Why Blasphemy is dangerous

[stvdv]

No I didn't just quote some verses of peace. I categorically qualified verses you quoted showing that they only apply in circumstances where idolators are the bullies.
[Qur'an 9:4] "Excepting those of the idolaters with whom you have entered into a treaty and who have not subsequently failed you in anything nor aided anyone against you. So fulfil to these the treaty you have made with them till their term. Surely, Allah loves those who are righteous."
[Qur'an 9:6] "And if anyone of the idolaters ask protection of thee, grant him protection so that he may hear the word of Allah; then convey him to his place of security. That is because they are a people who have no knowledge".

Thank you, that is true, these verses are not violent. Granting protection is a nice thing to do, as well as keeping a treaty.

Also, Muhammad promoted mutilation, cutting off hands and feet, burning, and crucifying people.
I don't care what the context is. Even serial-killers and terrorists like Taliban and ISIS don't deserve to be tortured like that.

Before I try to answer the remaining argument you may concede at least that the "Islam promotes killing of all idolators" concept is completely wrong on your part.

All the other allegations can be proven to be false, disconnected, nothing to do with Islam easily. You need to provide evidence from the Qur'an for each of the allegations because unless you don't they are all allegations and nothing more. Maybe I'll learn something ...

You have a point here, that there are verses telling "not to kill all idolators"
@PopeADope has a very valid point also. If you want him to concede then you should also concede IMO.
The valid point is this. There are verses that are violent. And we have proof that those verses are "not smart" to put it lightly
Why I can claim this, that is because there are many ISIS and other Islamists who do study Quran well, interpret and use the violent verses in a violent way. That is FACT.
As long as a Muslim can not admit that "in 2018" these verses are indeed questionable, seeing the negative impact on many Muslims, I understand @PopeADope's point

These FACTS you can't talk away using other verses.
"Acts speak louder than words" is a very good proverb. So the ISIS + islamist acts in name of Quran does say quite a lot about The Quran
I do not demean or belittle the Quran. But if so many (even scholars) fail to interpret correctly, then it is dangerous to quote "Quran is perfect" IMO

I said the Qur'an says "slay the Idolators wherever you find them".
It does say that!

I have seen similar verses also. I try to understand in context. But I must conclude that the Quran fails here. ISIS and many islamists are proof of this also
So IMHO these Quran verses better be updated. And that is why Bahaullah came. To update where Quran failed [maybe not when given but definitely now]

Reading about violence, looking at violent movies provoke violence easily. That is simple psychology and empirically easy proven.

 

[Spiderman]

Thank you, that is true, these verses are not violent. Granting protection is a nice thing to do, as well as keeping a treaty.




You have a point here, that there are verses telling "not to kill all idolators"
@PopeADope has a very valid point also. If you want him to concede then you should also concede IMO.
The valid point is this. There are verses that are violent. And we have proof that those verses are "not smart" to put it lightly
Why I can claim this, that is because there are many ISIS and other Islamists who do study Quran well, interpret and use the violent verses in a violent way. That is FACT.
As long as a Muslim can not admit that "in 2018" these verses are indeed questionable, seeing the negative impact on many Muslims, I understand @PopeADope's point

These FACTS you can't talk away using other verses.
"Acts speak louder than words" is a very good proverb. So the ISIS + islamist acts in name of Quran does say quite a lot about The Quran
I do not demean or belittle the Quran. But if so many (even scholars) fail to interpret correctly, then it is dangerous to quote "Quran is perfect" IMO


I have seen similar verses also. I try to understand in context. But I must conclude that the Quran fails here. ISIS and many islamists are proof of this also
So IMHO these Quran verses better be updated. And that is why Bahaullah came. To update where Quran failed [maybe not when given but definitely now]

Reading about violence, looking at violent movies provoke violence easily. That is simple psychology and empirically easy proven.

Sure, im willing to concede that "slay the Idolators wherever you find them" doesn't mean "slay the Idolators wherever you find them".... Got it!

It is still misleading and a dangerous verse!

