Why are men expected to take care of their children?

[PureX]

This has nothing to do with my OP. The woman can do what she wants.

She can choose not to sacrifice her body to the task of gestating a child. Otherwise she is exactly as responsible for the creation of a child as you are. More-so, as she will end up being the one that has to raise the child when you refuse to do so. So I really can't see what you're complaining about. You don't have to carry the child inside you, or physically raise it once it's born. All you have to do is help pay for the expense of raising it. So what are you whining about? You're getting out of your responsibility for creating the child, easy, compared to the woman you created it with.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

But the man IS required to support the child the rest of his life at least where I live.

You're not quite understanding my argument, here. Men aren't expected to support the child anywhere near the same degree as women are. Again, at the absolute bare minimum a man is expected to financially support the child and mother. That's it. By comparison, at the absolute bare minimum, the mother is expected to carry that baby - with all accompanying health, personal and financial impacts that entails - and then continue to raise that child from birth to adulthood, supporting both personally and financially for as long as she lives.

The social expectations are nowhere near comparable. What you're complaining about here is like complaining that fathers are expected to do something that requires not even the slightest fraction of comparable effort of what the mother puts in.

My question is why does the mother get this choice but not the father?

Because the impact on them is greater, obviously. If they choose to carry the baby to term, they are choosing to take on a significant amount more responsibility (as well as a significant amount more stress, both financially and physically) than a father (at least, at the bare minimum) is expected to.

Think of it this way. If a woman has a child and the father chooses not to support it financially, how does society feel towards that father? Like you said, they're often ostracised and called a deadbeat dad. But, for the most part, society just looks down on them a little. What if a mother decides to completely abandon their baby and not support it in any way (say, leaving the father to raise it)? Do you think that society would be just a little more harsh on that woman than they would that man, despite the fact that they're both doing more or less the same thing?

Being a deadbeat dad is seen as being bad. Being a mother who abandons their baby is seen as being an absolute, irredeemable monster.

They both have a burden to support the child but only the mother has an option to not support the child.

You keep ignoring the DEGREE of support that is expected. You can't equate these things. They're not the same expectations.

They have the same reasons for not wanting to take care of the child.

Irrelevant. The mother makes the decision because the majority of the burden is on them, regardless of the father's role in bringing up the child.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

She can choose not to sacrifice her body to the task of gestating a child. Otherwise she is exactly as responsible for the creation of a child as you are. More-so, as she will end up being the one that has to raise the child when you refuse to do so. So I really can't see what you're complaining about. You don't have to carry the child inside you, or physically raise it once it's born. All you have to do is help pay for the expense of raising it. So what are you whining about? You're getting out of your responsibility for creating the child, easy, compared to the woman you created it with.

I am not doing anything. I have said many times now that I think the father and mother have a moral and ethical responsibility to care for the child once the mother becomes pregnant.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

You're not quite understanding my argument, here. Men aren't expected to support the child anywhere near the same degree as women are. Again, at the absolute bare minimum a man is expected to financially support the child and mother. That's it. By comparison, at the absolute bare minimum, the mother is expected to carry that baby - with all accompanying health, personal and financial impacts that entails - and then continue to raise that child from birth to adulthood, supporting both personally and financially for as long as she lives.

The social expectations are nowhere near comparable. What you're complaining about here is like complaining that fathers are expected to do something that requires not even the slightest fraction of comparable effort of what the mother puts in.

I am not complaining. I just asked a question. I think the mother and father have a moral and ethical obligation to take care of the child once the mother is pregnant.

Because the impact on them is greater, obviously. If they choose to carry the baby to term, they are choosing to take on a significant amount more responsibility (as well as a significant amount more stress, both financially and physically) than a father (at least, at the bare minimum) is expected to.

Ok thanks.

Think of it this way. If a woman has a child and the father chooses not to support it financially, how does society feel towards that father? Like you said, they're often ostracised and called a deadbeat dad. But, for the most part, society just looks down on them a little. What if a mother decides to completely abandon their baby and not support it in any way (say, leaving the father to raise it)? Do you think that society would be just a little more harsh on that woman than they would that man, despite the fact that they're both doing more or less the same thing?

