Why Bahai

[Moz]

I did not think this thread was a trash truck approach for those with with a hostile agenda to trash the Baha'i Faith, but . . . sigh, that is what we have.

H

Take your time @Moz
Look forward to your response
Kind Regards
Adrian

Hi.
I'm still reading some stuff but i'd like to ask you some baseline questions so i am not posting reams of stuff you already know.
Are you familiar with the work of Orientalist Historians like Patricia Crone, Tom Holland and Dan Gibson on the early Islamic history. If you are not there is a bbc documentary, they could only screen it once, called "Islam the Untold Story" that says a lot of this out in as non confrontational manner as it can. It's on utuube.

I appreciate the stuff from last night but it did not really give me an idea of what aspect of Islam is part of the progression of revelation. I have been led to believe it has something to do with governmental structure and nationhood, if this is the case then i'll organise my thoughts as leading to the treaty of Westphalia and take a more geo political approach..
If its contradictions ... i'll probably start with a comparison of the christian and Islamic view on whether Jesus was crucified or not as they are at the heart of that issue.
If it's peace then i will contrast the real world events of both religions to see where the real message of peace lies.
Sorry to be such a pain but i am aware that this is probably not strictly to the spirit of the thread so i'd like to be as concise as possible, i don't want to annoy too many others posting around us.

Peace.

 

[shunyadragon]

If all we knew about the Baha'i Faith was from the responses by the Baha'is here on the forum, what would we think of their religion? Would we see peace and unity? Love and respect for all people no matter what their religion? I vaguely remember a Baha'i quote so I'll paraphrase it, it might have been from Abdul Baha', if a person has 10 good qualities and 1 bad one, disregard the 1 bad one. And, if a person has 10 bad qualities and only 1 good one, to disregard the 10 bad ones and focus on the 1 good quality.

Does this happen? Not even. I was there with the Baha'is over 40 years ago. I saw people join, then get disillusioned when they saw the inner workings. It's going to happen in an organized-type of religion. They have an image to protect. They have to be careful how the Baha'i Faith is presented. I would not be surprised if the administration people in the Baha'i Faith put out directives for those that want to post on internet forums... that along with being accurate about what the Baha'i Faith teaches, that Baha'is need to show a little love and respect.

Too many Baha'is are not looking at the good in all of us non-Baha'is, but looking at the bad... but then making us out to be enemies of their religion? Where is the peace and unity? How will the Baha'is unite the whole world if they can't even get along with us? Anyway, I'm sure I'll be attacked for this post. But, at least I'll be in good company. I always love to hear what you and Old Badger have to say.

You are committing quite a few fallacious errors in this response, above all equating the weaknesses of fallible nature of humans with the validity of a religion. By your measure all possibly belief systems, and personal beliefs are false.

Actually if you read my first post I started a civil even reasonable approach to a dialogue, but quickly went down hill on the part of the detractors against the Baha'i Faith.

No one is innocent, but you are offering an extremely one sided approach to this.

I am the Irishman and yes I will go for the throat against trash truck arguments, but @Tony Bristow-Stagg has been among the more civil on either side.

 

[Dawnofhope]

If all we knew about the Baha'i Faith was from the responses by the Baha'is here on the forum, what would we think of their religion? Would we see peace and unity? Love and respect for all people no matter what their religion? I vaguely remember a Baha'i quote so I'll paraphrase it, it might have been from Abdul Baha', if a person has 10 good qualities and 1 bad one, disregard the 1 bad one. And, if a person has 10 bad qualities and only 1 good one, to disregard the 10 bad ones and focus on the 1 good quality.

Its always best to keep Abdu’l-Bahá in our thoughts and his example of love and compassion to all. He wasn’t a push over either and would often advocate for what was just and fair.

Does this happen? Not even. I was there with the Baha'is over 40 years ago. I saw people join, then get disillusioned when they saw the inner workings. It's going to happen in an organized-type of religion. They have an image to protect. They have to be careful how the Baha'i Faith is presented. I would not be surprised if the administration people in the Baha'i Faith put out directives for those that want to post on internet forums... that along with being accurate about what the Baha'i Faith teaches, that Baha'is need to show a little love and respect.

Baha’is are humans along with everyone else. We’re imperfect with much to learn.

