Who Or What Is Israel?

[Elihoenai]

Totally out of context. This thinking is the religious thinking that Jesus had problems with...

Mark 7:13
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

1 Cor 7:1 was about (concerning things that ye wrote to me) - of which it was about fornication - vs 2 let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

1 Cor 7:29 - comes after 28 But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned.

You can’t mine quotes but you have to read the whole of the cntext

The Giants of the Christian Faith Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ, John the Baptist and Paul the Apostle are Celibate. I Follow Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ. Celibacy is Greater than Marriage. To Marry is Better than Fornication.

yes, Christians are anointed the word means anointed ones

How does a Christian get Anointed?

??? and?

And Elohim/God has limited what those with the Mind of the Flesh can see in the Holy Scriptures. It appears to you that I'm disagreeing with Holy Scriptures, as you have asserted, because of a Limited Consciousness. Christian Gnostics/Monks have a Difference Consciousness from Normal People.

 

[Elihoenai]

Really? Then why are people who keep the commandments suffering illness, natural disasters, etc?

This is a Critical question. The reason is that people have been Deluded into Believing they are keeping the Commandments when Really they are Not Keeping the Commandments. Elohim/God is True to his Promise of Health and Protection Conditional on keeping Elohim's/God's Commandments. You should know this from the Torah, that when Israel rebels against Elohim/God than Elohim/God brings Calamities on them.

I told members on this forum a few times before that Moses is an Ascetic. Given your Judaism Heritage you won't be able to see this.

 

[Elihoenai]

According to the Bible, there are two different Israel (Gal 4:25-26). One is the old Israel, which is Judaism, and the other is the new Israel, which is Christianity. According to the Bible, Christianity is the true spiritual Israel (Gal 6:16). Christians are described as the true spiritual Jews (Rom 2:28-29) and as the true spiritual descendants of Abraham (Gal 3:28-29). According to Jesus, Christians are the new spiritual people of God who have replaced the old Israel (Matt 21:43).

Justin Martyr: "For the true spiritual Israel, and descendants of Judah, Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham (who in uncircumcision was approved of and blessed by God on account of his faith, and called the father of many nations), are we who have been led to God through this crucified Christ."

Therefore, do you agree that there is a Spiritual Israel and Fleshly Israel? Are you saying Fleshly Israel no longer exists?

 

[nick.f]

God Himself is the one who created Israel as a nation for a mission and gave them that name. If they fail and don't behave and others fulfill that mission better what stops Him to use other people and give them that name? Both in the Old Testament and the New Testament God Himself says:

Deuteronomy 9:
13 And the Lord said to me, “I have seen this people, and they are a stiff-necked people indeed! 14 Let me alone, so that I may destroy them and blot out their name from under heaven. And I will make you into a nation stronger and more numerous than they.”

God would make another Israel out of Moses.

Luke 3:
8...and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Here He would make another Israel out of ...stones.
I have seen an interpretation that says it is symbolic and by stones He means the hearts of nations, the gentiles that were hard as stones at that point of time. It is true that the gentiles soon enough accepted Him as the Messiah, thus the new Israel, while the Israelis didn't accept Him and even crucified Him.

The first who accepted Jesus as the Messiah were Israelis studying the Law of Moses, what stops the others? Other Israelis for 2024 years now study the same books as them yet they deny Jesus is the Messiah. Answer: When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, “Here truly is an Israelite in whom there is no deceit.”

John 1:
45 Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”
...
49 Then Nathanael declared, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the King of Israel.”

 

[2ndpillar]

OMGosh. It's a Yes/No question. you wax eloquent, but never answer the question.

I thought the question was why do "Christians" get sick and die, which is the same reason Jews get sick and die. They do not keep the Commandments, and therefore are under a curse. (Deut 28:15-16). Ephraim/Israel is "scattered among the nations"/Gentiles and come under the "statutes". (Ezekiel 36). All the nations/Gentiles, "everybody", come under the Commandments (Ecclesiastes 12:13).
Deut 28:15 If, however, you do not obey the LORD your God by carefully following all His commandments and statutes I am giving you today, all these curses will come upon you and overtake you: 16You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.…

 

[Kenny]

The Giants of the Christian Faith Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ, John the Baptist and Paul the Apostle are Celibate. I Follow Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ. Celibacy is Greater than Marriage. To Marry is Better than Fornication.

Yes… you can choose that route as mentioned. Not required.

How does a Christian get Anointed?

Be born again and be filled with the dunamis of God.

And Elohim/God has limited what those with the Mind of the Flesh can see in the Holy Scriptures. It appears to you that I'm disagreeing with Holy Scriptures, as you have asserted, because of a Limited Consciousness. Christian Gnostics/Monks have a Difference Consciousness from Normal People.