Where I live deadbeat dads are thought of as worse than the mother abandoning the child.

being a deadbeat dad is seen as being bad. Being a mother who abandons their baby is seen as being an absolute, irredeemable monster.

Not where I live.

Irrelevant. The mother makes the decision because the majority of the burden is on them, regardless of the father's role in bringing up the child.

That is not how we decide responsibility in our society on most other things. Why in this situation?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

My question has nothing to do with bodily autonomy.

Baloney.

The woman can do what she wants.

But she can't. Like I said, she can't compel her partner to get or not get a vasectomy. The partner can't compel her to get or not get an abortion.

Aside from that, their rights and obligations are the same: if they end up with a baby, both are obliged to care for it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I am not complaining. I just asked a question. I think the mother and father have a moral and ethical obligation to take care of the child once the mother is pregnant.

You would deny a pregnant woman the sort of bodily security we even grant to a corpse and you have the nerve to talk about ethical obligations? Give your head a shake.

 

[PureX]

I have said many times now that I think the father and mother have a moral and ethical responsibility to care for the child once the mother becomes pregnant.

Yes, but you don't seem to be able to grasp the fact that as a result of both biology and culture the woman ends up taking on a great deal more of that responsibility than the man. And therefore she is being afforded a greater share of the decision-making involved in fulfilling the process.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I am not complaining. I just asked a question. I think the mother and father have a moral and ethical obligation to take care of the child once the mother is pregnant.

Right. The point I'm making is that the expectation of what that obligation means tends to be very different regarding the mother and father. You're alleging that there's some kind of double standard, but you not taking into account the different standards that already exist. The double standard is very, very explicitly against women, so them having the option to terminate a pregnancy if they wish to is just an example of curtailing that double-standard and making the situation MORE fair to women, not LESS fair to men.

Where I live deadbeat dads are thought of as worse than the mother abandoning the child.

I very much doubt that's true. In popular media, for example, deadbeat dads are kind of a sitcom-y joke. They're not treated anywhere near the same. Society objectively thinks far, far less of a mother who doesn't want to put in the effort to raise a child than they do of a father who doesn't want to raise a child.

Not where I live.

Again, I doubt that. I'm willing to bet that "where you live" has a significantly higher number of deadbeat dads than abandoning mothers.

That is not how we decide responsibility in our society on most other things.

Actually, yes it is. It's fairly normal for the person who is taking on the most responsibility in a given situation to make decisions regarding it. That's actually the whole foundational basis of the concept of responsibility.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Baloney.


But she can't. Like I said, she can't compel her partner to get or not get a vasectomy. The partner can't compel her to get or not get an abortion.

Aside from that, their rights and obligations are the same: if they end up with a baby, both are obliged to care for it.

I never said anything about vasectomies or abortions. You want to make my question about something it is not.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

You would deny a pregnant woman the sort of bodily security we even grant to a corpse and you have the nerve to talk about ethical obligations? Give your head a shake.

I give woman all the bodily autonomy she wants. I just don't think she can use her bodily autonomy to kill a human life.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Yes, but you don't seem to be able to grasp the fact that as a result of both biology and culture the woman ends up taking on a great deal more of that responsibility than the man. And therefore she is being afforded a greater share of the decision-making involved in fulfilling the process.

Ok

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Right. The point I'm making is that the expectation of what that obligation means tends to be very different regarding the mother and father. You're alleging that there's some kind of double standard, but you not taking into account the different standards that already exist. The double standard is very, very explicitly against women, so them having the option to terminate a pregnancy if they wish to is just an example of curtailing that double-standard and making the situation MORE fair to women, not LESS fair to men.


I very much doubt that's true. In popular media, for example, deadbeat dads are kind of a sitcom-y joke. They're not treated anywhere near the same. Society objectively thinks far, far less of a mother who doesn't want to put in the effort to raise a child than they do of a father who doesn't want to raise a child.

