Why did God create mortal bodies?

[Trailblazer]

The problem is when and how you disagree. Have you built a relationship of trust and respect with them? Sorry to say, I don't think so. With some people yes, but with others no.

I have an amiable relationship with all the Christians on this forum and with those of other religions. I cannot think of anyone I have a contentious relationship with. Building harmonious relationships with other people -- be they atheists or believers -- has been my primary goal, not teaching the Faith as other Baha'is consider so important. That was not always my goal but the past is gone and I have changed a lot by being on this forum.

More and more, I have come to realize what all religions share in common and I appreciate the Bible. That took some time, but I worked hard on it. I agree on all the spiritual truths in the Bible but one thing Baha'is and Christians are never going to agree on is the Return of Christ, because there is no way for Baha'is to agree with Christians and still be Baha'is. Even if a Baha'i conceded that Jesus rose from the dead that would not make any difference because we cannot agree that Jesus ascended into the clouds in the same body or that Jesus will return in the same body, since we believe that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ.

Often, to me, it seems like the Baha'is are also sounding like they are superior. "We have found the truth for today. Your religion has seen its spring and is now in its winter." Tough to do... to always be kind and respectful and to understand where the other person is coming from.

It is tough to do but it can be done if we make an effort and if we are aware of what we are saying and think of others and how other people might feel, instead of just trying to get our message across, which is egotistical. If we do not need to be right then we would not keep arguing when someone disagrees and it has been my goal to just present what I believe if it is related to a conversation I am having and not argue for it being true. I am a firm believer in free will so I do not want to convince anyone of what I believe, because then it would not be their decision.

All people suffer, but what bothers me is that God would add to it. If I were an uncompassionate Baha'i I'd tell you "God is testing you. He wants you to let go of your attachments to this world and fix your gaze on nothing else but him." What is cruel is... that attachment is your cats. It's almost as bad as that, hopefully fictitious, story about God wanting Abraham to sacrifice his only son. Who in real life would do that? Who would really believe that a loving God would even ask that? But here we are. You are a Baha'i. You are supposed to totally trust in God and detach yourself from all your worldly desires. Do you think this God is actually asking you to do this?

I do not have a problem with detaching from worldly desires because I do not have any worldly desires that run counter to the Baha'i Laws. What I do have a problem with is if a Baha'i says I am too attached to my cats and that I should be so detached that I do not suffer when they die. It is so cruel and insensitive to say that.

By the way, that is the reason I ended up posting on forums. I never even knew what an internet forum was until January 2013, when I first posted on Planet Baha'i. Before that, I had been doing a web search and I ran across a Baha'i who was telling another Baha'i on a forum that she would not be so torn apart when a cat died if she became more spiritual. Imagine someone saying that to a person who is grieving, and then just look at all the kind and compassionate people on this forum, Jews, Christians, atheists.

I chose the world. I walked away from both Christianity and the Baha'i Faith. Because, I knew at some point my life would be tested. Would I totally surrender to God, even if he asked me to go off to some strange land. I knew Christians and Baha'is that did do this. Would I? One Baha'i left his wife to go to some South Seas Island. You probably know the NT story about Jesus telling some guy to give away everything and follow him. The guy walked away. That's what I'd do. But you're a Baha'i. How can you walk away? How can you not trust that God will reward you with peace and joy in your heart for putting your trust totally in him?

I do not believe you have to choose between the world and God, not according to what Baha'u'llah wrote.

“Know ye that by “the world” is meant your unawareness of Him Who is your Maker, and your absorption in aught else but Him. The “life to come,” on the other hand, signifieth the things that give you a safe approach to God, the All-Glorious, the Incomparable. Whatsoever deterreth you, in this Day, from loving God is nothing but the world. Flee it, that ye may be numbered with the blest. Should a man wish to adorn himself with the ornaments of the earth, to wear its apparels, or partake of the benefits it can bestow, no harm can befall him, if he alloweth nothing whatever to intervene between him and God, for God hath ordained every good thing, whether created in the heavens or in the earth, for such of His servants as truly believe in Him. Eat ye, O people, of the good things which God hath allowed you, and deprive not yourselves from His wondrous bounties. Render thanks and praise unto Him, and be of them that are truly thankful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 276

But here is the thing.... I disagree with some other Baha'is regarding that passage because I think it just gives them an excuse to enjoy the things of this world. I am either going to take the Faith seriously or I am going to drop out. I am not a person to do things halfway. I believe that Baha'is are being called to service but not enough Baha'is take that seriously and that is one reason the Faith has not grown more. Shoghi Effendi even said this:

"There is so much suffering, such a great and desperate need for a true remedy and the Bahá’ís should realize their sacred obligation is to deliver the Message to their fellowmen at once, and on as large a scale as possible. If they fail to do so, they are really partly responsible for prolonging the agony of humanity."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, December 18, 1943)

I don't believe or trust any idea or concept of a God. I'll listen and then evaluate. I'll watch and see how the believers actually live their lives and how far they are willing to commit to their God.