Surely, extremist groups hate Idolators because of how much the Qur'an says Idolators are enemies of Allah and his messenger.

All Muslims are probably aware that Mecca was full of Polytheist Idols and shrines that Muhammad destroyed, and every Muslim is supposed to go to Mecca in their life to celebrate Muhammad's victory over Polytheist Meccans!

 

[KT Shamim]

slay the idolaters wherever you find them” – Quran 9:5

Excellent. Thank you. So let's quote the very next verse:
[Qur'an 9:6] And if anyone of the idolaters ask protection of thee, grant him protection so that he may hear the word of Allah; then convey him to his place of security. That is because they are a people who have no knowledge.

Quoting a small part of the verse is literally quoting it out of context. Is it fair to blame the Qur'an if ISIS/etc. quote it out of context.

I think we need to discuss three points:
1. If the Qur'an within a verse, right after a verse, and right before a verse contextualizes the killing of idolators should we blame the Qur'an when ISIS/etc. hide those verses?
2. Is it fair to say "ISIS + islamist acts in name of Quran does say quite a lot about The Quran" @stvdv . Is ISIS being hypocrites not a possibility? Is it not possible they hide and mislead? Can they be trusted to quote the Qur'an accurately? Is it fair to simply say "well a bunch of scholars say Qur'an calls for slaying of all disbelievers so it must be true"?
3. Finally, we need to discuss why Qur'an allowed violence at all. Wouldn't it have been easier simply if it didn't allow violence at all?

 

[stvdv]

Sure, im willing to concede that "slay the Idolators wherever you find them" doesn't mean "slay the Idolators wherever you find them".... Got it!

It is still misleading and a dangerous verse!

Surely, extremist groups hate Idolators because of how much the Qur'an says Idolators are enemies of Allah and his messenger.

All Muslims are probably aware that Mecca was full of Polytheist Idols and shrines that Muhammad destroyed, and every Muslim is supposed to go to Mecca in their life to celebrate Muhammad's victory over Polytheist Meccans!

https://quran.com/9/1-15?translations=20
I read the verses prior also. They soften the blow a little. But still they give the blow. So how I read it, your verse is pretty much violent after all.
Maybe in Muhammad's time it was needed. I don't judge on that. I don't care even. I live now. And in this time to use these verses is disgusting, and why?
It belittles and demeans polytheism, stating it as a fact. From there all the trouble starts. The writer (Muhammad) failed to use the words "In my humble opinion"
So not respectful. And then all the threats mentioned in these verses are obvious. So much arrogance speaks from these words. God is about Love and compassion

I do remember my Master once saying "In previous Avatar incarnations I came to destroy/kill the bad guys. Can't do it now, I had to kill them all. Now the Avatar came with the sword of Love, and Love is the way in this Age". So from this I conclude that it's not even important to argue whether or not Quran was good/bad at it's time, but in the present time we have a new formula "Love". And in that light, Quran and Bible need to be used very careful. All violent verses can't be used anymore. And both Quran and Bible have plenty of these.

 

[KT Shamim]

"Acts speak louder than words" is a very good proverb. So the ISIS + islamist acts in name of Quran does say quite a lot about The Quran

What about Muslims who annually donated blood to honor 9/11 victims in the name of Islam?
What about Muslims who cry out love for all; hatred for none in the name of Islam?
What about Muslims believe the Qur'an teaches patience in the face of blasphemy?
What about Muslims who believe in wars were allowed only to spread freedom of religion?

If it is fair to think ISIS actions say quite a lot about the Qur'an then is it not fair to say that actions of Muslims who think the exact opposite of ISIS also says quite a lot about the Qur'an.

Maybe (god-forbid) the Qur'an is contradictory. Or the Qur'an is actually peaceful and ISIS is out-of-context? Or the Qur'an is actually violent and peaceful Muslims are out-of-context?

In either case a study of the Qur'an is called for. And that is what I am trying to provide. Evidence, verse-by-verse that Islamic wars were always defensive, always more-than-justified, and still very forgiving. And that ISIS always quotes verses out-of-context.

