Why Blasphemy is dangerous

[stvdv]

So Allah cuts off their hands and feet, burns them, pours boiling water on them, cures them, then gives them hands and feet back and embraces them with open, loving arms?
If Allah gets to cut off hands and feet, why can't ISIS cut off hands and feet?
Is Allah giving a good example to follow, putting such cruelty in his book?
Sounds like Allah is as cruel as Adolf Hitler!

Surgeries are painful. And people bring all this on themselves by choosing to lie, cheat, steal, worship other Gods, reject Prophets, etc. The punishment would always be less than proportionate. Everyone will get more than what they deserve but many humans are so evil that despite God's mercy they still go to hell.

Thats absolutely preposterous that you would compare crucifixion, pouring boiling water on people, and cutting off hands and feet to "surgery".
You are making things up.
Muhammad never said that those tortures were to cure people (that i can recall).

Thanks for replying to this one. I felt something was way off. You used the right words.

I am glad this Muslim replied. Now I have finally proof how a Muslim thinks about a non-Muslim believer = no respect at all
"Surgeries are painful. And people bring all this on themselves by choosing to lie, cheat, steal, worship other Gods, reject Prophets, ...go to hell."

@PopeADope: Please correct me if I misinterpreted this. You know my mother tongue is not english. I don't want to draw the wrong conclusion here.
I talk only [to avoid confusion and not giving a chance to twist my words] about the part " worship other Gods, reject Prophets, ...go to hell."

I can hardly believe a human being is saying these words.

 

[Spiderman]

Thanks for replying to this one. I felt something was way off. You used the right words.

I am glad this Muslim replied. Now I have finally proof how a Muslim thinks about a non-Muslim believer = no respect at all
"Surgeries are painful. And people bring all this on themselves by choosing to lie, cheat, steal, worship other Gods, reject Prophets, ...go to hell."

@PopeADope: Please correct me if I misinterpreted this. You know my mother tongue is not english. I don't want to draw the wrong conclusion here.
I talk only [to avoid confusion and not giving a chance to twist my words] about the part " worship other Gods, reject Prophets, ...go to hell."

I can hardly believe a human being is saying these words.

Yes,
Even good, humble, peaceful Muslims never say, "Muhammad was mistaken", or "the Qur'an contains cruelty and error".

Instead, i show them the cruelty, and they defend it, and think people deserve it for Idolatry or rejecting Muhammad.

It's sick! Even "peaceful" Muslims do this!

 

[stvdv]

Yes,
Even good, humble, peaceful Muslims never say, "Muhammad was mistaken", or "the Qur'an contains cruelty and error".

Instead, i show them the cruelty, and they defend it, and think people deserve it for Idolatry or rejecting Muhammad.

It's sick! Even "peaceful" Muslims do this!

Okay so my interpretation was correct: Muslims just want me "in hell", disrespecting my prophet and belief
I was really hoping it was wrong. Could not believe this after all the other replies this Muslim gave. He seemed genuine, 1 more desillusion.

Good thing is, this doubt is now solved forever.

You know what my Guru said "Muslims will come last to God". Now I understand fully. Spiritual Ego and arrogance keeps them away from God.

I think you might be right with "even peaceful Muslims do this"
I asked them many times straight to the point, they always smartly dodge the bullet. But I am smarter and know what they don't tell of course.

@PopeADope: Have you read Quran verse 5:51. That is the best verse in Quran. I read it many times. It point blank says that Muslims should never move to non Muslim countries. Now I understand why. No respect for non-Muslims. Means you can hold your breath and see when trouble will start.

We as non-Muslims should hold them to this verse and reject them coming to our country. Like in italy they have to sign "I will abide by Italian Law" and they still refuse, the only group that refuses. That tells me all. I will mail Geert Wilders telling him to use this verse in his battle for this injustice.

 

[Spiderman]

Okay so my interpretation was correct: Muslims just want me "in hell", disrespecting my prophet and belief
I was really hoping it was wrong. Could not believe this after all the other replies this Muslim gave. He seemed genuine, 1 more desillusion.