Too many Baha'is are not looking at the good in all of us non-Baha'is, but looking at the bad... but then making us out to be enemies of their religion? Where is the peace and unity? How will the Baha'is unite the whole world if they can't even get along with us? Anyway, I'm sure I'll be attacked for this post. But, at least I'll be in good company. I always love to hear what you and Old Badger have to say.

Relationships are two way streets are they not? If one side starts criticising and fault finding then its usually not helpful.

RF is an interesting space where we come together to discuss and debate religion. There’s always going to be some tensions and friction. A thread is started asking about the Baha’i Faith. The Baha’is are always happy to offer their perspectives and critics of the Baha’i Faith are equally eager to share their views.

Abdu’l-Bahá also said love your enemies and see them as friends. Is that an easy thing? Not always, no.

What I have observed is after several years on this forum the Baha’is and their critics are still talking to each other and for the most part keeping it civil. This thread has been one of the messier ones I’ve seen in a while. Hopefully its valuable learning for us all.

Thanks for your post and I always value your perspectives and feedback.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Why any religion other than self satisfaction, self peacefulness? None of them are science or represent science.
IMO if there is no deity(there is no evidence for any yet), each is equal in falseness and myth.

IMHO, closest to science is 'Advaita' Hinduism with its philosophy of 'non-duality'. Everything in the universe, living and non-living, arose from the same small bundle of physical energy. That alone is in play today and will be so in future also. Therefore, no God, no soul, no heaven, no hell, no birth, no death, no creation, no end of time, no rebirth, no resurrection. No prophets, no sons, no messengers, no manifestations, no mahdis. All clap-trap surgically removed. Buddhism also is close.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Baha'u'llah has said about internal issues;

Again, what Bahaullah said and long quotes from what all 'word salad' he offered. Who is interested in reading that? What he said was that there is One God, and he is a manifestation of that God, with none other to come before a thousand years, and that he brings the latest message from that One God, which replaces what all the earlier or later prophets/sons/messengers/manifestations/mahdis have said. As for proof his vision, he offered the vision of the 'Maid of Heaven' who visited him in prison.

And a few people believe that! No miracles, no seeing of the hind part of that One God, no raising of the dead, no turning blind or lepers into health, no feeding of the multitude with one loaf of bread, no walking on water, no visit to heaven on a white beast (Burraq) and meeting the prophets there, as others did. Though he claimed to be able to do that (but never did anything of the sort).

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Again, what Bahaullah said and long quotes from what all 'word salad' he offered. Who is interested in reading that? What he said was that there is One God, and he is a manifestation of that God in the world, with none to come before a thousand years, and that he brings the latest message from that One God, which replaces what all the earlier prophets/sons/messengers/mahdis have said. As for proof, his vision of the 'Maid of Heaven' who visited him in prison.

And a few people believe that! No miracles, no seeing of the hind part of that One God, no raising of the dead, no turning blind or lepers into health, no feeding of the multitude with one loaf of bread, no walking on water, no visit to heaven on a white beast (Burraq) and meeting the prophets there, as others did. Though he claimed to be able to do that (but never did anything of the sort).

I was interested, I read it and I guess the one who asked the questions, will be interested, if they really wanted an answer to their questions.

I guess @CG Didymus would consider what was posted, as much time and thought was put into the replies.

I think it quite Funny that those that believe in science keep wanting miraculous events as proof.

Stay happy

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

No the relationship needs to be first person to pass muster for comparison between Paul and Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l baha and Shoghi Effendi. It is previous some that the claim the relationship, between Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l baha and Shoghi Effendi for the writings of Abdu'l baha and Shoghi Effendi to reflect the will of Baha'u'llah concerning the Progressive Revelation of the Manifestations of God.

And how does Paul not pass the muster? Allah gave him the vision of Jesus. Can Allah not do that? Is your proof for Abdul Baha or Shoghi Effendi reflecting the will of Bahaullah any stronger? Tell me in what way, starting with why we should consider what Bahaullah said to be the message from Allah?

 

[dfnj]

The Bahai faith is quite unfamiliar to me. If anyone could enlighten me why I should follow this stream of thought I will be truly grateful.