 

[KT Shamim]

https://quran.com/9/1-15?translations=20
I read the verses prior also. They soften the blow a little. But still they give the blow. So how I read it, your verse is pretty much violent after all.
Maybe in Muhammad's time it was needed. I don't judge on that. I don't care even. I live now. And in this time to use these verses is disgusting, and why?
It belittles and demeans polytheism, stating it as a fact. From there all the trouble starts. The writer (Muhammad) failed to use the words "In my humble opinion"
So not respectful. And then all the threats mentioned in these verses are obvious. So much arrogance speaks from these words. God is about Love and compassion

I do remember my Master once saying "In previous Avatar incarnations I came to destroy/kill the bad guys. Can't do it now, I had to kill them all. Now the Avatar came with the sword of Love, and Love is the way in this Age". So from this I conclude that it's not even important to argue whether or not Quran was good/bad at it's time, but in the present time we have a new formula "Love". And in that light, Quran and Bible need to be used very careful. All violent verses can't be used anymore. And both Quran and Bible have plenty of these.

In my humble opinion the Qur'an is the Word of God and Muhammad (saw) saying "In my humble opinion" would have been a lie since God was, indeed, the Author here. And false humility is no humility.

I understand now where some of our disagreement lies. I believe the highest form of morality balances forgiveness and revenge. You believe the highest form of morality is absolute forgiveness and there is no room for violence.

I believe every deed is only a virtue when acted upon at the correct time and place. While you believe that some deeds such as forgiveness are absolutely moral always the higher ground under all circumstances.

In my humble opinion the Qur'an teaches us the times when violence is justified and the times when forgiveness is the way to go. The aim in both cases being peace.
In your opinion peace can only be attained through forgiveness.

 

[stvdv]

Excellent. Thank you. So let's quote the very next verse:
[Qur'an 9:6] And if anyone of the idolaters ask protection of thee, grant him protection so that he may hear the word of Allah; then convey him to his place of security. That is because they are a people who have no knowledge.

Quoting a small part of the verse is literally quoting it out of context. Is it fair to blame the Qur'an if ISIS/etc. quote it out of context.

I think we need to discuss three points:
1. If the Qur'an within a verse, right after a verse, and right before a verse contextualizes the killing of idolators should we blame the Qur'an when ISIS/etc. hide those verses?
2. Is it fair to say "ISIS + islamist acts in name of Quran does say quite a lot about The Quran" @stvdv . Is ISIS being hypocrites not a possibility? Is it not possible they hide and mislead? Can they be trusted to quote the Qur'an accurately? Is it fair to simply say "well a bunch of scholars say Qur'an calls for slaying of all disbelievers so it must be true"?
3. Finally, we need to discuss why Qur'an allowed violence at all. Wouldn't it have been easier simply if it didn't allow violence at all?

Good points:
1: Of course we need to see the context, which I did. And they do belittle polytheism quite a bit, without saying IMHO. So that is violence to start with. See also point 3:
2: I really do hope we can conclude ISIS and Islamists do not represent Islam. Would be good though that Muslims openly speak out "indeed Quran is the cause of this" because if Quran was not there these ISIS and Islamists would not act this way [misusing verses from the Quran]. So both are true: a)ISIS is wrong interpreting verses + b)Quran is too suggestive in violence + c)Quran is obviously too difficult to read in this time, hence ISIS etc.
3: See my other reply in which I share what my Master told about the past "Previous Ages violence was used, this age Love is the key". So IMO Quran needs on the front cover the statement "All violent act in this book should NOT be used; Love and Peace is the way to go now". Don't you agree to this nice solution. Keep the Quran but also make it safe so that misinterpretation can be avoided. And also all "hate Imaam's" should be forbidden to speak IMO. And this should be issued by highest institute of Islam.

Something along these lines is needed to give non Muslims confidence that Quran indeed has good verses in them. But now Muslims all try to smooth verses by other verses. But do not admit that indeed there are violent verses that are misinterpreted on a large scale. And they are not willing to take concrete actions, like I mentioned. If not done, my guess is, that it might all get worse, not better.