Good thing is, this doubt is now solved forever.

You know what my Guru said "Muslims will come last to God". Now I understand fully. Spiritual Ego and arrogance keeps them away from God.

I think you might be right with "even peaceful Muslims do this"
I asked them many times straight to the point, they always smartly dodge the bullet. But I am smarter and know what they don't tell of course.

@PopeADope: Have you read Quran verse 5:51. That is the best verse in Quran. I read it many times. It point blank says that Muslims should never move to non Muslim countries. Now I understand why. No respect for non-Muslims. Means you can hold your breath and see when trouble will start.

We as non-Muslims should hold them to this verse and reject them coming to our country. Like in italy they have to sign "I will abide by Italian Law" and they still refuse, the only group that refuses. That tells me all. I will mail Geert Wilders telling him to use this verse in his battle for this injustice.

Take no Jews or Christians as your friends, it says.

Any Muslim who doesn't think you and I will go to hell, is not practicing the Muslim faith!

 

[KT Shamim]

I respect that Muslims in Muslim countries follow their Quran, even if cruel. Christians should not impose Christianity. Evangelizing is "not done"
I believe a Christian should obey Muslim Law in Muslim country. And Muslim should obey Christian Law in Christian country. Do you agree?
Do you think Muslims have the right to impose Muslim Laws on Christian based countries (when living/moving there)?

Thanks for replying to this one. I felt something was way off. You used the right words.

I am glad this Muslim replied. Now I have finally proof how a Muslim thinks about a non-Muslim believer = no respect at all
"Surgeries are painful. And people bring all this on themselves by choosing to lie, cheat, steal, worship other Gods, reject Prophets, ...go to hell."

@PopeADope: Please correct me if I misinterpreted this. You know my mother tongue is not english. I don't want to draw the wrong conclusion here.
I talk only [to avoid confusion and not giving a chance to twist my words] about the part " worship other Gods, reject Prophets, ...go to hell."

I can hardly believe a human being is saying these words.

Where did I say only non-Muslims go to hell? Muslims go to hell too. In fact, many non-Muslims can end up in heaven. It says so in the Qur'an.

[Qur'an 2:63] "Surely, the Believers, and the Jews, and the Christians and the Sabians — whichever party from among these truly believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good deeds — shall have their reward with their Lord, and no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve."
[Qur'an 5:70] "Surely, those who have believed, and the Jews, and the Sabians, and the Christians — whoso believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good deeds, on them shall come no fear, nor shall they grieve."

But once people do end up in hell (regardless of the religion they claimed to follow) they would be surgeried upon which is painful.

 

[Spiderman]

Where did I say only non-Muslims go to hell? Muslims go to hell too. In fact, many non-Muslims can end up in heaven. It says so in the Qur'an.

[Qur'an 2:63] "Surely, the Believers, and the Jews, and the Christians and the Sabians — whichever party from among these truly believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good deeds — shall have their reward with their Lord, and no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve."
[Qur'an 5:70] "Surely, those who have believed, and the Jews, and the Sabians, and the Christians — whoso believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good deeds, on them shall come no fear, nor shall they grieve."

But once people do end up in hell (regardless of the religion they claimed to follow) they would be surgeried upon which is painful.

The Qur'an says contradictions as well.

Also, those verses you quoted do not include Idolators or unbelievers.

And crucifixion and dismemberment is not surgery, but cruel torture.

 

[Spiderman]

Where did I say only non-Muslims go to hell? Muslims go to hell too. In fact, many non-Muslims can end up in heaven. It says so in the Qur'an.

[Qur'an 2:63] "Surely, the Believers, and the Jews, and the Christians and the Sabians — whichever party from among these truly believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good deeds — shall have their reward with their Lord, and no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve."
[Qur'an 5:70] "Surely, those who have believed, and the Jews, and the Sabians, and the Christians — whoso believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good deeds, on them shall come no fear, nor shall they grieve."

