"Who really cares about the Palestinians"?

[Flankerl]

Says you i am pretty sure the Palestinians civilians who lived in village's have something else to say about that. The same question can be asked where is the proof that 6 million Jews died.

Apart from a *edit* of documents, photos and videos? Nothing.

You got me there.

 

[Shermana]

Everyone is bigoted in his own special way....Jews against Palestinians & vice versa....Xians against Muslims & vice versa....Chinese against
Japanese & vice versa....Revoltingistan against everyone & vice versa.....etc, etc, etc. Ain't no group without sin, but the reasons behind the
sin aren't purely religious or racial, even when one side desperately clamors for this particular victimhood. The West also applies lower behavior
standards in other areas of the world, eg, Africa, Asia. But higher standards, just as with Israel, are expected of Japanistan, Norwaystan,
Canuckistan etc, where several other religions (or lack thereof) predominate. This happens independently of religion, even when religion can
be a factor.
if anything, it would be the opposite of anti-semitism to expect more of Jews & hold them to a higher standard than their Muslim counterparts.

If this "higher standard" means expecting Jews to hand over the land and stop engaging in security precautions under lofty expectations that the other side will play ball on peaceful terms, it's not the opposite of anti-semitism, it's a thinly veiled mask for wanting the Jews to have to play by special suicidal rules. So what exactly is Israel being expected to do?

 

[Revoltingest]

If this "higher standard" means expecting Jews to hand over the land and stop engaging in security precautions under lofty expectations that the other side will play ball on peaceful terms, it's not the opposite of anti-semitism, it's a thinly veiled mask for wanting the Jews to have to play by special suicidal rules. So what exactly is Israel being expected to do?

Those specific expectations should not be inferred from my post.
Different people have different expectations of Israel, so I can't speak for them.
While I recommend against it, I expect Israel to pursue security thru oppression & war.
Thus, Israel's enemies will grow in number & desperation.....a recipe for continued strife.

 

[Alceste]

If this "higher standard" means expecting Jews to hand over the land and stop engaging in security precautions under lofty expectations that the other side will play ball on peaceful terms, it's not the opposite of anti-semitism, it's a thinly veiled mask for wanting the Jews to have to play by special suicidal rules. So what exactly is Israel being expected to do?

Sit down with the Palestinians like grown-ups and hash out the boundaries of your two separate states, and give settlers the option to either return to Israel with compensation for resettlement or remain in Palestine under the rule of Palestinians.

Above all, stop killing Palestinians, bulldozing and bombing their houses and infrastructure, and sabotaging their economic progress.

 

[Shermana]

Those specific expectations should not be inferred from my post.
Different people have different expectations of Israel, so I can't speak for them.
While I recommend against it, I expect Israel to pursue security thru oppression & war.

Sometimes oppression and war is the only way to stay alive when any show of willingness for peace, like offering Gaza, is taken for nothing but weakness.

If Gaza isn't a good indicator of what good will come by playing nice without a stern requirement for the other side, what is?

 

[Revoltingest]

Sometimes oppression and war is the only way to stay alive when any show of willingness for peace, like offering Gaza, is taken for nothing but weakness.
If Gaza isn't a good indicator of what good will come by playing nice without a stern requirement for the other side, what is?

That approach hasn't worked yet.
Do you expect things to turn around by doing the same thing again & again?

 

[Shermana]

Sit down with the Palestinians like grown-ups and hash out the boundaries of your two separate states, and give settlers the option to either return to Israel with compensation for resettlement or remain in Palestine under the rule of Palestinians.

Above all, stop killing Palestinians, bulldozing and bombing their houses and infrastructure, and sabotaging their economic progress.

They've been trying to sit down like grown ups for decades, the Palestinians have rejected every peace deal, even the more generous ones, I could make a whole thread about the history of the peace negotiations.

The Palestinians have flat out said they will not allow any Jews in Palestine, so is that okay?

Should only Israel be required to stop killing Palestinians or should Palestinians be required to rein in their snipers, stone throwers, and rocket launchers? Is Israel not supposed to fire back at militants?