Mind you I started reading about the Bahai faith only recently so I am a novice. And the question is because I see many from the faith in this forum and not having the knowledge is not too good. I dont know if this post is valid.

It's like every other faith. But if you really want answer stop looking outside of yourself. The answers you seek are within. Absolute authority comes from within. If you see the Buddha on the road kill him!

 

[Dawnofhope]

Hi.
I'm still reading some stuff but i'd like to ask you some baseline questions so i am not posting reams of stuff you already know.
Are you familiar with the work of Orientalist Historians like Patricia Crone, Tom Holland and Dan Gibson on the early Islamic history. If you are not there is a bbc documentary, they could only screen it once, called "Islam the Untold Story" that says a lot of this out in as non confrontational manner as it can. It's on utuube.

The material I posted was simply a suggested starting point.

I have read about these historians as opposed to reading their primary works.

Perhaps the most important starting point for an interfaith conversation is a willingness to share and learn from each other. Having a respectful, reasoned and courteous discussion is best. I’m not interested in denigrating others beliefs let alone descending into personal attacks.

The next consideration are the rules of the forum. Ideas expressed should as much as possible be in our own words. Including quotes from others are fine but limit it to no more than two paragraphs. Do provide references but we shouldn’t be expecting each other to spend too long reading that material.

Getting each other to read a book or watch a movie is unrealistic.

I appreciate the stuff from last night but it did not really give me an idea of what aspect of Islam is part of the progression of revelation. I have been led to believe it has something to do with governmental structure and nationhood, if this is the case then i'll organise my thoughts as leading to the treaty of Westphalia and take a more geo political approach..

Looking at Muhammad and what He did and said seemed like a useful starting point. The concept of Progressive Revelation shouldn’t be too hard to grasp. If you believe God Revealed Himself or made Himself or His Will known through both Moses and Christ then we have an excellent example of Progressive Revelation. What Christ Taught was founded on the Hebrew Bible.

Muhammad built on the Teachings of Moses and Christ to bring a New Revelation as recorded in the Quran. An important consideration are their respective audiences. While Jesus taught an almost exclusively Jewish audience whose ancestors had lived under the shadow of Mosaic Teachings for nearly 1,500 years, Muhammad’s followers had been uneducated pagans and in some respects barbaric. So when his own tribesmen, the Quraysh, relentlessly made efforts to eradicate the Muslims, it was because Muhammad taught them to be like the Jews and Christians and worship the One True God. To then defend Himself and eventually defeat His adversaries and unite the tribes of the Arabian Peninsula was an astounding accomplishment.

The Medina Constitution was a groundbreaking document for its time.

Constitution of Medina - Wikipedia

There would be further developments in regards governance of larger groups of people through the Caliphate and the explosion of knowledge through the Islamic Golden Age. This in turn was a major factor in igniting the European Renaissance.

While enormous development in the governance of state, nation and empire took place within Islam, it was through the European Renaissance and beyond the specific concept of the nation state was established.

Nation state - Wikipedia

I’m not aware of any Baha’i writings that specifically attributes the establishment of the nation state to Islam. In regards Progressive Revelation from a Baha’i perspective these two links might be helpful.

Progressive revelation (Bahá'í) - Wikipedia

Revelation | What Bahá’ís Believe

If its contradictions ... i'll probably start with a comparison of the christian and Islamic view on whether Jesus was crucified or not as they are at the heart of that issue.

Jesus was crucified. The following two verses are taken by Muslims to indicate He was not.

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
May, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

— Qur'an, sura 4 (An-Nisa) ayat157–158[2]

Islamic views on Jesus' death - Wikipedia

Baha’is view these verses are akin to they killed him but they didn’t kill his spirit. Obviously Muslims and Baha’is disagree about interpretation.

If it's peace then I will contrast the real world events of both religions to see where the real message of peace lies.

We need to be careful not to dismiss Islam on the basis of bad behaviour of its followers anymore than we should dismiss Christianity for the same reasons.

Sorry to be such a pain but i am aware that this is probably not strictly to the spirit of the thread so i'd like to be as concise as possible, i don't want to annoy too many others posting around us.

The critics on this thread are much more interested in discrediting the Baha’i Faith than Islam and Christianity. It shouldn’t be a problem,

 

[firedragon]

Why any religion other than self satisfaction, self peacefulness? None of them are science or represent science.
IMO if there is no deity(there is no evidence for any yet), each is equal in falseness and myth.