But once people do end up in hell (regardless of the religion they claimed to follow) they would be surgeried upon which is painful.

Also, you are backpedaling.

I don't remember anywhere that the Qur'an says hell is only temporary and then you get out.

It also said those tortures and mutilation are for those who fight Allah and his messenger.

That would include many Jews and Christians, including myself!

 

[Spiderman]

Where did I say only non-Muslims go to hell? Muslims go to hell too. In fact, many non-Muslims can end up in heaven. It says so in the Qur'an.

[Qur'an 2:63] "Surely, the Believers, and the Jews, and the Christians and the Sabians — whichever party from among these truly believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good deeds — shall have their reward with their Lord, and no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve."
[Qur'an 5:70] "Surely, those who have believed, and the Jews, and the Sabians, and the Christians — whoso believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good deeds, on them shall come no fear, nor shall they grieve."

But once people do end up in hell (regardless of the religion they claimed to follow) they would be surgeried upon which is painful.

Where does the Qur'an say pouring boiling water on people, crucifying them, or cutting off their hands and feet is surgery??

Until you can show me, I caught you telling lies to justify and minimize sadistic tortures in your "holy book!"

 

[KT Shamim]

@stvdv @PopeADope

The Qur'an says contradictions as well.

Also, those verses you quoted do not include Idolators or unbelievers.

And crucifixion and dismemberment is not surgery, but cruel torture.

"Sabians" includes everyone other than Jews and Christians. Hindus for example would be counted among Sabians.

Let's first differentiate between punishments Muslims are permitted to give and punishments Only God gives out. Furthermore, another assumption you are making is that punishments in the hereafter are literally as the Qur'an portrays them while, in fact, the punishments (and heaven for that matter) can not be imagined but only metaphors are used to explain.

Also, you are backpedaling.

I don't remember anywhere that the Qur'an says hell is only temporary and then you get out.

[Qur'an 11:107-108] "As for those who will prove unfortunate, they shall be in the Fire, wherein there shall be for them sighing and sobbing,
Abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, excepting what thy Lord may will. Surely, thy Lord does bring about what He pleases."
[Qur'an 11:109] "But as for those who will prove fortunate, they shall be in Heaven; abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, excepting what thy Lord may will — a gift that shall not be cut off."

Concept of eternal hell is mostly a fault of scholars of Islam and people are right to question it.

It also said those tortures and mutilation are for those who fight Allah and his messenger.

That would include many Jews and Christians, including myself!

Firstly, I don't know if it includes you.

Secondly, we need to differentiate between this world punishments prescribed to be meted out by humans and hereafter punishments that Only God will mete out. The question is only whether crimes should be rewarded or punished. Obviously heinous crimes would be punished heinously. Still, I state people will get more than what they deserve (much more) (i.e. less punishment than they deserve and more reward than they deserve).

Where does the Qur'an say pouring boiling water on people, crucifying them, or cutting off their hands and feet is surgery??

Until you can show me, I caught you telling lies to justify and minimize sadistic tortures in your "holy book!"

That's a valid point. You are asking proof that punishments in the Qur'an are according to the Qur'an curative and not simply according to me. I'm fuzzy on the references and will get back to you on that, insha'Allah. Let me know if I understood you correctly though.

 

[Spiderman]

@stvdv @PopeADope


"Sabians" includes everyone other than Jews and Christians. Hindus for example would be counted among Sabians.

Let's first differentiate between punishments Muslims are permitted to give and punishments Only God gives out. Furthermore, another assumption you are making is that punishments in the hereafter are literally as the Qur'an portrays them while, in fact, the punishments (and heaven for that matter) can not be imagined but only metaphors are used to explain.


[Qur'an 11:107-108] "As for those who will prove unfortunate, they shall be in the Fire, wherein there shall be for them sighing and sobbing,
Abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, excepting what thy Lord may will. Surely, thy Lord does bring about what He pleases."
[Qur'an 11:109] "But as for those who will prove fortunate, they shall be in Heaven; abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, excepting what thy Lord may will — a gift that shall not be cut off."

