Why can't Lucifer ever be redeemed?

[Thief]

Because that would mess up the narrative.

and the peace of heaven

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I don't really care whether Mestemia worships Lucifer or Satan or whatever name they give their god.

Wow you are just not getting it. Well, best case then, I guess, you just keep on making grossly incorrect assumptions and going off on tangents about them. It's actually kind of amusing.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Why can't all spirits eventually be redeemed?

Because, because ... LOOK -- SQUIRREL!

God's children ascend, during they're ascension process they are purified of primitive anger instincts and the propensity for violence, so, they are fixed to a degree but certainly not made perfect.

But if the purification ritual is there, why not use it? Saying evil people won't repent and thus can't get redemption is a bit like saying the polar bear refuses to go to the Sahara Desert. Of COURSE, they won't repent ... not until there's a purification ritual to wash the spiritual grime off of them ...

Lucifer wants to be in charge of this universe or have nothing at all.

Why? Extra Credit Question: Is any of this silliness actually in the bible?

God doesn't change His mind.

God's maybe not as bad as a politician, but He flip flops quite often. The themes of the OT and NT are such:

OT: God says don't you even TRY to be like Him or you'll be sorry.
NT: Jesus specifically tells us to be like God.

Which is it?

God doesn't change His mind. Over time ignorant humans learn that what they thought was true, was not true, for instance an "eye for an eye" seemed to change to "forgiveness". The truth is that an "eye for an eye" never was God's law. It was an idea that the Jew's adopted from their time spent in captivity in Babylon. You might look up Hammurabi's laws online and you will see that it sounds a whole lot like the Old Testament rules.

Something like Buddhism might require mercy and not punishment as well, and it predates the NT to boot.

What is the point of Jesus dying for our sins if we have to ask God for forgiveness of our sins and to repent?

Because, because ... LOOK -- SQUIRREL!

Lucifer never wanted more power than God. He saw what God was doing and he disliked it. God is a manipulator. God wants worship, he wants prayer, he wants power, he wants you to ask him for forgiveness when you do something that is praobably normal like sex before marriage, even masturbation.

Yes. In Job, while we're conditioned to think the story is about Job (being the title and all), I feel it's more of a story about Satan tempting God, like some sort of 360 performance evaluation, to see if He will do bad things to people without good reason. God not only does this but says specifically that He knows what He is doing is without good reason.

Others choose to worship the bible, not I.

Ok, but then where are you getting your ideas about who goes and can't go to heaven? I mean, I don't worship the bible either. I believe God has the keys and it's His business what to do with them.

On the other hand, I also see the afterlife as a complete whole, and all the different afterlives we think up are just "skins" to the "afterlife app" we get.

Jesus created Lucifer outside of heaven.

As a baby?

Once Jesus finished His earthly bestowal, Lucifer was bound and jailed and is undergoing trial.

In trials ,you don't always get the death penalty.

Once you violate the law there is a punishment.

We don't even punish half the criminals we actually have.

Who said that personalities are never changed? I did. You don't have to agree.

I don't agree either, what with my medical knowledge knowing that damage to certain parts of the frontal lobes will guaranteed affect personality.

We know the cause of these things now.

You don't know the causes of personality changes.

Heaven is being at peace and having no fear.

There was a war/rebellion in Heaven, so clearly that's not accurate.

Satan never wants to be in Heaven with God again.

But he goes to all the inservices in Job ...

and accept God's free gift of salvation through Jesus Christ who died for you

But I still have to repent, plus Jesus' sacrifice only lasted 3 days and then he canceled the check...

Jesus died on the cross so that for those who truly choose to repent of their sins, God made a way for them to enter heaven when they die.

This wasn't necessary, though. God will always admit whomever He wants..

That is your choice, and God will grant you your choice to spend all of eternity in hell, but why on earth would want that? I'd like to know, because that to me is the stupidest choice a human being could possibly make!

Because you're so stuck on confusing worshipping with butt kissing that you can't hear the criticisms satanists have regarding God's actions? I mean, I don't play for their team, but they make some valid points here and there.

