Why Christians lie

[no-body]

If that's the case, there's no need to lie.

It's like having a pair of blinders on and telling yourself everyone should be seeing the same thing. I don't think they mean to lie, at least not consciously.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

My problem is that you are saying faith can not be used as honesty only intellect.

Because of your intellect you are telling the truth today and a man of faith is dishonest. Tomorrow however that man of faith will still be telling the same thing and because of intellect your truth can change. Who is being honest?

I never said that.

On another thread:

When I first started in my Ph.D. program at a liberal ecumenical seminary, one of the first things I did was to ask all of my fellows if they believed in the literal resurrection of Christ. I was surprised to hear that despite our many different backgrounds and methodologies, every New Testament scholar believed in the resurrection of Christ. Now we may all disagree on the nature of the theology of the resurrection, but agree something happened.

The thing is, faith is focused on the character of God. Biblical studies on the scholarly level is a matter of interpreting and understanding texts and other tangible evidence. The two mix when scholars write for churches or do theology.

 

[bobhikes]

I never said that.

On another thread:

I don't see faith as only belief in god but belief without "so called" supporting logic.

All your intellect is based on your faith in others intellect. You did not preform the tests or collect the data. You have decide with faith that your intellect is correct because the majority of the intellect today says it is. The intellect of the masses has been proven wrong over and over again throughout history and will continue to be done so.

If a man wished to stand on faith as he doesn't have time or the proper training to test the results you claim are true then he is not lying. Just because you can read 5 books that make the claim you are correct. There are many trained people and other books that disagree. They would not be considered main line scientists because they refuse to agree with the masses. They are not liars.

You agree with the masses so this means you are truth teller and those that don't agree with the masses are liars.

 

[Looncall]

My problem is that you are saying faith can not be used as honesty only intellect.

Because of your intellect you are telling the truth today and a man of faith is dishonest. Tomorrow however that man of faith will still be telling the same thing and because of intellect your truth can change. Who is being honest?

The man of faith may still be telling the same lies, while the man of intellect may have discovered something new. Faith is intrinsically dishonest because it is not founded in evidence.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I don't see faith as only belief in god but belief without "so called" supporting logic.

All your intellect is based on your faith in others intellect. You did not preform the tests or collect the data. You have decide with faith that your intellect is correct because the majority of the intellect today says it is. The intellect of the masses has been proven wrong over and over again throughout history and will continue to be done so.

If a man wished to stand on faith as he doesn't have time or the proper training to test the results you claim are true then he is not lying. Just because you can read 5 books that make the claim you are correct. There are many trained people and other books that disagree. They would not be considered main line scientists because they refuse to agree with the masses. They are not liars.

You agree with the masses so this means you are truth teller and those that don't agree with the masses are liars.

What does this have to do with what I have said?

 

[McBell]

What does this have to do with what I have said?

Good question.

 

[Thesavorofpan]

I think Christians lie because they are taught to do so by their pastors and religious leaders. The only thing that matters, it seems, are the beliefs held by a particular tradition.

These beliefs are engrained in the Christian, made infalliable by circular reasoning, and then solidified by the warning from the pastor that one's faith absolutely depends on the veracity of these claims.

Unfortunately for the dishonest Chrisitan, nothing is infalliable, and in fact honest reasoning requires the subject to be falliable so one can change one's mind if one is wrong. So, to defend these precious doctrines to oneself and others, the Christian must lie. And we see Christians lie about Greek and Hebrew to support various doctrines; lie about science to support creationism; lie about the faith of others fir simple disagreement; lie about the nature of other religions --- it is truly limitless.

When did it become OK for Christians to practice such open hatred for the truth, and hypocritically claim to be the bearers of it?

It is abundantly obvious that it doesn't have to be this way. Honesty will strengthen faith. If one's only desire is for the truth of the matter, especially if it challenges one's faith, so much the better for intellect and faith.

I always thought christians lie because it's easier then telling the truth?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I always thought christians lie because it's easier then telling the truth?

I definately agree that laziness is part of it.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Good question.

It's an excellent question!

 

[bobhikes]

What does this have to do with what I have said?

The thread is that christians lie. I am saying they are using faith not lying and that faith is valid.

Case in point. I believe in evolution but see that it has flaw's. These flaws give credence to creationism. A scientist or priest that quotes creationism is not a liar.

 

[ellenjanuary]

Back up, I got this...

　
And yes, an intellectually honest challenge to one's faith should be welcomed as blows from a friend.

See that guy just sign his obituary?

In the real world, my faith begins like, "I believe in Gwyneth..." And something ends.

But here in virtuality, it is safe to debate. Faith does not equal Religion. Faith is a wordless summation of all that has come before, it is not something that can be practiced nor preached. Notice how above I express four words... and that is already too many words.

 

[McBell]

A scientist or priest that quotes creationism is not a liar.