Concept of eternal hell is mostly a fault of scholars of Islam and people are right to question it.


Firstly, I don't know if it includes you.

Secondly, we need to differentiate between this world punishments prescribed to be meted out by humans and hereafter punishments that Only God will mete out. The question is only whether crimes should be rewarded or punished. Obviously heinous crimes would be punished heinously. Still, I state people will get more than what they deserve (much more) (i.e. less punishment than they deserve and more reward than they deserve).


That's a valid point. You are asking proof that punishments in the Qur'an are according to the Qur'an curative and not simply according to me. I'm fuzzy on the references and will get back to you on that, insha'Allah. Let me know if I understood you correctly though.

You have not shown me where the Qua'ran gives your explanation of the tortures.

Also, the Qur'an often does not make a distinction between tortures Allah carries out, and what Muslims can do.

Essentially, a Muslim can interpret those verses many ways, and no one knows who is right.

The Qur'an essentially says Allah is a bigot, a sociopath, cruel, and sadistic. If Allah is that way, a sadistic Muslim will follow in Allah's example!

 

[KT Shamim]

I respect that Muslims in Muslim countries follow their Quran, even if cruel. Christians should not impose Christianity. Evangelizing is "not done"

I'm sorry but I don't respect that. Because in my opinion no Muslim countries follow the Qur'an and Islam. As a simple test case Islam forbids people to lie ... categorically.

But in their national interests all Muslim countries lie as convenient. Banning women driving, forcing people to follow Islamic personal laws, killing innocent women and children, etc. are all unIslamic acts.

I believe a Christian should obey Muslim Law in Muslim country. And Muslim should obey Christian Law in Christian country. Do you agree?
Do you think Muslims have the right to impose Muslim Laws on Christian based countries (when living/moving there)?

Obedience to the law of the land is an essential Islamic creed. All Prophets (Jesus, Confucious, Moses, Muhammad (saw)) migrated if the law was cruel rather than create internal rebellion and disorder. Yet which so-called Muslim militant group follows that teaching? Unfortunately, none.

[Qur'an 76:7-8]
A spring wherefrom the servants of Allah drink. They make it gush forth — a forceful gushing forth.
They fulfil their vow, and fear a day the evil of which is widespread.

As a citizen we all take an oath to obey the law. And we must Islamically obey it and stick to the vow we have made as citizens.

[Qur'an 4:60]
O ye who believe! obey Allah, and obey His Messenger and those who are in authority among you. And if you differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger if you are believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is best and most commendable in the end.

Thus the only exception is if a law of the land prevents you from fulfilling your obligatory religious obligations then you are to disobey the law (for example in Pakistan Ahmadi Muslims found doing Islamic acts is punished by law but Ahmadis still continue to do those acts).

 

[KT Shamim]

You have not shown me where the Qua'ran gives your explanation of the tortures.

Not yet I haven't. I accept that and said will get back to you. Yet when it comes to ...

Also, the Qur'an often does not make a distinction between tortures Allah carries out, and what Muslims can do.

... when it comes to your own arguments you feel free to throw around claims of confusion ...

Essentially, a Muslim can interpret those verses many ways, and no one knows who is right.

... and lack of clarity and multiple interpretations ...

The Qur'an essentially says Allah is a bigot, a sociopath, cruel, and sadistic. If Allah is that way, a sadistic Muslim will follow in Allah's example!

.. without offering proof.

You are unwilling to accept that terrorists are humans who intentionally or otherwise misread the Qur'an even though many verses (not yet all) I have shown are taken out of context. Yet you are very easily inclined to give them honesty points while happily decrying the Qur'an.

John tells Martha "if someone drives you out of your home you sure can kill them in self defense"
And Martha interprets "kill them" to mean kill everyone you disagree with. That is not John's fault. It is Martha's.