In Isaiah chapter 14 verse 13-14 it says this quoting Satan,

Context is a funny thing, from verse 4 of that chapter:

4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon

Satan isn't on the kings' list of Babylon, IIRC.

Again, tell me why anyone would want to spend an eternal existence in place as horrible as hell?

I've been to hell lots of times. There are horror movies that scare me more. Satan bores me.

He will never return to heaven, even though he continues to try to escape from the universe.

That'll be fun to watch. Wonder if it's like Sun Wukong trying to jump off Buddha's hand.

Yes... Lucifer is derived from the King of Babylon... but the serpent (Satan) became evil and can be seen throughout the Tanakh and the NT Scriptures.

Particularly if you show no real concern for context and just want to, ahem, demonize Satan for the lulz.

His presence in the Garden was not sent by YHVH.

He isn't present there anyway.

YHVH would not call it his JUDGMENT, and Job would not REPENT, - if it was just Satan being evil.

Yahweh specifically tells Satan He is smiting Job for no good reason. It's right there ....

Maybe he's not done yet. What's the rush?

God may have all the time in the universe but we don't.

Evil me: Oh, I'm sorry, patient so and so ... you have to go pee but I'm just not feeling it today. Don't worry. I'm not done yet. What's the rush? Potential kidney failure? Severe skin breakdown and infections? Well, I don't really care about that. I work at my own pace. I can't prioritize patient needs at all.

Will you give me 5/5 on the Press Ganey if I treated you like that?

 

[godnotgod]

i don't think you can be redeemed

you have nothing of definition

Who is it that needs redemption?

Who is it that lives?

Who is it that dies?

'I' is a hallucination; a disease of the mind.

 

[Kemosloby]

Because, because ... LOOK -- SQUIRREL!


But if the purification ritual is there, why not use it? Saying evil people won't repent and thus can't get redemption is a bit like saying the polar bear refuses to go to the Sahara Desert. Of COURSE, they won't repent ... not until there's a purification ritual to wash the spiritual grime off of them ...


Why? Extra Credit Question: Is any of this silliness actually in the bible?


God's maybe not as bad as a politician, but He flip flops quite often. The themes of the OT and NT are such:

OT: God says don't you even TRY to be like Him or you'll be sorry.
NT: Jesus specifically tells us to be like God.

Which is it?


Something like Buddhism might require mercy and not punishment as well, and it predates the NT to boot.


Because, because ... LOOK -- SQUIRREL!


Yes. In Job, while we're conditioned to think the story is about Job (being the title and all), I feel it's more of a story about Satan tempting God, like some sort of 360 performance evaluation, to see if He will do bad things to people without good reason. God not only does this but says specifically that He knows what He is doing is without good reason.


Ok, but then where are you getting your ideas about who goes and can't go to heaven? I mean, I don't worship the bible either. I believe God has the keys and it's His business what to do with them.

On the other hand, I also see the afterlife as a complete whole, and all the different afterlives we think up are just "skins" to the "afterlife app" we get.


As a baby?


In trials ,you don't always get the death penalty.


We don't even punish half the criminals we actually have.


I don't agree either, what with my medical knowledge knowing that damage to certain parts of the frontal lobes will guaranteed affect personality.


You don't know the causes of personality changes.


There was a war/rebellion in Heaven, so clearly that's not accurate.


But he goes to all the inservices in Job ...


But I still have to repent, plus Jesus' sacrifice only lasted 3 days and then he canceled the check...


This wasn't necessary, though. God will always admit whomever He wants..


Because you're so stuck on confusing worshipping with butt kissing that you can't hear the criticisms satanists have regarding God's actions? I mean, I don't play for their team, but they make some valid points here and there.


Context is a funny thing, from verse 4 of that chapter:

4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon

Satan isn't on the kings' list of Babylon, IIRC.


I've been to hell lots of times. There are horror movies that scare me more. Satan bores me.