Lol. I am not looking to join a faith. I am trying to learn about it brother.

 

[firedragon]

I like most al threads started by Baha'is and most threads about the Baha'i Faith. I have my disagreements with some of the things they say. And I'm part of a group of people here at the forum that usually questions some of those things they believe. I do think heir basic tenets are great. The oneness of humanity and such. It's just some of their beliefs and explanations of other religions that I have a problem with. So, I was wondering, what have you learned so far? Is everything falling into place and making sense?

I have a few things to say brother. But not in this thread because I honestly didnt know much about the Bahai faith. I have learned through the years that one could read the scripture and books to understand something but there is nothing like human interaction to get the human feel of things. If not trust me from the time I began this thread I have already bought a few books by Bahai's. I already have their Kithab I akdhas or the Holy book, in the original arabic and in English for reference, plus respectable Effendi's writings among others. But I do not wish to offend anyone in this thread so I shall not reflect upon my reservations. The Bahai faith to me now is more of a philosophy that builds a faith based on gathering the whole of humanity under one banner. It is not an Islamic or Christian faith. In fact, it is not a denomination of any faith. It is the culmination or/and continuation of all faiths. All of these faiths have the same origin, more like the perennial philosophy but were misguided and 'corrupted' through time as people are like that. So the Bahai faith is here to anoint all and unite under one banner of a theology. I have changed my understanding now to know that Bab and Bahauallah are incarnations of God himself as per their theology and all of those faiths that believed in a future saviour kind of eschatology were all referring to Bahaullah one way or another. Just that their definitions and understandings of the figure differed but in fact they were all referring to the same person. Maithree of the Buddha included.

This is what I understand and what has been communicated here. Agree or not, I am trying to understand it.

Peace.

 

[firedragon]

H

Hi.
I'm still reading some stuff but i'd like to ask you some baseline questions so i am not posting reams of stuff you already know.
Are you familiar with the work of Orientalist Historians like Patricia Crone, Tom Holland and Dan Gibson on the early Islamic history. If you are not there is a bbc documentary, they could only screen it once, called "Islam the Untold Story" that says a lot of this out in as non confrontational manner as it can. It's on utuube.

I appreciate the stuff from last night but it did not really give me an idea of what aspect of Islam is part of the progression of revelation. I have been led to believe it has something to do with governmental structure and nationhood, if this is the case then i'll organise my thoughts as leading to the treaty of Westphalia and take a more geo political approach..
If its contradictions ... i'll probably start with a comparison of the christian and Islamic view on whether Jesus was crucified or not as they are at the heart of that issue.
If it's peace then i will contrast the real world events of both religions to see where the real message of peace lies.
Sorry to be such a pain but i am aware that this is probably not strictly to the spirit of the thread so i'd like to be as concise as possible, i don't want to annoy too many others posting around us.

Peace.

Have you studied these theories (e.g. Dan Gibson)?

 

[Aupmanyav]

I think it quite Funny that those that believe in science keep wanting miraculous events as proof.

No, we know miracles are fake news, serpent oil blurbs; like the 'Maid of Heaven' visiting Bahaullah in prison. It is the theists who believe in that.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No, we know miracles are fake news, con jobs. It is the theists who believe in that.

I see the greatest miracle is a change of heart.

Regards Tony

 

[Moz]

Have you studied these theories (e.g. Dan Gibson)?

Hi
I have watched and read his stuff as well as other people who refer to his stuff. I found In the shadow of the sword by Tom Holland a pretty credibly researched book. The idea that the nabateans had more to do with the foundational story of Islam than they are given credit for in the islamic tradition seems to have some weight.
Gibsons research on the earliest mosques and the direction of prayer also seem sound.

Peace

 

[Aupmanyav]

I see the greatest miracle is a change of heart.

The greatest change of heart will be to abandon insistence on your version of God, any message is has been supposed to come from him, your prophet/son/messenger/manifestation/mahdi/avatara; and seek answers in science.