Gnosticism is rebuked in scriptures. If you are born-again, you aren’t “normal” - you are supernatural

 

[2ndpillar]

According to the Bible, there are two different Israel (Gal 4:25-26). One is the old Israel, which is Judaism, and the other is the new Israel, which is Christianity. According to the Bible, Christianity is the true spiritual Israel (Gal 6:16). Christians are described as the true spiritual Jews (Rom 2:28-29) and as the true spiritual descendants of Abraham (Gal 3:28-29). According to Jesus, Christians are the new spiritual people of God who have replaced the old Israel (Matt 21:43).

Justin Martyr: "For the true spiritual Israel, and descendants of Judah, Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham (who in uncircumcision was approved of and blessed by God on account of his faith, and called the father of many nations), are we who have been led to God through this crucified Christ."

You are referring to the false prophet Paul with respect to Gal 4:25. That would be the message of the "enemy"/"devil" per Matthew 13, which is the tare seed, in which the tares are looking towards their eradication per Matthew 13:30 at the "end of the age", which we are now in. Mt 21 is referring to Hosea 3, whereas the son of man, Hosea, was to purchase an adulterous for "many days", until Israel returns, for the equivalent price of 30 shekels of silver. The shepherd who took the 30 pieces of silver was Judas Iscariot, as for told in Zechariah 11:12-13, one of three shepherds, the other two being Peter and Paul (Zech 11:7-17). The expire date on the "adulterer", the Gentile church, has come and gone. Their foundation of sand is now eroding rapidly (Matthew 7:24-27).

 

[2ndpillar]

It mentions Levites and judges. The judges eventually became the pharisees, who became the rabbis. Thus what it says about judges, refers today to the rabbis.

Says you and the "scribes" (Jeremiah 8:8). The judges of old were all anointed, and the Levites remain unsanctified (Malachi 3:3). And apparently, you choose which Levites to follow, and which to discard.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I thought the question was why do "Christians" get sick and die, which is the same reason Jews get sick and die.

No, my question was why do those who DO KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS get sick and die?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

This is a Critical question. The reason is that people have been Deluded into Believing they are keeping the Commandments when Really they are Not Keeping the Commandments. Elohim/God is True to his Promise of Health and Protection Conditional on keeping Elohim's/God's Commandments. You should know this from the Torah, that when Israel rebels against Elohim/God than Elohim/God brings Calamities on them.

I told members on this forum a few times before that Moses is an Ascetic. Given your Judaism Heritage you won't be able to see this.

I agree that it goes without saying that (with very few exceptions) Christians make no effort to keep the commandments. They believe that Jesus "fulfilled the law" which they interpret to mean that the law is abrogated (despite Jesus saying the exact opposite). They eat bacon and mow their lawns on Saturday and don't even know when Yom Kippur is.

I'm actually okay with that, as I think the Mosaic laws apply only to Jews. As long as non-Jews are basically ethical, like they don't murder, don't steal, etc., they are righteous in God's eyes and have a share in the world to come.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I am only repeating what the New Testament teaches. Whether what the New Testament teaches is true, everyone must decide for themselves.

No, you are repeating an INTERPRETATION of the Bible. It has had a long and thriving history in the churches, but as I noted, all but a very few churches have disavowed themselves of this teaching, since it has become crystal clear that it leads to the genocide of Jews.

 

[2ndpillar]

No, my question was why do those who DO KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS get sick and die?

Saying you keep the Commandments and the covenants, and keeping them is not the same. Most Christians claim to keep the Commandments, but then again, do they? Or do they keep the commandments of the Beast with two horns like a lamb, the emperor Constantine, and his Trinity dogma of having 3 gods, and his day of the sun worship, which is done on Sunday? As for the Jews, if they pursue idolatry, in whatever form, they are cursed into the lives of their children. Do the Jews worship Mammon, or do they fear the LORD? Ask Bernie Madoff and the bankers in New York, and the Rothschilds, and the halfwit Janet Yellen (inflation is transitory), who is no smarter than her halfwit boss, the Catholic Joe Biden, who says the economy is great. He apparently doesn't buy the White House groceries.

Exodus 20:5​

You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,​

​

I'm actually okay with that, as I think the Mosaic laws apply only to Jews. As long as non-Jews are basically ethical, like they don't murder, don't steal, etc., they are righteous in God's eyes and have a share in the world to come.

The Mosaic laws apply to Israel. Jews, or Judah only represents Judah, Levi, and Benjamin. You still have Ephraim/Israel "scattered" among the nations/Gentiles (Ezekiel 36 & 37). As for Yom Kippur, the "Christians", for the most part, do not know what that is. After the "day of the LORD" Joel 2:31-3:8), which is attached to the Judgment of the nations/Gentiles, it will be with respect to the feast of Unleavened Bread, and the Passover, when the survivors of the nations/Gentiles, will keep the feast of Booths or go without rain (Zechariah 14:16). As per Joel 2:30, the "day of the LORD", the judgment time of the Gentiles/nations, it will follow the blood moon, which is to say, that the blood moon will precede the Passover event. A Blood moon event occurs at the end of this month and precedes Passover. According to Joel 2:30-31, those who are to escape are those "on Mount Zion" and "in Jerusalem", and who call on the "name of the LORD". That seems to leave most of those in Southern California in a lurch.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Saying you keep the Commandments and the covenants, and keeping them is not the same.