That'll be fun to watch. Wonder if it's like Sun Wukong trying to jump off Buddha's hand.


Particularly if you show no real concern for context and just want to, ahem, demonize Satan for the lulz.


He isn't present there anyway.


Yahweh specifically tells Satan He is smiting Job for no good reason. It's right there ....


God may have all the time in the universe but we don't.

Evil me: Oh, I'm sorry, patient so and so ... you have to go pee but I'm just not feeling it today. Don't worry. I'm not done yet. What's the rush? Potential kidney failure? Severe skin breakdown and infections? Well, I don't really care about that. I work at my own pace. I can't prioritize patient needs at all.

Will you give me 5/5 on the Press Ganey if I treated you like that?

The patients don't matter because everyone must die anyway.

Because, because ... LOOK -- SQUIRREL!


But if the purification ritual is there, why not use it? Saying evil people won't repent and thus can't get redemption is a bit like saying the polar bear refuses to go to the Sahara Desert. Of COURSE, they won't repent ... not until there's a purification ritual to wash the spiritual grime off of them ...


Why? Extra Credit Question: Is any of this silliness actually in the bible?


God's maybe not as bad as a politician, but He flip flops quite often. The themes of the OT and NT are such:

OT: God says don't you even TRY to be like Him or you'll be sorry.
NT: Jesus specifically tells us to be like God.

Which is it?


Something like Buddhism might require mercy and not punishment as well, and it predates the NT to boot.


Because, because ... LOOK -- SQUIRREL!


Yes. In Job, while we're conditioned to think the story is about Job (being the title and all), I feel it's more of a story about Satan tempting God, like some sort of 360 performance evaluation, to see if He will do bad things to people without good reason. God not only does this but says specifically that He knows what He is doing is without good reason.


Ok, but then where are you getting your ideas about who goes and can't go to heaven? I mean, I don't worship the bible either. I believe God has the keys and it's His business what to do with them.

On the other hand, I also see the afterlife as a complete whole, and all the different afterlives we think up are just "skins" to the "afterlife app" we get.


As a baby?


In trials ,you don't always get the death penalty.


We don't even punish half the criminals we actually have.


I don't agree either, what with my medical knowledge knowing that damage to certain parts of the frontal lobes will guaranteed affect personality.


You don't know the causes of personality changes.


There was a war/rebellion in Heaven, so clearly that's not accurate.


But he goes to all the inservices in Job ...


But I still have to repent, plus Jesus' sacrifice only lasted 3 days and then he canceled the check...


This wasn't necessary, though. God will always admit whomever He wants..


Because you're so stuck on confusing worshipping with butt kissing that you can't hear the criticisms satanists have regarding God's actions? I mean, I don't play for their team, but they make some valid points here and there.


Context is a funny thing, from verse 4 of that chapter:

4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon

Satan isn't on the kings' list of Babylon, IIRC.


I've been to hell lots of times. There are horror movies that scare me more. Satan bores me.


That'll be fun to watch. Wonder if it's like Sun Wukong trying to jump off Buddha's hand.


Particularly if you show no real concern for context and just want to, ahem, demonize Satan for the lulz.


He isn't present there anyway.


Yahweh specifically tells Satan He is smiting Job for no good reason. It's right there ....


God may have all the time in the universe but we don't.

Evil me: Oh, I'm sorry, patient so and so ... you have to go pee but I'm just not feeling it today. Don't worry. I'm not done yet. What's the rush? Potential kidney failure? Severe skin breakdown and infections? Well, I don't really care about that. I work at my own pace. I can't prioritize patient needs at all.

Will you give me 5/5 on the Press Ganey if I treated you like that?

And who's fault is that?