So what are you going to do? Keep hating God or detach yourself from all your worldly desires and trust God. I hope you choose God. I'd like to see how it turns out. If bad, I'll keep hating God. If good, I'll think... TB did it, maybe I should let go and trust him too. But then, what's worse... what if there's just a bigger test after that? Good %&^*ing luck TB.

Let me make this clear. I do not hate God because I have to give up any worldly desires because I do not have any worldly desires. Is my love for my cats and all animals a worldly desire? I don't think so. If and when I hate God it is because a cat dies and I believe it is a test from God or I believe that it is God's fault because God created animals with mortal bodies; but is this just distorted thinking? I got the idea about the "tests" from my brother who is a Baha'i and other Baha'is, but is it really God doing this to me, or is it just life? I think it is just life and the thing is that after a few days of being angry at God because another cat dies and screaming at Him "I hate you" I settle back down into my normal stance -- "I don't love you God, I just don't feel anything for you, but I believe you exist because of Baha'u'llah." I do not love Baha'u'llah but I believe Him and I revere Him, but I never hate Him because after all, He did not create this world of suffering.

I do trust God, I just do not love God, so I hope that helps you. In my heart and mind, I know God is benevolent and wants what is in our best interests because of what is in the Bible and because of what Baha'u'llah wrote about God.... But obviously I have issues with God to work through, such as why God allows so much suffering. Maybe we can work through some of these issues together if you are game.

 

[Jedster]

a sin against the Spirit will not be forgiven

read that somewhere

hope it ain't true

Is this what you read/meant?

in the Gospel of St Thomas
"(44) Jesus says:

(1) “Whoever blasphemes against the Father, it will be forgiven him.
(2) And whoever blasphemes against the Son, it will be forgiven him.
(3) But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, neither on earth nor in heaven.”"
The Gospel of Thomas’s 114 Sayings of Jesus

 

[Trailblazer]

You think so?

Remember the Lord's Prayer in the Bible? Jesus taught his followers to pray, “Let thy Kingdom come, let Thy will be done on Earth.”
If we are to pray for God’s will to be done, that means God’s will is not happening now. But it will in the future, once those issues / challenges that were raised in the Garden (that I spoke to you about a few days back) are settled.

Revelation 21:3-4 is the fulfillment of the prayer, “Thy will be done on Earth”....

I believe that the Kingdom of God will be built on earth but that it will be built by humans, brick by brick. Bahai's call that The New World Order, and it includes a new system of governance:

“Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 7

Verses 3 & 4 says, “The Tent of God is with mankind.....and death will be no more.”
See also Psalms 115:16.

I believe these verses refer to spiritual death, not physical death. I do not believe that the physical body was designed to be immortal. I believe we will get spiritual bodies that will be immortal when we die and ascend to the spiritual world (heaven). I do not believe that God intended for any humans to live on earth forever.

But you’re right....eventually, the Earth would become overpopulated, if humans continued to procreate. And children are such a huge part of us, that I doubt Jehovah would cause us to stop procreating, completely.

That’s why I think, far in the future, and by then having the know-how, we will expand human civilization to other planets, with Jehovah’s guidance and support.

I believe that there are other worlds besides this world that our souls will go to when they get their immortal spiritual bodies, but none of these are physical worlds like this world, they are spiritual worlds.

“As to thy question concerning the worlds of God. Know thou of a truth that the worlds of God are countless in their number, and infinite in their range. None can reckon or comprehend them except God, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.” Gleanings, pp. 151-152

And here is my favorite....

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes.You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329

There is no way that we can understand what it even means to be in a spiritual world, because the only vantage point we have now is the earth world. Nobody knows where we will go, we just have beliefs, so we will just have to wait and see what happens when we die.

P.S. I just remembered these verses. Jesus says that in order to gain eternal life we must hate his life in this world. How can we do that if we are attached to living in this world forever?:

John 12:24-26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

 

[Thief]

Is this what you read/meant?

in the Gospel of St Thomas
"(44) Jesus says:

(1) “Whoever blasphemes against the Father, it will be forgiven him.
(2) And whoever blasphemes against the Son, it will be forgiven him.
(3) But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, neither on earth nor in heaven.”"
The Gospel of Thomas’s 114 Sayings of Jesus

yep.....and I think the quote can be found in the new testament as well

perhaps a thread is needed for this item?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I believe that the Kingdom of God will be built on earth but that it will be built by humans, brick by brick. Bahai's call that The New World Order, and it includes a new system of governance:

“Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 7

I believe these verses refer to spiritual death, not physical death. I do not believe that the physical body was designed to be immortal. I believe we will get spiritual bodies that will be immortal when we die and ascend to the spiritual world (heaven). I do not believe that God intended for any humans to live on earth forever.