Unless it is a creationist lie.
Which most of it is.

But then some would argue that it is not the quoter who is lieing because they are ignorant of the lie.
I can agree with that until it is pointed out to the quoter that it is a lie.
Then if said quoter keeps quoting it, the quoter is lieing.

I can give you a list of liars right here on RF.

 

[bobhikes]

Unless it is a creationist lie.
Which most of it is.

But then some would argue that it is not the quoter who is lieing because they are ignorant of the lie.
I can agree with that until it is pointed out to the quoter that it is a lie.
Then if said quoter keeps quoting it, the quoter is lieing.

I can give you a list of liars right here on RF.

It must be proven to be a lie. As I have said before this is the problem you can't prove it is a lie to the person as he will believe you are lying.

You agree with the masses and he agrees with a smaller group. You have your proofs and they have theirs. They are not liars.

The issue I have with the whole thread is calling someone a liar because they don't believe what is thought to be common knowledge.

The person could believe that they have talked personally to god. Just because everybody else says it is not true they are not lying.

I have a lot of christian friends that believe weird things and will tell you red faced that you are an idoit for not seeing it. They are not liars they rely on faith far more than reason and this is not a problem.

 

[McBell]

It must be proven to be a lie. As I have said before this is the problem you can't prove it is a lie to the person as he will believe you are lying.

If you would be so kind as to check out any creation vs evolution thread you will see lie after lie after lie pointed out to creationists post after post.

You agree with the masses and he agrees with a smaller group. You have your proofs and they have theirs. They are not liars.

Their beliefs are not what makes them liars.
Their lies make them liars.

The issue I have with the whole thread is calling someone a liar because they don't believe what is thought to be common knowledge.

Then you are not paying attention to the posts in this thread.
Or perhaps you are merely taking them out of context?

The person could believe that they have talked personally to god. Just because everybody else says it is not true they are not lying.

Strawman

I have a lot of christian friends that believe weird things and will tell you red faced that you are an idoit for not seeing it. They are not liars they rely on faith far more than reason and this is not a problem.

Faith is just fine until they start telling falsehoods in order to justify said faith.
As soon as they start lieing, they are liars.

 

[bobhikes]

Liar a person who states a falsehood they know is false.

If we are talking about this kind of liar then they exist in everygroup that is out there. There are scientific liars, evolutionist liars everyman liars and RF liars.


Are we then saying that christians have more of these liars than anybody else? The thread certainly implies this and from reading these reply's certain people seem to agree.

 

[ellenjanuary]

Liar a person who states a falsehood they know is false.

If we are talking about this kind of liar then they exist in everygroup that is out there. There are scientific liars, evolutionist liars everyman liars and RF liars.


Are we then saying that christians have more of these liars than anybody else? The thread certainly implies this and from reading these reply's certain people seem to agree.

To be human is to lie. That ain't the point. The point is core philosophy. What is your core philosophy? I say things like, "I'm a mathematician, I'm a witch, artist, fool..."

To be Christian ideally is to accept Christianity at one's core; but somewhere along the line, "spread the gospel" became "bear false witness."

 

[bobhikes]

To be human is to lie. That ain't the point. The point is core philosophy. What is your core philosophy? I say things like, "I'm a mathematician, I'm a witch, artist, fool..."

To be Christian ideally is to accept Christianity at one's core; but somewhere along the line, "spread the gospel" became "bear false witness."

As I said, I see this thread as an act against christianity and Liar is the specific attack we are using today.


Where's the intellect in this?

 

[ellenjanuary]

As I said, I see this thread as an act against christianity and Liar is the specific attack we are using today.


Where's the intellect in this?

Intellect has left the building.

As this thread was started by angellous, this ain't your average bear, boo-boo. This is more like a call to fellowship for shared understanding. I'm not Christian, so... I'm gone.

 

[McBell]

Liar a person who states a falsehood they know is false.

Liar is someone who says something with the intent to deceive.
Most commonly what is said is a falsehood, but it is not limited to false statements.

If we are talking about this kind of liar then they exist in everygroup that is out there. There are scientific liars, evolutionist liars everyman liars and RF liars.

I agree.
But for whatever reason, the TS has wanted to limit such a broad topic to Christian liars.
Thus your statement here is off topic.

Are we then saying that christians have more of these liars than anybody else?

Strawman

The thread certainly implies this and from reading these reply's certain people seem to agree.

The thread is about Christian liars.
It in no way even implies that only Christians lie or that Christians lie more than others or that all Christians lie.
These are nothing more than your strawmen.

 

[McBell]

As I said, I see this thread as an act against christianity and Liar is the specific attack we are using today.

If you are that eager to be insulted, perhaps this thread is not for you.
It isn't like you have been on topic much.

Where's the intellect in this?

Got me.
Where is the intellect in presenting strawman after strawman?