 

[godnotgod]

Because it's all just One Big Act anyhoo.

hoo hoo hoo

 

[Rapture Era]

The name Lucifer is NOT actually found in Tanakh.
Isaiah is talking about a King of Babylon, who climbed to the heights, and fell, not Satan.
In Tanakh, Satan has access to the Throne of YHVH, because he is a servant of YHVH doing his job. His job is to test people, put stumbling blocks before them, to see what they do. If found wanting, - he accuses them before God. His first appearance in the NT is to TEST Jesus - to see if he is ready.
The evil autonomous Satan idea was thought up later.*

It may not be. In the Bible however he is known as Lucifer and when cast down to earth his name changed to Satan meaning accuser or slanderer which he is, go figure right?. In Ezekiel 24:13-15 God describes Lucifer in this way; 13"You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared. 14"You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire. 15"You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you.… This is when Lucifer became proud of his power and beauty and wanted to exalt himself above God. When he sinned in his pride, that caused him to fall from grace. Because of his hate for God at this point, he wanted to ruin Gods perfect creation by deceiving Eve, then Adam and we know Satans history from there as a roaring lion seeking someone to devour. In the NT, Satan wasnt testing Jesus to see if He was ready, he was testing Him to try to get Him to sin and thereby destroying the ability for anyone to spend all of eternity in heaven. Satan's attitude is, If I cant be in heaven, neither can you! He has tried many times throughout history to kill the lineage of Jesus to keep Him from coming on the scene in the first place because he knew that if Jesus were to show up, that would mean hope for anyone who chooses, will be able to have an eternity in heaven. The Jews missed his first coming, but they wont miss his second coming for sure! They will realize when God opens their eyes that they have been duped by Satan in the Antichrist.

 

[Rapture Era]

But I still have to repent, plus Jesus' sacrifice only lasted 3 days and then he canceled the check...

Where do you get this from? What is the authority by which you make this statement as though it were true?

 

[Rapture Era]

Great statement. I have always wondered, after Jesus sanctified the Holy of Holies by presenting his blood, if Satan no longer has access to the Throne. Scripture doesn't say but it is never recorded after the resurrection that he continued to have access.
Just thinking.

Yeah I see what you are saying, but its important to see that Satan doesnt have access to the throneroom of God but he does have access to God because he is accusing us day and night. For those of us who have accepted Jesus as our personal savior, God looks at us through the lenses of Jesus so to speak and tells Satan to get lost. But this doesnt stop Satan from doing it constantly day and night as is described in scripture. I think its a standing order for Satan to have access to God until God destroys him at the end of the millennium.

 

[Rapture Era]

God's maybe not as bad as a politician, but He flip flops quite often. The themes of the OT and NT are such:
OT: God says don't you even TRY to be like Him or you'll be sorry.
NT: Jesus specifically tells us to be like God.
Which is it?

This is great. I'll give your OT analogy to another analogy because it fits your context. You are a business owner. You are doing well. You hire an employee thats says to you, I dont like the way you run your business, I can do better, therefore, I'm going to take over your business and run it the way I see fit. You as the owner says, no, this is my business that I created, you're fired! Get it?
With reference to your "NT: Jesus specifically tells us to be like God." Where do you get that from and in what context are you quoting?

 

[Thief]

Who is it that needs redemption?

Who is it that lives?

Who is it that dies?

'I' is a hallucination; a disease of the mind.

no redemption for you

 

[Rapture Era]

I've been to hell lots of times. There are horror movies that scare me more. Satan bores me.

You have no clue what hell is going to be like, keep going in the same direction you are and you will find out when you die that your words here are absolutely ludicrous! Problem at that point will be, NO TAKE BACKS!

 

[McBell]

You have no clue what hell is going to be like, keep going in the same direction you are and you will find out when you die that your words here are absolutely ludicrous! Problem at that point will be, NO TAKE BACKS!

bold empty threats, though quite comical, do not help your argument.

 

[Rapture Era]

Yes. In Job, while we're conditioned to think the story is about Job (being the title and all), I feel it's more of a story about Satan tempting God, like some sort of 360 performance evaluation, to see if He will do bad things to people without good reason. God not only does this but says specifically that He knows what He is doing is without good reason.