I believe that there are other worlds besides this world that our souls will go to when they get their immortal spiritual bodies, but none of these are physical worlds like this world, they are spiritual worlds.

“As to thy question concerning the worlds of God. Know thou of a truth that the worlds of God are countless in their number, and infinite in their range. None can reckon or comprehend them except God, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.” Gleanings, pp. 151-152

And here is my favorite....

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes.You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329

There is no way that we can understand what it even means to be in a spiritual world, because the only vantage point we have now is the earth world. Nobody knows where we will go, we just have beliefs, so we will just have to wait and see what happens when we die.

P.S. I just remembered these verses. Jesus says that in order to gain eternal life we must hate his life in this world. How can we do that if we are attached to living in this world forever?:

John 12:24-26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

Appreciate your response.

I'd just like to make a distinction....
Everlasting life -- one having the ability to live on endlessly -- does not necessarily imply immortality.
(For humans, granted endless life, they would still need to eat, and breathe air. If they didn't, they would die.)
Take care.

 

[Trailblazer]

Appreciate your response.

I'd just like to make a distinction....
Everlasting life -- one having the ability to live on endlessly -- does not necessarily imply immortality.
(For humans, granted endless life, they would still need to eat, and breathe air. If they didn't, they would die.)
Take care.

I believe that in the scriptures everlasting life is synonymous with eternal life, and it is a state of the soul that is close to God.

By contrast, immortality refers to lasting forever:

Meaning of immortality in English
the quality of being able to live or last for ever: ...
IMMORTALITY | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

Since the physical body is mortal, we know that in the scriptures immortality refers to the soul (spirit). I believe that the human soul is immortal so all souls last forever, whether they are close to God or not.

According to Baha’i beliefs 1 Corinthians 15:12-22 is all about spiritual death, not physical death. Bodies once dead do not rise from graves. Souls leave the body and rise to heaven and take on a spiritual body comprised of heavenly elements in that spiritual realm. They then continue to exist for eternity. The souls who are spiritually alive have eternal life so they go to heaven the souls who are spiritually dead go to what is termed hell.

I believe that whenever Jesus referred to eternal life or everlasting life, He was referring a quality of life, loving God and being close to God, and we can have eternal life both in this world and in the next world (afterlife). Jesus was not referring to physical life of the body, since no physical body can live forever.

John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

I believe that the soul (spirit) of man is immortal so it can never be extinguished. All souls continue to exist forever, but some souls have eternal life and others don’t.

“The immortality of the spirit is mentioned in the Holy Books; it is the fundamental basis of the divine religions. Now punishments and rewards are said to be of two kinds: first, the rewards and punishments of this life; second, those of the other world. But the paradise and hell of existence are found in all the worlds of God, whether in this world or in the spiritual heavenly worlds. Gaining these rewards is the gaining of eternal life. That is why Christ said, “Act in such a way that you may find eternal life, and that you may be born of water and the spirit, so that you may enter into the Kingdom.” 2” Some Answered Questions, p. 223

“Likewise, the rewards of the other world are the eternal life which is clearly mentioned in all the Holy Books, the divine perfections, the eternal bounties and everlasting felicity….The rewards of the other world are peace, the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God in the world of eternity.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 224-225

Those people who are distant from God do not have eternal life, although their soul continues to exist in the spiritual world after their physical body dies.

“In the same way, the souls who are veiled from God, although they exist in this world and in the world after death, are, in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, nonexisting and separated from God.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 243

 

[thomas t]

While the victim, which might be completely innocent, didn't get any time to repent or accept Jesus, so they get thrown to hell, while the psychopathic murderer gets to go to heaven?

once a psychopatic murderer repents, they change in their hearts.
They are no longer murderer but a new creation as in 2 Corinthians 5:17. This is how Bible sees it.

What if it was a child?

then it's different, I think.

To then having the victim or all the people that knew the victim to come to an agreement with them and if they don't, they will be gotten rid off and the murderer doesn't have to be concerned about them anymore....

no that's not what I said. You're putting words in my mouth, that's not fair.
It's the other way around, it seems. It's like in the passage of Matthew 5:24 that I quoted. The one who committed the murder needs to come to an agreement with the former victim.

 

[Nimos]

no that's not what I said. You're putting words in my mouth, that's not fair.

I apologize if that were the case, I was merely trying to understand what you meant.

once a psychopatic murderer repents, they change in their hearts.
They are no longer murderer but a new creation as in 2 Corinthians 5:17. This is how Bible sees it.