 

[Spiderman]

I'm sorry but I don't respect that. Because in my opinion no Muslim countries follow the Qur'an and Islam. As a simple test case Islam forbids people to lie ... categorically.

But in their national interests all Muslim countries lie as convenient. Banning women driving, forcing people to follow Islamic personal laws, killing innocent women and children, etc. are all unIslamic acts.


Obedience to the law of the land is an essential Islamic creed. All Prophets (Jesus, Confucious, Moses, Muhammad (saw)) migrated if the law was cruel rather than create internal rebellion and disorder. Yet which so-called Muslim militant group follows that teaching? Unfortunately, none.

[Qur'an 76:7-8]
A spring wherefrom the servants of Allah drink. They make it gush forth — a forceful gushing forth.
They fulfil their vow, and fear a day the evil of which is widespread.

As a citizen we all take an oath to obey the law. And we must Islamically obey it and stick to the vow we have made as citizens.

[Qur'an 4:60]
O ye who believe! obey Allah, and obey His Messenger and those who are in authority among you. And if you differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger if you are believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is best and most commendable in the end.

Thus the only exception is if a law of the land prevents you from fulfilling your obligatory religious obligations then you are to disobey the law (for example in Pakistan Ahmadi Muslims found doing Islamic acts is punished by law but Ahmadis still continue to do those acts).

Millions and millions of muslims disagree with you and interpret those verses to mean only Sharia law is to be respected.

Muhammad was a mass murderer who overthrew governments to impose his own.

The Qur'an is cruel, vicious, barbaric , and psychopathic. So, many Muslims are encouraged to be barbaric and psychopathic!

Torturing and killing people is not an unislamic act. It is promoted by a mass-murderering terrorist founder (Muhammad), encouraged in the Koran, and the practice of the first Muslims.

 

[KT Shamim]

Millions and millions of muslims disagree with you and interpret those verses to mean only Sharia law is to be respected.

Muhammad was a mass murderer who overthrew governments to impose his own.

The Qur'an is cruel, vicious, barbaric , and psychopathic. So, many Muslims are encouraged to be barbaric and psychopathic!

Torturing and killing people is not an unislamic act. It is promoted by a mass-murderering terrorist founder (Muhammad), encouraged in the Koran, and the practice of the first Muslims.

Well the Qur'an disagrees with "millions and millions of Muslims" then.
As preached and practised by the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community we promote "Love for All; Hatred for None", we donated blood to honor 9/11 victims annually, we are glad to clean-up on new year's eve, open schools in Africa, make water wells for free, cure people of cataract, spread the peaceful message of Islam to the corners of the Earth by serving God and by serving His creation, and engage in the Jihad of the pen to defend the Unity of Allah and the humanity for mankind.

 

[Spiderman]

@KT Shamim
Dont tell me i haven't offered proof.

I have shown you the Qur'an verses.

Cutting off hands and feet, crucifying people, pouring boiling water on them, and torturing them with fire and hooks of iron is the EPITOME of cruel, sadistic, vicious, barbaric, and psychopathic!

It is not okay under any circumstances!!!

How dare you accuse me of not providing proof! I did! You are the one defending psychopathic behavior and a regime that is is the epitome of hateful!

 

[Spiderman]

Well the Qur'an disagrees with "millions and millions of Muslims" then.
As preached and practised by the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community we promote "Love for All; Hatred for None", we donated blood to honor 9/11 victims annually, we are glad to clean-up on new year's eve, open schools in Africa, make water wells for free, cure people of cataract, spread the peaceful message of Islam to the corners of the Earth by serving God and by serving His creation, and engage in the Jihad of the pen to defend the Unity of Allah and the humanity for mankind.

You don't know what you are talking about and I proved your statement false with cruel, violent, sadistic tortures in the Qur'an!

Muhammad was a terrorist who personally cut off many heads like ISIS!

Extremist hateful Muslims are following the example of Muhammad!

You are the one who is refusing to follow the example of Muhammad!

 

[Spiderman]

@KT Shamim
Muslims who cut off heads, oppress others, loot, and steal, are doing what Muhammad did.

