Why Did God Make Moses

[thebigpicture]

It makes a difference because Jews don't believe that Jesus was divine, or a prophet, or had any greater link to God than any other human being. And what his followers teach is contradictory to the Jewish way, which we believe God does wish us to follow. We also don't believe in a concept of "original sin," from which we would require "salvation."

I think you might’ve misunderstood what I was saying. I know the difference between Christianity and Judaism. What I was saying is what difference would it make to “god” who you were. He wouldn’t make one set of ones for some and a different set of rules for others. He loved them all the same and would make the same rules.

Obviously, if non-Jews choose to believe those things, that is none of our affair. And there is nothing in mainstream Jewish understanding of other faiths that says that if non-Jews believe that, and do right and good in the world, that God won't reward them: as long as they do the right and the good, we think He likely will reward them just the same, incorrect theology notwithstanding. But non-Jews are free to do and believe many things which Jews are not free to do or believe: that is the nature of our covenant with God.

That would be like saying, “These are the rules and everyone must follow. But if you don’t, that’s okay too. In the end, you’ll all be rewarded just the same.” What would be the point of making rules if the result would be the same whether or not everyone followed them. That would be something done in vain, and doesn’t it say in the bible that god does not do anything in vain?

 

[Levite]

I think you might’ve misunderstood what I was saying. I know the difference between Christianity and Judaism. What I was saying is what difference would it make to “god” who you were. He wouldn’t make one set of ones for some and a different set of rules for others. He loved them all the same and would make the same rules. That would be like saying, “These are the rules and everyone must follow. But if you don’t, that’s okay too. In the end, you’ll all be rewarded just the same.” What would be the point of making rules if the result would be the same whether or not everyone followed them. That would be something done in vain, and doesn’t it say in the bible that god does not do anything in vain?

This is where we differ. A central tenet of Judaism is that God made a covenant with the People Israel, which is embodied in Torah. We are asked to do things and take certain responsibilities from which other peoples are free. And we presume that other peoples have their own relationships with God, and their own ways of seeking and dealing with truths, which are fine for them, and not meant for us.

God may (and, we believe, does) love everyone the same, but that doesn't have to mean (and doesn't mean, in Jewish understanding) that He expects precisely the same things from everyone, in precisely the same ways. That wouldn't make any more sense than God decreeing that everyone in the world should be a doctor, or an opera singer. Different people (and different peoples) have different ranges of talents, bents, opporunities, desires, etc., and we presume that God treats us as such.

 

[thebigpicture]

This is where we differ. A central tenet of Judaism is that God made a covenant with the People Israel, which is embodied in Torah. We are asked to do things and take certain responsibilities from which other peoples are free. And we presume that other peoples have their own relationships with God, and their own ways of seeking and dealing with truths, which are fine for them, and not meant for us.

God may (and, we believe, does) love everyone the same, but that doesn't have to mean (and doesn't mean, in Jewish understanding) that He expects precisely the same things from everyone, in precisely the same ways. That wouldn't make any more sense than God decreeing that everyone in the world should be a doctor, or an opera singer. Different people (and different peoples) have different ranges of talents, bents, opporunities, desires, etc., and we presume that God treats us as such.

Yes, we definitely disagree because it just doesn’t make sense to me to have different rules for different people. Even with human regulations there are situations where everyone has to follow the same set of rules. Not everyone has to be an attorney, but if you want to be an attorney you have to take and pass the exact same bar exam as every other aspiring attorney has to take and pass. When there are so many different rules, it creates chaos and confusion because the rules are always so different. Different countries having different rules is an example. What’s considered perfectly cordial in one country is totally unacceptable and considered a complete insult in others. What is perfectly legal to do in one country will land you behind bars in another. With there being so many different rules and regulations all over the world, it can be confusing and downright frustrating trying to keep up with it all. So why would “god” create that kind of chaos and confusion? How would that make any sense?