As for sabotaging economic progress, Gaza was quite prosperous under Israeli rule, before Israel pulled out. The PA is among the top most corrupt governing organizations on Earth, and many Palestinians for that reason WANT to live under Israeli rule. It seems they do a fine job sabotaging their own progress when left to their own devices, and that's just the facts.

 

[Shermana]

That approach hasn't worked yet.
Do you expect things to turn around by doing the same thing again & again?

Actually I do think that the only language they seem to understand is force and display of strength and that Israel's restraint is in fact seen as weakness and nothing but (Israel's force is nothing compared to what they are capable of), so if anything Israel might turn the situation around by not walking on eggshells or restraining their hand and using their full might next time.

Explain your take on what happened when Gaza was handed over.

 

[Revoltingest]

Actually I do think that the only language they seem to understand is force....

I'm sure many of them feel the same way.
So if you keep using force against each other, how will the result change?

....and display of strength and that Israel's restraint is in fact seen as weakness and nothing but (Israel's force is nothing compared to what they are capable of), so if anything Israel might turn the situation around by not walking on eggshells or restraining their hand and using their full might next time.

Do you think the rest of the Islamic world would stand idly by if Israel becomes even more oppressive? Sure, Israel could prevail in a war with Iran,
Pakistan & who knows what other countries when backed by the US. But the possibility of involving WW3 looms with your strategy. And US support
could wane because of costs (dollars & deaths) imposed by Israel.

Explain your take on what happened when Gaza was handed over.

No, I'm not going into detailed history, which looks to be a quagmire.

 

[Alceste]

They've been trying to sit down like grown ups for decades, the Palestinians have rejected every peace deal, even the more generous ones, I could make a whole thread about the history of the peace negotiations.

The Palestinians have flat out said they will not allow any Jews in Palestine, so is that okay?

Should only Israel be required to stop killing Palestinians or should Palestinians be required to rein in their snipers, stone throwers, and rocket launchers? Is Israel not supposed to fire back at militants?

As for sabotaging economic progress, Gaza was quite prosperous under Israeli rule, before Israel pulled out. The PA is among the top most corrupt governing organizations on Earth, and many Palestinians for that reason WANT to live under Israeli rule. It seems they do a fine job sabotaging their own progress when left to their own devices, and that's just the facts.

Both of you should stop killing each other and work out a peace deal like grown-ups.

Blaming your opponent for causing and perpetuating a bloody two-way conflict is childish.

 

[Alceste]

Actually I do think that the only language they seem to understand is force and display of strength ...

That kind of talk makes you look like a racist.

 

[Shermana]

Both of you should stop killing each other and work out a peace deal like grown-ups.

Blaming your opponent for causing and perpetuating a bloody two-way conflict is childish.

Let me repeat:

Israel has offered on numerous occasions to work out a peace deal like grown ups.

The Palestinians have refused each time.

They blame Israel's existence as the reason for perpetuating the "two way conflict".

So at what point are you going to blame both sides when one side has repeatedly offered the olive branch at generous terms and the other side has rejected it repeatedly.

You can pretend they're equally at fault and try to play as if it's on totally equal terms all you want, but the reality's not quite like that.

Are you expecting Israel to simply give up and cater to the Palestinians' demands?

Saying things like "You guys have to work out your differences and stop acting like children" as a response to the actual facts is basically sticking your head in the sand. One side is less wrong than the other, and you may not want to admit that, but you have to actually get specific to deal with a specific situation. Making blatant statements that don't account for the historical reality doesn't do the situation justice.

 

[Shermana]

That kind of talk makes you look like a racist.

If that makes you think I'm a racist, that's fine, because this kind of comment makes it look like you're playing right into the whole point of the OP and ignoring the geopolitical context, history, and evidence. Do you think I make that comment for no reason just because I'm a 'racist'? Do you think there's no legitimacy to this comment? Maybe the truth is "Racist" as you use the term "racist". But I do note that you didn't feel the rest of the comment was worth addressing for some reason. Why could that be?

Notice how I mentioned the handover of Gaza. Notice how no one is discussing that. Why? Because it proves my point and this doesn't sit well with those who want to pretend like the Israelis are more at fault than the others or that the Palestinians
aren't obligated to play fair.
So I can see easily how that comment might make me look racist to someone who wants to cast judgment calls on a situation they willfully refuse to examine the specifics about.