2 Corinthians 5:17
17 - Therefore, if anyone is in the Messiah, he is a new creation. Old things have disappeared, and—look!—all things have become new!

But this doesn't heal old wounds, its like someone beating another person senseless and then apologizing afterwards, the person that did the beating might regret their actions and learn from it. But that doesn't mean that victim will not still suffer from the beating.

I can't help feeling that you are avoiding the point im trying to make. The victim might not have the chance to repent in a given situation, which makes it impossible for them to ever come to an agreement with the murderer. In which case, the murderer will go to heaven and the victim to hell.

So if we take a simple explanation of what justice means:
Justice is a concept on ethics and law that means that people behave in a way that is fair, equal and balanced for everyone.

Assuming that heaven is good and the place where people want to go, then clearly the victim is not treated with justice, as their chance of getting to heaven were taken from them. In fact one could argue that they were punished for not repenting faster, despite them not having done anything wrong. Their repentance might have occurred later in life had they been given the chance. Yet the murderer is given every possibility to repent, even though they clearly did something wrong.

So the issue I think you are dodging is whether or not that is considered justice or even good?

then it's different, I think.

Just to clarify, im not necessarily talking about a 3-4 year old kid here. It could be a 27 year old person, they are still someones child. So there would need to be some sort of invisible age barrier for when there is a difference or not?

It's the other way around, it seems. It's like in the passage of Matthew 5:24 that I quoted. The one who committed the murder needs to come to an agreement with the former victim.

But doesn't that conflict with idea of God being the final judge, because let's say, that we have a murderer, and their victim is in hell, because they didn't repent fast enough. Now the next of kin have to make a deal with the murderer, so they demand that the murderer switch place with the victim in hell, now that makes them the judge, which is clearly not what the bible say, there is no one except God that can decide the fate of anyone else in heaven, at least nothing is mentioned in the bible, that this should be the case.

Furthermore, what if we are talking about a mass murderer and the next of kin to the victims doesn't agree on how to solve it?

And still how do you get around that there is not suppose to be any suffering in heaven? Because clearly the next of kin, must be suffering knowing that their child is suffering in hell or at least have been robbed from the chance of heaven.

 

[PearlSeeker]

I am going to lay my cards right on the table. I am really angry at God because He created humans and animals with mortal bodies such that they will die. Why did God have to create humans and animals this way? If I think about it for very long I hate God for what He did, but what other choices did He have? I don’t know because I am not God, but is God is All-Knowing and All-Powerful so I tend to think it did not have to be this way. The more I type the angrier I become.

Obviously, God created it this way for a reason, so according to believers I am just supposed to accept that there was a reason and not complain, but I am going to complain because death has caused undue suffering for so many people, because there is nothing worse than losing a loved one, nothing.

I know that some Christians believe it was not supposed to be this way at least for humans, until Adam and Eve sinned, but I do not believe that bodies ever could have lived forever because they were not created to me immortal, so living forever in a physical body is absurd to me. But what is the other option? Death.

Now, let’s try to pretend that people are not afraid of dying.

If that is true, why all the fear of Covid-19, why the masks and social distancing, closing schools and businesses and basically shutting down economies all over the world? Let’s get real folks; people are terrified of death, even though most people believe in an afterlife. Most people enjoy life and they do not want to die, no matter how great heaven might be.

When Covid-19 first hit, I was not afraid at all, and I wondered why people were so fearful. I was never afraid because I am not afraid of my own death, since I have a pretty good idea where I am headed and I know it is not the end of me, but rather just a new beginning in another world, a world that is much better than this hellhole.

I am going to lay some more cards on the table. I have lost all my loved ones to death, first my father, then my sister and then my mother. I think my brother is still alive but I never talk to him anymore. I never had any children so all I have left is my husband, and he is 10 years older than me so he will probably die before I die. But that does not bother me as much as when my cats die because I know where my husband is going and I know I will see him again. I do not know where my cats are going, if anywhere, and I do not know if I will ever see my cats again because that was never revealed in any scriptures. Some people think it is in scriptures that animals have no spirit that lives on so they expire at death but that is just their interpretation.

I have lost so many cats in the last 23 years I have lost track of the number, but it is probably more than 30. If you want to you can blame me for having so many cats, but I already know I risk loss by having so many cats, I am not an idiot. So go ahead and blame me, I cannot feel much worse than I already feel. I know I run the risk of criticism by posting this, but it finally came down to this because I cannot go on like this anymore, feeling completely alone.

My husband is the only one who knows our situation and how I suffer and how it has nearly destroyed me so many times. But he does not really understand how I feel because he is very different when it comes to death and loss. He never even got sad or cried when either of his parents died, it was just like any other day; his only sister died about a week ago and he never got sad or cried. It is the same way when a cat dies. He is like a stone. I finally had to get a counselor again after five years of not having one, because it got so bad last January.