 

[Spiderman]

Excellent. Thank you. So let's quote the very next verse:
[Qur'an 9:6] And if anyone of the idolaters ask protection of thee, grant him protection so that he may hear the word of Allah; then convey him to his place of security. That is because they are a people who have no knowledge.

Quoting a small part of the verse is literally quoting it out of context. Is it fair to blame the Qur'an if ISIS/etc. quote it out of context.

I think we need to discuss three points:
1. If the Qur'an within a verse, right after a verse, and right before a verse contextualizes the killing of idolators should we blame the Qur'an when ISIS/etc. hide those verses?
2. Is it fair to say "ISIS + islamist acts in name of Quran does say quite a lot about The Quran" @stvdv . Is ISIS being hypocrites not a possibility? Is it not possible they hide and mislead? Can they be trusted to quote the Qur'an accurately? Is it fair to simply say "well a bunch of scholars say Qur'an calls for slaying of all disbelievers so it must be true"?
3. Finally, we need to discuss why Qur'an allowed violence at all. Wouldn't it have been easier simply if it didn't allow violence at all?

Muhammad should not talk about torturing and mutilating people. If you have to kill in self-defense, okay.

If you have to kill me quickly, im okay with that. Torturing and mutilating people, leaving them forever disfigured and disabled is always wrong.

Also, the Qur'an repeatedly dehumanizes people and talks about their tortures in this life and torment in the next.

That is disgusting!

The Koran also says to take no Jews or Christians as your friends.

 

[stvdv]

What about Muslims who annually donated blood to honor 9/11 victims in the name of Islam?
What about Muslims who cry out love for all; hatred for none in the name of Islam?
What about Muslims believe the Qur'an teaches patience in the face of blasphemy?
What about Muslims who believe in wars were allowed only to spread freedom of religion?

If it is fair to think ISIS actions say quite a lot about the Qur'an then is it not fair to say that actions of Muslims who think the exact opposite of ISIS also says quite a lot about the Qur'an.

Maybe (god-forbid) the Qur'an is contradictory. Or the Qur'an is actually peaceful and ISIS is out-of-context? Or the Qur'an is actually violent and peaceful Muslims are out-of-context?

In either case a study of the Qur'an is called for. And that is what I am trying to provide. Evidence, verse-by-verse that Islamic wars were always defensive, always more-than-justified, and still very forgiving. And that ISIS always quotes verses out-of-context.

These are very good.
But still I think the Quran needs on front page something like "Violent verses are NOT to be used"
Because there are too many Muslims (Islamists) who don't read Islam correctly. They need to be told on the cover of Quran, so as to never forget it again
And also all "hate Imaams", we have them in Holland, should be forbidden. And highest Imaam institute should take care of that
Only when from the top they take these decisions, and put it in front page in newspapers daily, those blind ISIS, Islamists can maybe be changed

 

[Spiderman]

Good points:
1: Of course we need to see the context, which I did. And they do belittle polytheism quite a bit, without saying IMHO. So that is violence to start with. See also point 3:
2: I really do hope we can conclude ISIS and Islamists do not represent Islam. Would be good though that Muslims openly speak out "indeed Quran is the cause of this" because if Quran was not there these ISIS and Islamists would not act this way [misusing verses from the Quran]. So both are true: a)ISIS is wrong interpreting verses + b)Quran is too suggestive in violence + c)Quran is obviously too difficult to read in this time, hence ISIS etc.
3: See my other reply in which I share what my Master told about the past "Previous Ages violence was used, this age Love is the key". So IMO Quran needs on the front cover the statement "All violent act in this book should NOT be used; Love and Peace is the way to go now". Don't you agree to this nice solution. Keep the Quran but also make it safe so that misinterpretation can be avoided. And also all "hate Imaam's" should be forbidden to speak IMO. And this should be issued by highest institute of Islam.