 

[Levite]

Yes, we definitely disagree because it just doesn’t make sense to me to have different rules for different people. Even with human regulations there are situations where everyone has to follow the same set of rules. Not everyone has to be an attorney, but if you want to be an attorney you have to take and pass the exact same bar exam as every other aspiring attorney has to take and pass. When there are so many different rules, it creates chaos and confusion because the rules are always so different. Different countries having different rules is an example. What’s considered perfectly cordial in one country is totally unacceptable and considered a complete insult in others. What is perfectly legal to do in one country will land you behind bars in another. With there being so many different rules and regulations all over the world, it can be confusing and downright frustrating trying to keep up with it all. So why would “god” create that kind of chaos and confusion? How would that make any sense?

Well, obviously, not being God, I can't give you the real answer.

But my (at least partial) guess might be that God values diversity and multiple viewpoints, and might find monotonous uniformity to be less interesting.

I know I certainly would feel that way.

 

[Cordoba]

But why not just jump to the conclusion instead of sticking to the whole plan? He is planning it but takes the long way around.

God's main Guidance never changed

The "right" religion (according to the Abrahamic Faiths) has always been Monotheism, the belief in the One and Only Creator and Sustainer of the universe

What did evolve with time however, since Adam and Noah to Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace be upon them all, is some details of the Divine Law

 

[The Sum of Awe]

God's main Guidance never changed

The "right" religion (according to the Abrahamic Faiths) has always been Monotheism, the belief in the One and Only Creator and Sustainer of the universe

What did evolve with time however, since Adam and Noah to Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace be upon them all, is some details of the Divine Law

But it's like knowing the answer to an experiment 100% but doing the experiment anyway...

 

[Cordoba]

It's not an experiment, but an evolution of Divine Law with the changes and phases of maturity of mankind

Some details of Jewish Law were harsh, and God revealed to Jesus that they would be relaxed

But the core foundation of Monotheism and the 10 Commandments did not change ...

 

[The Sum of Awe]

It's not an experiment, but an evolution of Divine Law with the changes and phases of maturity of mankind

The Divine Principle (Or plan.)

Some details of Jewish Law were harsh, and God revealed to Jesus that they would be relaxed

But God knew the future (Omniscience) so why did He make these Jewish laws in the first place if He knew He'd have to kill Himself (in physical form) to change them?

But the core foundation of Monotheism and the 10 Commandments did not change ...

No? So people were punished more in the OT before Jesus came than after Jesus saved them... Why? I was told it was because Jesus didn't exist yet so God's rules were more strict, then again if God knew Jesus would come later why did he make them more strict?

 

[Cordoba]

But God knew the future (Omniscience) so why did He make these Jewish laws in the first place if He knew He'd have to kill Himself (in physical form) to change them?

Some articles in the Law were punishments for the children of Israel

God did not kill himself by the way

Jesus, peace be upon him, was a human being, he is not God, but God's Prophet.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Why update if God has a divine plan?

The Divine Plan is IMPLEMENTED through the Divine Messengers God sends and the teachings They deliver to humanity!

He is planning it but takes the long way around.

This is for the simple reason that like everything else in creation, humanity develops and evolves over time! And God presents in each Age what both best suits humanity's needs at that time and what we can understand and actually implement.


So if you want to look at it that way, the obstacle isn't God, but us.


Peace,

Bruce

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Some articles in the Law were punishments for the children of Israel

God did not kill himself by the way

Jesus, peace be upon him, was a human being, he is not God, but God's Prophet.

Then that would make it worse, killing a prophet for the laws He made.

Why did God change His mind? He is omniscient.

First He said we would be punished eternally for breaking 1 of the 10 commandments, then later He slaughtered a man to make us free of them.

 

[Dr. Nosophoros]

In the Abrahamic belief system God killed many by It's written man made edicts and in the end Joshua and his followers spread the kingdom of milk and honey by slaughtering man, woman, child, and beast if they stood in their way- in essence the Old Testament seems the first Mein Kampf.