In conservative circles dads are expected to take care of their children, we hate the depiction of dads in sitcoms and such as deadbeats or idiots.

Again, I doubt that. I'm willing to bet that "where you live" has a significantly higher number of deadbeat dads than abandoning mothers.

I am sure that is true.

Actually, yes it is. It's fairly normal for the person who is taking on the most responsibility in a given situation to make decisions regarding it. That's actually the whole foundational basis of the concept of responsibility.

Ok, thanks for your response.

 

[bobhikes]

Why does she have an extra option and the father does not after pregnancy?

It's her body and her risk for the next 9 to 10 months and then up to a year more if she has to breast feed.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

It's her body and her risk for the next 9 to 10 months and then up to a year more if she has to breast feed.

That does not answer my question. My question is not about the mothers choices but about the fathers choices.

 

[crossfire]

I am not sure if we agree or not. In any situation I do not think the father should be able to tell the woman she must have the child so he can support it. It is true I am against abortion but if the father can tell the mother she has to have the baby that can lead to abuse or retaliation etc.

Why does the oqman have the option to abort when you say she has a bunch of options not to get pregnant in the first place?

Look at the answer you gave about abuse or retaliation when the father says the woman must continue the pregnancy. When the state outlaws abortion, the old fashioned method would be for the father to beat the mother until she miscarries, then she could get treated for miscarriage. With the stringent laws some states have been enacting, treatment for miscarriage is even being denied until the woman gets so sick that it becomes an emergency situation. Either way, when State law trumps medical choice, pregnant women suffer. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. This is why the choice of managing a pregnancy rightfully belongs to the woman and her doctor, and really needs to be respected without coersion.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Look at the answer you gave about abuse or retaliation when the father says the woman must continue the pregnancy. When the state outlaws abortion, the old fashioned method would be for the father to beat the mother until she miscarries, then she could get treated for miscarriage. With the stringent laws some states have been enacting, treatment for miscarriage is even being denied until the woman gets so sick that it becomes an emergency situation. Either way, when State law trumps medical choice, pregnant women suffer. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. This is why the choice of managing a pregnancy rightfully belongs to the woman and her doctor, and really needs to be respected without coersion.

I never mention anything about violence. I was thinking more of I will make you carry the baby out of spite. I also think managing a pregnancy belongs to the woman. I never said anything different.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

In conservative circles dads are expected to take care of their children, we hate the depiction of dads in sitcoms and such as deadbeats or idiots.

And in conservative circles, women are expected to be far, far more than just a person who "takes care" of their children. Again, I very much doubt conservative society looks the same on men who abandon their children as women who abandon their children. In "conservative circles", the idea of a woman being little more than a devoted mother, whose very existence is predicated on the care, treatment and around-the-clock service of their child, is virtually unfathomable. While men may be expected to care for their children, the extent of that care - and the degree to which a dereliction of that care reflects negatively on them - is significantly different for men than it is for women.

 

[PureX]

That does not answer my question. My question is not about the mothers choices but about the fathers choices.

The man doesn't get to a choice about what happens to and inside the woman's body. Nor if she is going to raise the child alone or not when he chooses not to take on that responsibity. Why do you think he should?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

And in conservative circles, women are expected to be far, far more than just a person who "takes care" of their children. Again, I very much doubt conservative society looks the same on men who abandon their children as women who abandon their children. In "conservative circles", the idea of a woman being little more than a devoted mother, whose very existence is predicated on the care, treatment and around-the-clock service of their child, is virtually unfathomable. While men may be expected to care for their children, the extent of that care - and the degree to which a dereliction of that care reflects negatively on them - is significantly different for men than it is for women.

This is untrue for many conservatives. Seems like you are talking about stereotypes of religious conservatives for the most part.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

The man doesn't get to a choice about what happens to and inside the woman's body. Nor if she is going to raise the child alone or not when he chooses not to take on that responsibity. Why do you think he should?

The father should have a legal say in taking care of the child. Right? It is his child too. I am not saying that men get to tell women to have an abortion. I am saying that some men and women think the mother should not be able to kill the human life inside her.