I am not going to go into any details about what happened to the cats or what has happened more recently because it is just too horrible, unimaginable. I will sometimes talk about it in private but only with people who want to know, people I trust. Unfortunately, nice as she is, by new counselor is not much help to me, but it is better than having nobody to talk to, even though I can only talk on the phone now because of Covid-19 restrictions and I cannot get regular appointments.

But where the hell is God when you need Him? Nowhere. The only help I have ever gotten is from kind and compassionate people, some of whom are on this forum. God is nowhere to be found. Sorry, I am not buying off on that God is working through these people because the people deserve the credit, not God. Interestingly, most of these kind and compassionate people have been atheists.

Now is the time for all the believers to blame me for not having God at my side because I am “shutting God out,” as if they could ever know that is what I am doing. Besides, if God is really All-Powerful and All-Loving, God could get in even if I am shutting Him out.

I rest my case.

Dear Trailblazer. Yes, faith in God and the mystery/misery of suffering and death can be so frustrating. It's totally understandable that you are angry and sad. Who would accept that all go to a dark tunnel without knowing what's on the other side (if anything at all)? God doesn't seem to be very informative on that. If there is a God, why is he keeping us ignorant? I can hear some Christian say: Jesus appeared resurrected before his followers. Is this all?

I don't think we lost any earthly immortality because of sin. Death was and is part of life on earth. Maybe if we would be more connected with God the experience wouldn't be so tragical.

I'm not so upset about it but I understand you because I also ask this questions myself. Despite this I still find a lot of beauty and gratitude in life ...

 

[thomas t]

But this doesn't heal old wounds,

Bible confirms this, as far as I know. Here we agree. Isaiah 58:8 (healing wounds).

So there would need to be some sort of invisible age barrier for when there is a difference or not?

the coming of age is 20 years in the Bible as I see it, see Exodus 30:13 ff..
So, my stance is that if you reach the age of twenty and you did not repent until that age... and then suddenly die of an accident or even murder maybe at your twentieth birthday, then it will get difficult for you indeed. But teens sometimes make very godly decisions. They do have plenty of time. Even Bible confirms it, David was chosen as king way before his coming of age.
So I'm not dodging any issue here, in my opinion.

And still how do you get around that there is not suppose to be any suffering in heaven?

I didn't claim so. It's left open in the Bible, as I see it. (please dear Christian fellow poster who might be reading along, don't mix up New Jerusalem and heaven, I used to have discussions about it before)

Furthermore, what if we are talking about a mass murderer and the next of kin to the victims doesn't agree on how to solve it?

(since the murderer who repented is a new creature so let's talk about a guy who committed murder, but is now made new...)
then the former mass murderer has a problem.
But look, Jesus also sees the hearts of the ones who he takes. If it's dire hatred, Jesus would have sorted that out before the victim (or any kin) reaches heaven. Right here on earth.
I suppose that noone reaches heaven with blind anger dwelling in their hearts. But this is just my speculation. It might be different.

Actually, judgement is up to Jesus. Speculating about it is messing with Jesus's affairs, I won't do that too much here.

 

[Nimos]

Bible confirms this, as far as I know. Here we agree. Isaiah 58:8 (healing wounds).

I always found Isaiah a rough one to read.... and therefore im not really convinced that it is talking about healing wounds in the sense that im talking about it, but will get into it further down..

the coming of age is 20 years in the Bible as I see it, see Exodus 30:13 ff..
So, my stance is that if you reach the age of twenty and you did not repent until that age... and then suddenly die of an accident or even murder maybe at your twentieth birthday, then it will get difficult for you indeed. But teens sometimes make very godly decisions. They do have plenty of time. Even Bible confirms it, David was chosen as king way before his coming of age.
So I'm not dodging any issue here, in my opinion.

I think you are dodging it abit in regards to whether you find it to be a good example of justice and good? Do you consider this way of doing it as a morally righteous way?

I didn't claim so. It's left open in the Bible, as I see it. (please dear Christian fellow poster who might be reading along, don't mix up New Jerusalem and heaven, I used to have discussions about it before)

Revelation 21:2-8
2 - I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared like a bride adorned for her husband.
3 - I heard a loud voice from the throne say, "See, the tent of God is among humans! He will make his home with them, and they will be his people. God himself will be with them, and he will be their God.
4 - He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There won't be death anymore. There won't be any grief, crying, or pain, because the first things have disappeared."
5 - The one sitting on the throne said, "See, I am making all things new!" He said, "Write this: 'These words are trustworthy and true.'"
6 - Then he told me, "It has happened! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will freely give a drink from the spring of the water of life to the one who is thirsty.
7 - The person who conquers will inherit these things. I will be his God, and he will be my son.
8 - But people who are cowardly, unfaithful, detestable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars will find themselves in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death."