God first brings up Job as a righteous man to Satan. Satan does to Job the same thing he does to everyone especially those who put their trust in Jesus and that is this: Satan is saying to God over and over, if you take away everything that Job has, his wealth, kill his family and strike him with cancer or whatever Satan was allowed to do to Job, his health, he will curse you to your face! We have the privilege of seeing what goes on behind the scenes like in a movie the conversation between God and Satan. God said you can do what you want to Job but you cannot kill him. Satan unleashed a barrage of horrible things against Job. Job did nothing to deserve what came against him and that is what God is saying. But this is a perfect picture that Satan cannot do anything without Gods permission. People are quick to blame God for the things that come against them but it is Satan doing what he has always done, to attack people and get their focus on God as the bad guy. To put doubt in peoples minds, "Did God really say this?" just like he did with Eve! Lets put the blame where it belongs, on Satan not God!

 

[Rapture Era]

bold empty threats, though quite comical, do not help your argument.

Not making threats, just facts according to the scriptures. I'm not trying to make an argument, but the reality of truth according to the scriptures stands on its own. You can reject and make fun of it all you want. The moment you die, you will find out whether this is true or false, but by that time it will be too late if you are wrong. Just sayin. Eternity is a long time!

 

[ErikErik]

Why can't satan be redeemed? Do you want him to be?

 

[Super Universe]

Because, because ... LOOK -- SQUIRREL!


But if the purification ritual is there, why not use it? Saying evil people won't repent and thus can't get redemption is a bit like saying the polar bear refuses to go to the Sahara Desert. Of COURSE, they won't repent ... not until there's a purification ritual to wash the spiritual grime off of them ...


Why? Extra Credit Question: Is any of this silliness actually in the bible?


God's maybe not as bad as a politician, but He flip flops quite often. The themes of the OT and NT are such:

OT: God says don't you even TRY to be like Him or you'll be sorry.
NT: Jesus specifically tells us to be like God.

Which is it?


Something like Buddhism might require mercy and not punishment as well, and it predates the NT to boot.


Because, because ... LOOK -- SQUIRREL!


Yes. In Job, while we're conditioned to think the story is about Job (being the title and all), I feel it's more of a story about Satan tempting God, like some sort of 360 performance evaluation, to see if He will do bad things to people without good reason. God not only does this but says specifically that He knows what He is doing is without good reason.


Ok, but then where are you getting your ideas about who goes and can't go to heaven? I mean, I don't worship the bible either. I believe God has the keys and it's His business what to do with them.

On the other hand, I also see the afterlife as a complete whole, and all the different afterlives we think up are just "skins" to the "afterlife app" we get.


As a baby?


In trials ,you don't always get the death penalty.


We don't even punish half the criminals we actually have.


I don't agree either, what with my medical knowledge knowing that damage to certain parts of the frontal lobes will guaranteed affect personality.


You don't know the causes of personality changes.


There was a war/rebellion in Heaven, so clearly that's not accurate.


But he goes to all the inservices in Job ...


But I still have to repent, plus Jesus' sacrifice only lasted 3 days and then he canceled the check...


This wasn't necessary, though. God will always admit whomever He wants..


Because you're so stuck on confusing worshipping with butt kissing that you can't hear the criticisms satanists have regarding God's actions? I mean, I don't play for their team, but they make some valid points here and there.


Context is a funny thing, from verse 4 of that chapter:

4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon

Satan isn't on the kings' list of Babylon, IIRC.


I've been to hell lots of times. There are horror movies that scare me more. Satan bores me.


That'll be fun to watch. Wonder if it's like Sun Wukong trying to jump off Buddha's hand.


Particularly if you show no real concern for context and just want to, ahem, demonize Satan for the lulz.


He isn't present there anyway.


Yahweh specifically tells Satan He is smiting Job for no good reason. It's right there ....


God may have all the time in the universe but we don't.

Evil me: Oh, I'm sorry, patient so and so ... you have to go pee but I'm just not feeling it today. Don't worry. I'm not done yet. What's the rush? Potential kidney failure? Severe skin breakdown and infections? Well, I don't really care about that. I work at my own pace. I can't prioritize patient needs at all.