Something along these lines is needed to give non Muslims confidence that Quran indeed has good verses in them. But now Muslims all try to smooth verses by other verses. But do not admit that indeed there are violent verses that are misinterpreted on a large scale. And they are not willing to take concrete actions, like I mentioned. If not done, my guess is, that it might all get worse, not better.

If the Qur'an is the word of God, and Allah is so cruel that he wants people burned, scalded with boiling water, crucified, and their hands and feet cut off, I don't want to worship such a cruel sadistic God! Ever!

If that is how God is, the worst thing that ever happened to me was my mother gave birth to me rather than get an abortion!

 

[stvdv]

1: In my humble opinion the Qur'an is the Word of God and Muhammad (saw) saying "In my humble opinion" would have been a lie since God was, indeed, the Author here. And false humility is no humility.

2: I understand now where some of our disagreement lies. I believe the highest form of morality balances forgiveness and revenge. You believe the highest form of morality is absolute forgiveness and there is no room for violence.

3: I believe every deed is only a virtue when acted upon at the correct time and place. While you believe that some deeds such as forgiveness are absolutely moral always the higher ground under all circumstances.

4: In my humble opinion the Qur'an teaches us the times when violence is justified and the times when forgiveness is the way to go. The aim in both cases being peace.
In your opinion peace can only be attained through forgiveness.

Good observations:
1: So how to tell the highest teaching without belittling others who believe different is the key for the solution. Agreed IMHO is good for humans who do stupid, not for God.
1: My Master never belittles, and still teaches also the highest teachings. It's is just about choice of words. IMHO is not needed [my Master would never use IMHO]
2: A bit violence is no problem. Slap on the head, but don't chop of the head. There is a middle way.
3: Not exactly. My Master slapped me so many times [physical], but He did it out of Love, so each slap made me more happy. I never lost my fingers/hands.
4: As I explained in the other reply "Also my Master says that in previous times Avatars came with the sword. Now the sword of Love".
*: People refuse to get updates, that is the problem IMO. Quran gave update from Bible, Christians won't accept. Bahaullah updated Quran, Muslims don't accept.

 

[KT Shamim]

Muhammad should not talk about torturing and mutilating people ... Torturing and mutilating people, leaving them forever disfigured and disabled is always wrong.

Okay would it be possible to provide references for torturing and mutilation from the Qur'an. It would be good to learn, thank you.
Gradually we are coming to some sort of a agreement. Dialogue is key. Takes long but winning hearts business if what Islam is all about (I understand you don't agree with that view yet).

 

[stvdv]

If the Qur'an is the word of God, and Allah is so cruel that he wants people burned, scalded with boiling water, crucified, and their hands and feet cut off, I don't want to worship such a cruel sadistic God! Ever!

If that is how God is, the worst thing that ever happened to me was my mother gave birth to me rather than get an abortion!

I also don't want such a God at all. And I am glad my Master gave beautiful scriptures with ZERO violence at all. So I don't need Quran and Bible. I only accept the positive verses

 

[Spiderman]

Okay would it be possible to provide references for torturing and mutilation from the Qur'an. It would be good to learn, thank you.
Gradually we are coming to some sort of a agreement. Dialogue is key. Takes long but winning hearts business if what Islam is all about (I understand you don't agree with that view yet).

I already gave you verses about torture on this thread! HELLO!

 

[KT Shamim]

I already gave you verses about torture on this thread! HELLO!

Forgive me, would it be possible to just restate torture and mutilation verses?

 

[Spiderman]

Forgive me, would it be possible to just restate torture and mutilation verses?

"The recompense of those who fight Allah and His messenger, and seek to make corruption in the land, is that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from alternate sides or that they be banished from the land; that is their disgrace in this world and in the Hereafter they will have a great torment." (Qur'an 5:33)

I've heard Muslims explain this in multiple ways. One is that it is what happens to us infidels after our death. That is just as sick, psychopathic, disgusting, and wrong as doing it to us in this life, and if it lasts for all eternity, that is worse than cutting off our hands and feet in this life. Far worse! Also, if Allah treats us like that, why can't ISIS treat us like that?