If we are to believe that (4) is true, then suffering can't really exists as most of the things mentioned here is or can be closely related to that of suffering. Which is why I asked how to solve the issue of suffering in heaven, and whether people would simply forget. Because if parents or loved ones to a victim, no longer feel pain, crying, grief, they have either become emotionally dead or they have had their brain cleared, so they can't remember anything and therefore either don't care about their child in hell or they don't know about it.... which is why I said in the former post, that if that is the case, then the current life people are living is completely pointless, because they won't remember anything from it anyway.

Which could be an explanation of how the removing of any wounds would occur.... obviously it's an awful, horrific and cowardly way of dealing with it by God, if that is how he plan to solve it.

 

[thomas t]

Revelation 21 is about the holy Jerusalem. Being saved doesn't necessarily mean that you end up in the New Jerusalem.
What happens if you end up in heaven but not your child, you're asking?
If you are a Christian, you know beforehand that this can happen. You can't force anyone into believing. Every Christian is asked to let go and surrender everything into God's hands. Even own children. Parents can't guarantee that their children become Christians. But they know before getting any.

I think you are dodging it abit in regards to whether you find it to be a good example of justice and good? Do you consider this way of doing it as a morally righteous way?

The victim wasn't only victim. Every human on earth committed something wrong. Even the victim you're talking of. It's because of ther wrongdoing that they can't enter heaven without Jesus's blood that would have been the atoning sacrifice for the wrongdoing.
If the murderer later converts to Christianity, then things get complicated, I guess. I don't have the answer.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't think we lost any earthly immortality because of sin. Death was and is part of life on earth. Maybe if we would be more connected with God the experience wouldn't be so tragical.

I am glad to hear you realize that humans were created mortal and were always intended to be mortal, so we did not lose that because Adam and Eve sinned. The belief that we were intended to live in a physical body forever on earth is an untenable belief to me. The reason there is a heaven is so we will have a "better place" to go after we die. Heaven is also a recompense for the suffering we had to endure in this world.

Yes, you are right. Death would lose its sting if I was closer to God, and that is why getting angry at God only makes matters worse, but I do not stay angry; that would be much worse of I did

 

[Nimos]

Parents can't guarantee that their children become Christians. But they know before getting any.

So there are people both living now and in the past that have never heard of Jesus, do they get saved as well or where do they end up do you think?

The victim wasn't only victim. Every human on earth committed something wrong. Even the victim you're talking of. It's because of ther wrongdoing that they can't enter heaven without Jesus's blood that would have been the atoning sacrifice for the wrongdoing.

But the assumption that all people have committed sins of such magnitude, that the punishment is justified by them suffering for eternity in hell, seems to be a little bit reckless to me. I mean, ill give you that everyone in their life at some point have probably lied, might have stolen something etc. But to automatically assume that the sins people have done are so severe that it equals that of murdering someone seems wrong to me.

Ill admit that i have both lied and stolen stuff in my life, like a candybar or a pencil from a workplace etc. Nothing that I consider should be punish with eternal suffering. So my real crime as I see it, is that im an atheist and me feeling that the evidence that Christians or Jesus/God want me to believe in are not good enough for me to buy into.... and for that reason it becomes reasonable that I should burn in hell for that.

Now given the fact that not even Christians can agree on what God really means or how to really understand the bible, mixed with a majority of people on Earth not being Christians either, but that of other faith or none... you don't think that God/Jesus did anything wrong, when they so eagerly chooses to throw people in hell, when the majority of people basically have no clue or are not convinced by what they are being told? Just for a moment, do you think that God/Jesus, should maybe consider spreading the word more clearly and ease up on the furnaces in hell, at least just to give the impression or illusion that they are actually good?

 

[thomas t]

So there are people both living now and in the past that have never heard of Jesus, do they get saved as well or where do they end up do you think?

they saw creation and could infrer that there is a loving God, in my opinion. They won't enter heaven, since they could have prayed to that creator, I assume.

But the assumption that all people have committed sins of such magnitude, that the punishment is justified by them suffering for eternity in hell, seems to be a little bit reckless to me.

no, it's not reckless, I think. It's about protection, as I interpret it. Who says that they will suddenly stop sinning when they enter heaven? If stealing was their sin on earth: why should they stop stealing in an afterlife?
So they just stay where they are and can't endanger anyone in heaven. This is what I suppose at least.

Ill admit that i have both lied and stolen stuff in my life

congrats. Many people can't do that...
By the way, it's not only candybars that get stolen here on earth.