 

[firedragon]

Hi
I have watched and read his stuff as well as other people who refer to his stuff. I found In the shadow of the sword by Tom Holland a pretty credibly researched book. The idea that the nabateans had more to do with the foundational story of Islam than they are given credit for in the islamic tradition seems to have some weight.
Gibsons research on the earliest mosques and the direction of prayer also seem sound.

Peace

I do not wish to have a dialogue about this. Not here anyway. And your statement here is very vague to be frank.

But let me tell you something brother. Do not put Professor Crone, Tom Holland and Dan Gibson in the same sentence as if they are all the same. Just because she appears in a documentary as an interviewee. There are some truths to their historic prepositions. Some lack of evidence. But the journeys take very different paths and agendas.

I dont understand how this is relevant to the topic anyway.

 

[Moz]

I do not wish to have a dialogue about this. Not here anyway. And your statement here is very vague to be frank.

But let me tell you something brother. Do not put Professor Crone, Tom Holland and Dan Gibson in the same sentence as if they are all the same. Just because she appears in a documentary as an interviewee. There are some truths to their historic prepositions. Some lack of evidence. But the journeys take very different paths and agendas.

I dont understand how this is relevant to the topic anyway.

Hi.
I am sorry if you thought i was saying that they formed a chain of thought. I read all sorts of stuff and know that they are not all saying the same thing. But each is quiet compelling in their views.

Lack of evidence... well that will never change now. When this stuff first broke in the late 70's the Saudies began concreting over any possible archaeological site that might may prove or dis prove the foundation stories.
The relevance i thought was in the Bahai's tying themselves to, or vaguely endorsing somehow the muslim message. I still can not quiet pin down why they would claim muhummad a true prophet.
Peace

 

[firedragon]

Hi.
I am sorry if you thought i was saying that they formed a chain of thought. I read all sorts of stuff and know that they are not all saying the same thing. But each is quiet compelling in their views.

Lack of evidence... well that will never change now. When this stuff first broke in the late 70's the Saudies began concreting over any possible archaeological site that might may prove or dis prove the foundation stories.
The relevance i thought was in the Bahai's tying themselves to, or vaguely endorsing somehow the muslim message. I still can not quiet pin down why they would claim muhummad a true prophet.
Peace

They also claim jesus too. What do you have to say about that brother?

 

[Dawnofhope]

I have a few things to say brother. But not in this thread because I honestly didnt know much about the Bahai faith. I have learned through the years that one could read the scripture and books to understand something but there is nothing like human interaction to get the human feel of things. If not trust me from the time I began this thread I have already bought a few books by Bahai's. I already have their Kithab I akdhas or the Holy book, in the original arabic and in English for reference, plus respectable Effendi's writings among others. But I do not wish to offend anyone in this thread so I shall not reflect upon my reservations. The Bahai faith to me now is more of a philosophy that builds a faith based on gathering the whole of humanity under one banner. It is not an Islamic or Christian faith. In fact, it is not a denomination of any faith. It is the culmination or/and continuation of all faiths. All of these faiths have the same origin, more like the perennial philosophy but were misguided and 'corrupted' through time as people are like that. So the Bahai faith is here to anoint all and unite under one banner of a theology. I have changed my understanding now to know that Bab and Bahauallah are incarnations of God himself as per their theology and all of those faiths that believed in a future saviour kind of eschatology were all referring to Bahaullah one way or another. Just that their definitions and understandings of the figure differed but in fact they were all referring to the same person. Maithree of the Buddha included.

This is what I understand and what has been communicated here. Agree or not, I am trying to understand it.

Peace.

Hi @firedragon
You are unlikely to offend the Baha’is. I hope you don’t mind me offering a couple of corrections to your view of what the Baha’i Faith is and teaches.

1/ Baha’is don’t believe the Bab or Bahá’u’lláh to be literally God. You may not have meant that with the term incarnation of God which does have some ambiguity after all.

The belief Baha’is see Bahá’u’lláh as being God Himself appears a common misconception amongst Muslims.

This link to an excerpt from Bahá’u’lláh and the new era checked by Abdu’l-Baha explains the dual station of the Manifestation of God.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 41-46

2/ The Baha’is see their faith as an independent religion, not a philosophy. You may of course completely disagree but that’s how we see our faith. Its usually recognised as such amongst students of comparative religion.

The Faith of Baha'u'llah: A World Religion