Muslims that don't cut off heads, promote bigotry and hate, or oppress others, are failing to do what Muhammad did.

The Qur'an and Hadiths prove this. It is Not an opinion. It is fact!

 

[KT Shamim]

@KT Shamim
Muslims who cut off heads, oppress others, loot, and steal, are doing what Muhammad did.

Muslims that don't cut off heads, promote bigotry and hate, or oppress others, are failing to do what Muhammad did.

The Qur'an and Hadiths prove this. It is Not an opinion. It is fact!

I guess I have to move on then.

Verses you presented I was answering one by one ... you never provided counter-arguments nor had the audacity to accept. Thus you failed to present proof because the verses you provided were countered.

You also mix up God's punishments and present them that ISIS has been given authority to mete out God's punishments to humans while, in fact, the Qur'an specifically forbade this:
[Qur'an 6:108] "And if Allah had enforced His will, they would not have set up gods with Him. And We have not made thee a keeper over them nor art thou over them a guardian."

And you put aside efforts by Muslims who claim that Islam is what makes them serve humanity. You didn't even bother asking me references for the services I claimed so you might investigate.

God give us guidance.

 

[Spiderman]

I guess I have to move on then.

Verses you presented I was answering one by one ... you never provided counter-arguments nor had the audacity to accept. Thus you failed to present proof because the verses you provided were countered.

You also mix up God's punishments and present them that ISIS has been given authority to mete out God's punishments to humans while, in fact, the Qur'an specifically forbade this:
[Qur'an 6:108] "And if Allah had enforced His will, they would not have set up gods with Him. And We have not made thee a keeper over them nor art thou over them a guardian."

And you put aside efforts by Muslims who claim that Islam is what makes them serve humanity. You didn't even bother asking me references for the services I claimed so you might investigate.

God give us guidance.

Unbelievable,
I pointed out psychopathic, sadistic, cruel verses of the greatest degree of inhumane torture and punishment, and there is no way to counter it. There is no excuse for such merciless cruelty under any circumstances! That gruesome torture is FAR worse than what ISIS usually did, and there is nothing in the Qur'an that says, it's only a brief temporary punishment. The Qur'an doesn't always explain that such tortures are only for Allah to inflict! And even if they were, Muhammad is claiming that Allah is the epitome of a brutal, merciless psychopath!

I proved you wrong, and now you are coming up with lies!

No, you didn't answer them one by one. You gave many opinions that aren't even supported in the Qur'an. Some of your opinions were verses in the Qur'an, but just because a person provides verses of love and tolerance, there are other verses that say the opposite. And extremists use those verses to justify hate, oppression, cruelty, mass-killings, mutilation, and torture!!!

The Qur'an repeatedly condemns those who reject Allah and his messenger. The Qur'an repeatedly condemns polytheists. Muhammad personally destroyed many shrines and statues that were sacred to Polytheists! That is pure bigotry and intolerance.

Muhammad cut off the heads of many Jews as well.

Hence, you lost the argument!

Peaceful Muslims do not imitate Muhammad. Violent hateful Muslims imitate Muhammad, and the Qur'an and Hadiths prove this to be true!

 

[Spiderman]

@KT Shamim
You are acting like there is some way to minimize pure hatred, bigotry, gruesome, brutal, sadistic torture, mutilation, crucifixion, burning, and barbaric torture of human beings!

I'm telling you, there is no way to explain that stuff away. It can't be justified under any circumstances!

That would be like Donald Trump saying, "Hillary Clinton deserves to have her hands and feet cut off and doused with boiling water and her flesh torn with hooks"...oh but, what I really mean is x, y, and z!

Don't you get it! You are fighting a losing uphill battle! There is no excuse for such madness. How can you still stick to your claim that the Qur'an is without error?

Your words of peace are only making it look like the author of the Qur'an is an unstable person with mental problems, who speaks the epitome of hatred and torture in some verses while saying words of peace elsewhere. It is total madness!