 

[Nimos]

they saw creation and could infrer that there is a loving God, in my opinion. They won't enter heaven, since they could have prayed to that creator, I assume.

But in most cases they did pray to a creator or creators, they just chose the ones they saw as the most likely ones to be true. And them not having been informed and in some cases not even living in a time where it was possible in the first place, as Jesus didn't exists at the time or God didn't care about them.

So God is punishing them for not having revealed to them which God is the right one. How is that an attribute of a loving God?

no, it's not reckless, I think. It's about protection, as I interpret it. Who says that they will suddenly stop sinning when they enter heaven? If stealing was their sin on earth: why should they stop stealing in an afterlife?
So they just stay where they are and can't endanger anyone in heaven. This is what I suppose at least.

Then we are back to the initial problem, that justice and good in the eyes of Jesus/God does not exist in regards to this life here on Earth, they don't care at all what people do here. Which means that there is no reason for people to show any form of care or love towards other people, rather you are much better of, being as selfish as humanly possible, because it won't matter that you do good anyway, don't have children as they are nothing but a chain around your legs in this setup.

For people that believe in praying, it would be a complete waste of time as its almost impossible to assume, that a God that doesn't care about humans, would care to listen to them either, and besides that it doesn't matter anyway.

Which in the end would make most of the bible a huge lie. Because the only thing that matters, is getting your timing for the repent and accepting of Jesus right, because that is what they care about, if we follow your logic.
Which means that all the commandments, laws and teachings that Jesus tells people, doesn't mean anything at all!!.
There is no reason to follow them as a Christian, because whether you have done so or not throughout your whole life, makes absolutely no difference. If you don't manage to repent your sins and accept Jesus as your saviour before you die, then you are done for. So whether you are pure evil or pure good, gives you almost equal chance of getting into heaven. Your chances are slightly higher, if you are evil and willing to shoot first, than if you follow the word of God, that you shall not kill.

I might not be a Christian and have no issues saying that God of the bible, is a horrible being. But this view of Christianity that you have, takes it to whole new level in my opinion. God/Jesus is just not horrible beings, they are worse than Satan is in this setup, which doesn't really seem to be what the bible tells us, which is amazing!!

Not meant in an offensive way, but are you truly a Christian or are you just trolling them?

congrats. Many people can't do that...
By the way, it's not only candybars that get stolen here on earth.

No, but for the most part, the stuff that gets stolen are none important things, in fact most biblical "sins" done on Earth are harmless. Even if you pick up trash from the street you might actually commit a sin, as you might perceive it as trash, but that doesn't mean that it is still not owned by someone else. You have no clue, if that person threw it on the street on purpose or whether they dropped it by accident, or simply thought that it was a good place to store it. Which means that no one have the "holy" right, if they want to not sin, to pick up anything we normally consider trash.

Is the divine rule, that if you throw something out, or put something somewhere where it seems "unnatural" to be, that you suddenly don't own it anymore?

 

[thomas t]

But in most cases they did pray to a creator or creators, they just chose the ones they saw as the most likely ones to be true. And them not having been informed and in some cases not even living in a time where it was possible in the first place, as Jesus didn't exists at the time or God didn't care about them.

So God is punishing them for not having revealed to them which God is the right one. How is that an attribute of a loving God?

I'm talking of a loving creator God.
If, to your knowledge, there are several who claim to be a loving God, check them all, I recommend.

they don't care at all what people do here. [...]
its almost impossible to assume, that a God that doesn't care about humans, [...]
I might not be a Christian and have no issues saying that God of the bible, is a horrible being. [...]
they are worse than Satan is in this setup,

I don't think so. I see God as a loving God!

There is no reason to follow them as a Christian, because whether you have done so or not throughout your whole life, makes absolutely no difference.

if you harm someone, it's still wrong.

Your chances are slightly higher, if you are evil and willing to shoot first, than if you follow the word of God, that you shall not kill.

no, you can't back that up by anything.

No, but for the most part, the stuff that gets stolen are none important things,

the important thing is the attitude, as I see it. Stealing means: "it all belongs to me", as I understand it. Tell me if I'm wrong.

 

[Nimos]

I'm talking of a loving creator God.
If, to your knowledge, there are several who claim to be a loving God, check them all, I recommend.

Im not sure why it is relevant whether or not the God is loving or not? That is not a condition in regards to whether a God is true or false. My point is that those before the biblical God, did indeed believe in gods, in fact many gods. Yet none of them came to the conclusion that the creator was that of the biblical one.

The Norse clearly didn't, The Mayans didn't either and the list go on.

So assuming that the biblical God is the real deal, he apparently, despite his first commandment didn't seem to care a whole lot about these people and maybe inform them that he were the true God, instead he must have chosen to punish them for not making the right guess. To me that is not an attribute I would assign to something that is said to be all loving.