Even if my statement makes me sound "racist" for whatever reason, do you think my statement is proven false by the historical situation or are you just looking for an opprotutnity to call me racist because I'm explaining my take on the evidence?

Feel free to offer a comment on the handover of Gaza in 2005 and not quote snipping me. Quote snipping me and leaving out the explanation and critical parts is what could be construed as truly racist. Not wanting the relevant facts to be known so that you can make a judgment call on my judgment call without the whole story because you want to spin it in the direction apart from the facts in question.

 

[Alceste]

Let me repeat:

Israel has offered on numerous occasions to work out a peace deal like grown ups.

The Palestinians have refused each time.

They blame Israel's existence as the reason for perpetuating the "two way conflict".

So at what point are you going to blame both sides when one side has offered the olive branch at generous terms and the other side has rejected it repeatedly.

You can pretend they're equally at fault and try to play as if it's on totally equal terms all you want, but the reality's not quite like that.

Suffice it to say it seems we're reading different newspapers.

The ones I read (pretty much all the mainstream ones) don't seem to share your sense of the facts, so it's unlikely we're going to be able to have a discussion.

 

[Shermana]

Suffice it to say it seems we're reading different newspapers.

The ones I read (pretty much all the mainstream ones) don't seem to share your sense of the facts, so it's unlikely we're going to be able to have a discussion.

Okay, what are your newspapers saying differently about the repeated gestures of generous peace offered by Israel and the rejection by the Palestinians? I'd be interested to know what your information source is saying about the history of the peace accords. As far as I'm concerned, the mainstream newspapers have all reported the same major stories on the attempted peace deals, so perhaps you simply misread what the news sources said? Otherwise, please, by all means let me know what I've been missing from the "mainstream sources" that somehow contradict what I've said here.

 

[Alceste]

Okay, what are your newspapers saying differently about the repeated gestures of generous peace offered by Israel and the rejection by the Palestinians? I'd be interested to know what your information source is saying about the history of the peace accords. As far as I'm concerned, the mainstream newspapers have all reported the same major stories on the attempted peace deals, so perhaps you simply misread what the news sources said? Otherwise, please, by all means let me know what I've been missing from the "mainstream sources" that somehow contradict what I've said here.

They say you're both completely inflexible. Israel refuses to budge on the illegal settlements and the PA refuses to recognize the legitimacy of Israel, so peace talks are sabotaged from the start by both sides.

Childish.

 

[jazzymom]

Says you i am pretty sure the Palestinians civilians who lived in village's have something else to say about that. The same question can be asked where is the proof that 6 million Jews died.

12 million people died and 6 million were Jews.

It is factual and documented.

Maybe you should do some homework and learn about ww2.
,
The Germans were excellent record keepers when it came to their activities and genocide.

Nothing in the Palestinian territory compares to the shoah.

 

[Revoltingest]

This is a little off track, but it illustrates (what I see) an undercurrent of US thought & policy.
‘Killing Jews Is Worship’ Ad Campaign Rolled Out On SF Muni Buses « CBS San Francisco
It's all us-vs-them & they-just-can't-be-reasoned-with mentality which leads to certain & prolonged war.

 

[Alceste]

This is a little off track, but it illustrates (what I see) an undercurrent of US thought & policy.
‘Killing Jews Is Worship’ Ad Campaign Rolled Out On SF Muni Buses « CBS San Francisco
It's all us-vs-them & they-just-can't-be-reasoned-with mentality which leads to certain & prolonged war.

Disgusting.

 

[Shermana]

They say you're both completely inflexible. Israel refuses to budge on the illegal settlements and the PA refuses to recognize the legitimacy of Israel, so peace talks are sabotaged from the start by both sides.

Childish.

Thing is, even if Israel got rid of the "illegal" settlements, they still wouldn't recognize Israel, they've offered to basically give them Judea-Samaria. So why should Israel budge on something if the other side won't? That's not childish, that's realpolitik.

Think about it. One side is being asked to give something up that's actually tangible like lucrative settlements, the other side is merely being asked to recognize Israel and guarantee a long term peace deal.

Perhaps I should ask again for a comment on what happened when Israel generously handed over Gaza, and why anything different should be expected with Judea-Samaria?