 

[Levite]

In the Abrahamic belief system God killed many by It's written man made edicts and in the end Joshua and his followers spread the kingdom of milk and honey by slaughtering man, woman, child, and beast if they stood in their way- in essence the Old Testament seems the first Mein Kampf.

You certainly are under no obligation to agree with, or participate in, Jewish religion. No non-Jew is. But I don't see how that translates to the freedom to publicly make unprovoked offensive statements about our sacred texts and our history. And I have to tell you, as a Jew, that last remark is an awfully offensive statement.

 

[ChristineES]

You certainly are under no obligation to agree with, or participate in, Jewish religion. No non-Jew is. But I don't see how that translates to the freedom to publicly make unprovoked offensive statements about our sacred texts and our history. And I have to tell you, as a Jew, that last remark is an awfully offensive statement.

I have to agree with that. Especially comparing Jewish sacred texts to anything Hitler wrote can be considered very offensive to some people.

 

[Cordoba]

Then that would make it worse, killing a prophet for the laws He made.

Why did God change His mind? He is omniscient.

First He said we would be punished eternally for breaking 1 of the 10 commandments, then later He slaughtered a man to make us free of them.

According to the Muslim faith, God saved Jesus, peace be upon him, from that horrible death on the cross

He lifted Jesus up to heaven, so it was not him who was crucified

 

[The Sum of Awe]

According to the Muslim faith, God saved Jesus, peace be upon him, from that horrible death on the cross

He lifted Jesus up to heaven, so it was not him who was crucified

Though, He killed him right? What's the point of killing him even if He did take him to heaven?

 

[thebigpicture]

Well, obviously, not being God, I can't give you the real answer.

Very true. There are some things that we as humans cannot answer. But, I also have to say that I just feel if something is going to be taught as being the truth, then it should at least make sense. Don’t you?

But my (at least partial) guess might be that God values diversity and multiple viewpoints, and might find monotonous uniformity to be less interesting.

This isn’t how “god” is described in the Torah. In any case, I find it hard to believe that god would ever be bored with any system he puts into effect. If that were the case, then it could easily be assumed that he might be bored post-judgement when it is said that everyone will be on the same page.

 

[Levite]

Very true. There are some things that we as humans cannot answer. But, I also have to say that I just feel if something is going to be taught as being the truth, then it should at least make sense. Don’t you?

Judaism makes sense to me. And for the record Judaism tends to believe in "truths" not "Truth." We don't claim that there is only one right and correct way to understand or relate to God for everyone on earth. We only claim that Jews should follow Judaism.

But in any case, I'm not sure I agree that every scripture and every faith has to make perfect sense at the level of plain surface meaning. The world is more nuanced than that, and God certainly is, being the embodiment of paradoxes and arational concepts, as well as many rational truths.

This isn’t how “god” is described in the Torah.

First of all, I suppose that depends on how you interpret the Torah. Second of all, that depends on whether by "Torah" you include on the Written Torah, or the Oral Torah as well...since the two are really not supposed to be read as separate.

In any case, I find it hard to believe that god would ever be bored with any system he puts into effect.

Which would seem to argue for things being as they are, and not molded into uniform unanimity, since the former is what God has put into effect by creating us and interacting with us as He has done.

If that were the case, then it could easily be assumed that he might be bored post-judgement when it is said that everyone will be on the same page.

That depends on how one defines "on the same page." There are many traditional Jewish understandings of the perfected world or The World To Come that preserve elements of diversity and different understandings and differing opinions-- since those things are traditionally valued in our worldview and teachings.

 

[Ilisrum]

Though, He killed him right? What's the point of killing him even if He did take him to heaven?

The majority of Muslims don't believe he died in the first place.

"That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah. But they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not: Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise." (Quran; Sura 4, verse 157-158; Yusuf Ali Translation)

The whole Moses/Jesus myth is an enemy to logical thinking anyway. Particularly the "Christian" understanding, which you're so familiar with.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

The whole Moses/Jesus myth is an enemy to logical thinking anyway. Particularly the "Christian" understanding, which you're so familiar with.

Indeed.