Do you believe that God knows the difference between right and wrong, good and evil?

And to give you an example and to let you be the judge:

I don't know you as a person, so my assumption is that you are a good and decent person.

Let's say I have some vital information and I have two options. I can either share them with you, which would save your life or I could not share them which you, which would kill you.
Do you consider me choosing not to tell you these information, an act of good or an act of evil?

I don't think so. I see God as a loving God!

But would you agree, that given what you have said, there is basically no difference in the eyes of God, between a person following the rules of the bible and one just going all out nuts and killing, raping, cursing God and whatever they might do?

Because in the end, either of them can repent and accept Jesus as their savior and get rid of all their sins, would you agree that it is what you have been arguing for?

if you harm someone, it's still wrong.

Yes in your opinion, but in the eyes of God it doesn't matters at all, because given what you are saying, it doesn't lower your chances of being saved anyway. So harming anyone isn't really wrong in this setup, because the final judge, God, which opinion is the only one that matters, doesn't give a flying turd anyway.

no, you can't back that up by anything.

Sure you can, Let's assume that, the only thing that matters is to get saved. So no police or security of any form. A person could go and kill you, if they didn't like you or just wanted what you owned, that would give them ressources, especially if they kill a lot of people and steal their stuff, as they could then hire others to protect them. Knowing that you might have chosen to follow the bible, that you shall not kill, makes you an easy target. Which give the person that chooses to shoot first and repent later an edge, since you might not have had time to repent. And given how easy it is to sin according to Jesus, your chances are lower than that of your killer.

the important thing is the attitude, as I see it. Stealing means: "it all belongs to me", as I understand it. Tell me if I'm wrong.

Stealing simply means that you take something that doesn't legally belongs to you. It have nothing especially to do with attitude. A person that is about to starve to death, might do it because there is no other option. You might accidentally steal something, because you thought it was yours. And obvious some might steal, because they simply want something. Again, this whole idea you seem to follow, doesn't seem very solid to be honest, in regards to good, evil, right and wrong. You seem to cherry pick one example that support your idea and then run with it and apply it to all situations. But that is not how things work.

Would you honestly consider a starving child or anyone for that matter that steals food, a criminal? Or doesn't the rules apply in these case either?

Im sorry, but it's the most narrowed view of right and wrong, I have ever seen. Its like black and white, no other options at all!!

And im sorry, if I sound a bit annoyed or aggressive, it's not my intention. If these are your views, that is fair obviously. But it just doesn't seem like you have really spend a lot of time thinking about it, on a personal level, compared to just jumping straight into the bible and try to find verses to tell you what to believe. Am I way off in that assumption? And if I am, then I apologize.

It just reminds me so much of discussions, I have had with some people from JWs, not all of them... but they jump straight to the bible, trying to find verses, the moment they are in a moral dilemma, rather than spending 10 minutes trying to argue against their own position, based on logic and reasoning, to see if it make sense.

 

[thomas t]

Nature points to a loving God, as I see it.

Let's say I have some vital information and I have two options. I can either share them with you, which would save your life or I could not share them which you, which would kill you.
Do you consider me choosing not to tell you these information, an act of good or an act of evil?

I'm not the judge, God is. God shared anything in nature, I think. The information is there. The Norse might have believed in different gods, too. But God looks into their hearts, lets see how he judges them (that's when Jesus returns, as I see it).

Because in the end, either of them can repent and accept Jesus as their savior and get rid of all their sins, would you agree that it is what you have been arguing for?

no, if you repent ...your sins against God are forgiven. But that does not necessarily mean that all your victims forgive you, too. This is how I see it.

God, which opinion is the only one that matters, doesn't give a flying turd anyway.

no that's not true. He does not want that the humans he created resort to murder. It's his creation. He's the owner.

that would give them ressources

...that don't count for salvation....

s they could then hire others to protect them.

why not convert on the spot instead. If his faith is strong enough to hire personnal to protect him just for the sake of having more time to convert... why not convert right where is at that very point of time? It's three minutes. All else is practicing how to procrastinate the decision. Which is not wise.

You seem to cherry pick one example [...].Would you honestly consider a starving child or anyone for that matter that steals food, a criminal? Or doesn't the rules apply in these case either?

no. I say if you steal and don't return as you can, you have the wrong attitude, I think. No cherry picking here.

Am I way off in that assumption?

I'm not sure.

 

[Trailblazer]

Nature points to a loving God, as I see it.

I do not know the context of this conversation, but why do you think that nature points to a loving God?
The way I see it, nature points to a God that doesn't give a twit about animals.....

Not a sparrow falls, give me a break...
But that sparrow still falls, doesn't it?