Will you give me 5/5 on the Press Ganey if I treated you like that?

What purification ritual?

The human definition of evil is not the same as the angelic definition. To the angels, evil is knowing the divine plan and purposely going against it. In the angelic definition, humans can't be evil until they've ascended enough to know the truth. And, all the angels who joined the rebellion chose mercy except one.

Is anything I said actually in the bible? You think the bible is in charge? You think the bible is our only source of information on God and the universe?

God flip flops? No, He doesn't. Humans flip flop. The theme of the Old Testament is "an eye for an eye". The theme for the New Testament is "forgiveness". God never changed His mind about anything, ignorant humans were taught an advanced concept and finally began to accept the truth. The bible is not God's truth, it's ignorant and primitive men trying to explain something that was way beyond their ability to comprehend.

The OT or the NT, which is it? It's neither. New information about God and the universe is always incoming. We won't have an accurate idea of God for another thousand years.

Where am I getting my ideas about who goes to heaven and who doesn't? Look up in the right corner of my posts, it says my religion. Also, as far as who really gets to go to heaven and who really doesn't, the only thing you have to do is agree to do God's will.

Did Jesus create Lucifer as a baby? Not as a baby, as an angel to assist with the administration of the universe.

In trials you don't always get the death penalty? Correct, but for those angels in high positions who are guilty of treason against the universe, you do.

We don't punish half the criminals we have? You're trying to apply a human context to the universe. Humans don't run the universe.

You don't agree that personalities never change because of your medical experience? Once again you're applying a human context to a universal one. The brain is not a biological storage device, it's a biological recevier/transmitter. If the brain did store all your personality and experiences and memory when you die and awake in your spirit body you wouldn't remember anything. The brain receives your personality, now, if the brain is damaged that limits the personality that the person can receive so, yes, the human earthly personality can change if the brain is damaged but the whole personality in heaven is still complete.

There was a war in heaven? A war of words that has been over since Jesus finished His earthly bestowal two thousand years ago, well, it's over except for Lucifer's trial. Humans think that anything outside of the 3rd dimensional material universe must be heaven. Heaven is the abode of God. There are many levels between the material universe and heaven.

 

[Rapture Era]

Why can't satan be redeemed? Do you want him to be?

Because he doesnt want to be redeemed, he wants to be worshiped, his choice, just like our choice. The difference is, once angels make a choice for or against God thats it. We can reject God, come to our senses and accept His free gift of salvation, but that is your choice and whatever you choose to do before you die, that will be your eternal decision to spend it in either heaven or hell.
Not only did Satan rebel against God but he convinced one third of the angels to go with him, that was his choice.

 

[Rapture Era]

Where am I getting my ideas about who goes to heaven and who doesn't? Look up in the right corner of my posts, it says my religion. Also, as far as who really gets to go to heaven and who really doesn't, the only thing you have to do is agree to do God's will.

Just curious, where did the Urantia Book come from? Who authored it and what is their authority to its truth?
Never mind, WOW! Did a little investigating. Are you aware of this?
The Urantia Book Spiritual Scam | Religious figures (modern)

 

[Super Universe]

Just curious, where did the Urantia Book come from? Who authored it and what is their authority to its truth?

That's a good question. If you're trying to say that the source determines the validity of information, even a child can be right and even a college professor can be wrong. Is the bible truth?

There was a couple driving across the US with their two children. They pulled off the freeway to get some gas and a bite to eat. Leaving the restaurant they couldn't find their way back to the freeway so they pulled up next to a man at a bus stop. "Hey, can you tell us how to get back on the freeway heading west". The man gave them directions and they drove off. The man said to the lady in the vehicle "I don't think we should follow those directions." The lady said "Why not, he seemed like he knew what he was talking about". The man said "Didn't you notice he had sunglasses and a white cane. He's blind." And the lady replied "Oh, you're right."

The blind man had just gone blind from old age cataracts but he had lived in that city his entire life and gave them accurate directions.