Another Muslim told me that Muhammad didn't have prisons to put his prisoners of war, so he cut off their hands and feet so they could not get away. That is still sick, cruel, sadistic, vicious treatment that no human should go through. It would be much nicer to just quickly cut off our heads than make us live a full lifespan where we can't change our clothes, use the bathroom, or feed ourselves. What if we convert to Islam? How can we be productive members of society with no hands and feet?

That's what makes me so angry about Muslims is how often they torture people, cut out tongues, cut off hands, cut off noses, cut off ears and lips and what not, or condemn people to a full miserable life-span under tyranny where lovers of freedom can't speak their mind. I don't care if you put me before a firing squad or cut off my head! I do care if you leave me permanently disfigured. That is much worse than death imo, and Muslims keep putting people through these tortures!

 

[KT Shamim]

If the Qur'an is the word of God, and Allah is so cruel that he wants people burned, scalded with boiling water, crucified, and their hands and feet cut off, I don't want to worship such a cruel sadistic God! Ever!

If that is how God is, the worst thing that ever happened to me was my mother gave birth to me rather than get an abortion!

Well I'd agree with that if Hell was eternal. Which it isn't. Rather hell is curative according to my humble understanding of Islam. True it is a very invasive surgery and not mere medicine ... but a curative all the same.

 

[Spiderman]

Well I'd agree with that if Hell was eternal. Which it isn't. Rather hell is curative according to my humble understanding of Islam. True it is a very invasive surgery and not mere medicine ... but a curative all the same.

So Allah cuts off their hands and feet, burns them, pours boiling water on them, cures them, then gives them hands and feet back and embraces them with open, loving arms?

If Allah gets to cut off hands and feet, why can't ISIS cut off hands and feet?

Is Allah giving a good example to follow, putting such cruelty in his book?

Sounds like Allah is as cruel as Adolf Hitler!

 

[Tiapan]

Unfortunately many religious groups take their various god fantasies seriously.
They have been brainwashed since they were young and were never given the opportunity or allowed to question these beliefs.
Instead of developing their own educated independent opinions.
All religions are simply weird cults

The religious have had a strangle hold on societies for thousands of years.
Fortunately the West has gone through its renaissance and age of enlightenment.
The Islamic world has not yet had that experience, being dragged into the 21st century kicking and screaming.
It will take time for them to emerge from their recent stone-age.
This also applies to christian and buddhist groups to a lesser extent.

The world is now far too PC
When I was young, I was taught
"Sticks and stones may break my bones BUT names will never hurt me".
and
"Turn the other Cheek"
In other words say what you like and I can choose to listen or walk away, but if the response involves explosives AK47s grenades cars and knives then that is just an outright criminal act with zero justification.
Charlie Ebbdo, the Swedish and Dutch cartoons are examples of freedom of expression making some very poignant social comments on these weird beliefs.
So anyone who questions these religious beliefs must die concept, is typical of religious zealous fanaticism totalitarian systems no different Nazism, Stalinism and Maoism
These are systems we fought three world wars over (2xhot 1xcold) in the last 100 years.

So while religious freedom is great in the minds of many, I would prefer to live in a world without any of these weird illogical cults.

Education seems the only real remedy.
(How much real education do the young really get in a Pakistan madrassas.
Seems they only learn to rote learn the Koran, forget art, maths and science).

Cheers

 

[stvdv]

So Allah cuts off their hands and feet, burns them, pours boiling water on them, cures them, then gives them hands and feet back and embraces them with open, loving arms?
If Allah gets to cut off hands and feet, why can't ISIS cut off hands and feet?
Is Allah giving a good example to follow, putting such cruelty in his book?
Sounds like Allah is as cruel as Adolf Hitler!

Good points.
Sometimes I see such mean people, like rapists or so. Then even I get occasional a cruel thought "better to cut their penis off".
It is not such a Christ like thought I must admit, but what to do? You never had this thought @PopeADope ?