a known hated group who ran the temple, because they worked hand in hand with the Roman oppressors. many Pharisees fit this bill too, while many Pharisees matched Galilean Zealots philosophy. This passage can echo hatred of some Pharisees historically speaking more so then any plot to kill a teacher.

He had been healing and preaching to a lot of people, and was gaining a lot of attention.

No way to know how famous he was before his death and martyrdom. None of the books were written by any eyewitnesses, and all were writing decades after the fact.

Again, go to a concert with a half a million people and scream at the top of your lungs, your not getting noticed.

Now during this time Pilate and Caiaphas required one thing, and that was peace. Any act against that and you would not a get a trial, you would be doomed to a cross. The crowds were already uneasy and they had a lot to be mad about.

 

[outhouse]

Romans were allied and protectors of the Jews

You might want to read up a little on history from this period, as Romans were factually oppressing cultural Jews.

How the Jews Lived During Jesus' Time

Everything about Roman occupation was hateful to the Jews, from oppressive taxes to physical abuse by Roman soldiers to the repugnant idea that the Roman leader was a god. Repeated efforts at gaining political independence ensued to no avail. Finally, first-century Jewish society was devastated in 70 A.D. when Roman legions under Titus sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple. The loss of their religious center crushed the spirits of first-century Jews, and their descendants have never forgotten it.

 

[free spirit]

Yeah uhm how did the Herodian Dynasty come to power again?
What happened to the entire Sanhedrin?




It's as if there might be a deeper reason for it.

At that time there was a civil war between two brothers claiming the Hebrews throne, Rome was asked to intervene from one of the brother, which was the high priest. I do not know were the Herodian Dynasty came from. I know that the Sanhedrin was still working because we read in part in ACTS 5:2, "Now when the high priest and his associates had come, they called the council together even all the senate of the sons of Israel."

 

[free spirit]

You don't get to create your own cause and effect. Who said that if a person won't sin God would glorify him. You also seemed to ignore the stories of the sheep and the man who sinned and came back to his father. The two stories imply that God, who you call Father, loves more the son who repents. Based on that teaching, God would have glorified those who repented. Free Spirit or Mario, I think it is time for you to challenge what you preach. I am raising you points which seem that you don't want to answer or think about. Is that what Jesus peace be upon him wants you to do? If he was today in front of you, wouldn't he be telling you seek the truth with your heart and the truth shall free you? Wouldn't he tell you not to worship him quoting "in vain they worship me"?




I suggest you go read his biography before you say somethings you are unaware of.

These things tell you nothing because you simply know nothing about what you are saying. Muhammad peace be upon him is the comforter that Jesus peace be upon him talked about. He is the one who matches with Isaiah 29:12



Quraan verses where reveal to prophet Muhammad peace be upon him through angel Gabriel and he used to call scribes to record the verses revealed.


Yes true. "no body would be a believer" has a stronger impact. So yes I agree they are somehow different. You have to know what " no body would be a believer" means for a muslim. This condemns him.


Now how will you twist " I didn't come in peace" meaning to make it not contradict what you said?

Additionally, what does it mean if you don't have a sword buy one?? Are we on a game show?
Free spirit, I think my case is obvious here, it is clear that the verses are not what you are trying to say;

1)
You got all twisted up. Would you love a son who has committed sins more than the one who has not committed sins. Are you saying that to get more of the love of God we should sin? this is insanity in its purest forme.
2)Muhammad history is well known, he was a great man of the world but certainly he was not a man of God.
3)
Yes also the man that started the Mormon church received his revelation from an angel.
4)
You wrote "that no body would be a believer unless he loves for his brother what he loves for himself"
This is like saying: "he should wish for his brother what he wishes for himself." it is a good intention but it is not of God
5) No I am not in a game show, we read in Ephesians 6:17, "And take the helmet of salvation, and the eword of the spirit, which is the word of God," and we read in Hebrews 4:12, "For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword , and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joint and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart."

 

[outhouse]

Rome was asked to intervene

Conquered and asked is the same thing ?

History of ancient Israel and Judah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In 63 BCE the Roman general Pompey conquered Jerusalem and made the Jewish kingdom a Client state of Rome.