Every instance that you obey any law, you are keeping the commandments. It's really not about perfection. It's about direction. Hey that rhymes!

Proverbs 24:16 For a righteous man falls seven times, and rises again

Do you fathom the significance of that verse? It says two things. First, that the righteous are NOT perfect, that they fall, and more than once. But what distinguishes them from the wicked is that they "rise again." IOW repent.

So there are PLENTY of Jews that are righteous.

Most Christians claim to keep the Commandments, but then again, do they?

Not that I'm aware of. In my experience, with very few exceptions, Christians make no effort to obey the Law. They teach that Jesus "fulfilled the law" and interpret that to mean he abrogated the law (despite Jesus saying the exact opposite. They eat bacon and mow their lawn on Saturday and have no idea when Yom Kippur is.

The Mosaic laws apply to Israel. Jews, or Judah only represents Judah, Levi, and Benjamin. You still have Ephraim/Israel "scattered" among the nations/Gentiles (Ezekiel 36 & 37).

Actually, you had plenty of refugees from the Northern Kingdom who fled south to Judah. There is plenty of archaeological evidence that proves this in fact. So basically, when the Kingdom of Judah went into the Babylonian Captivity, it included people from ALLLLLL the tribes, and in Babylon they were ALLLLLLL called Jews. Thus Hebrew=Israelite=Jew

 

[YoursTrue]

I understand that. But you have used that specific example on a number of occasions. Thus, it occupies a an amount of your brain that is disproportionate to its importance. It would be like saying over and over that humans evolved from reptiles. We did, but making that same statement over and over would seem a little strange to me.

Look, I totally get it that you think the bible is an authoritative and reliable source for history and facts about nature. I don't share that view, but I do appreciate that it is YOUR view.

As I have said, I certainly don't claim to understand everything in the Bible, but I do appreciate many things it says, in particular the love the God has for mankind. But now horrible things are happening, and I believe what the Bible says about these awful things stopping some day.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, that is exactly what I think, given the evidence. But I'm fine with you disagreeing.

To me, evolution is simply God's Modus Operandi.

Since God designed the laws of nature, he is indirectly responible for all acts of nature, including hurricanes, tornados, earthquakes, famines, droughts, tidal waves, volcano eruptions, etc. But I don't think God is sitting in heaven saying "Whom shall I smite today with an earthquake?"

Maimonides said something like that also about the reason for our existence. It was article #1 of the 13 articles of faith:
1. Belief in the existence of the Creator, who is perfect in every manner of existence and is the Primary Cause of all that exists.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Maimonides said something like that also about the reason for our existence. It was article #1 of the 13 articles of faith:
1. Belief in the existence of the Creator, who is perfect in every manner of existence and is the Primary Cause of all that exists.

There is no contradiction with believing God created everything, and accepting evolution. Like I said, evolution is God's MO.

Maimonides is interesting for many reasons. This includes the fact that even though he lived in the 12th century, he did not take the Genesis creation account literally, but viewed it philosophically. In his work "Guide for the Perplexed" he proposed that Genesis creation should be read as a form of allegory, revealing deeper philosophical truths. This helped make Jewish understanding more accepting of science, while preserving the religious significance of the account.

 

[Elihoenai]

Yes… you can choose that route as mentioned. Not required.

For Christian Gnostics/Monks You Must be Celibate because Christian Gnostics/Monks Become Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ.

Be born again and be filled with the dunamis of God.

What Sacraments are Required to be Born Again and Filled with the Power/Dunamis of Elohim/God?

Gnosticism is rebuked in scriptures. If you are born-again, you aren’t “normal” - you are supernatural

The Holy Scriptures/Bible is Christian Gnosticism. Elohim/God teaches Esoteric and Exoteric Knowledge in the Holy Scriptures/Bible. Exoteric Knowledge is the Dead Letter. Christian Gnosticism is rebuked by the Roman Catholic Church as Heresy. The Christian Gnosticism that Elohim/God has shown me has Differences from Traditional Christian Gnosticism.



Gnosticism

Gnosticism (from Ancient Greek: γνωστικός, romanized: gnōstikós, Koine Greek: [ɣnostiˈkos], 'having knowledge') is a collection of religious ideas and systems that coalesced in the late 1st century AD among Jewish and early Christian sects. These various groups emphasized personal spiritual knowledge (gnosis) above the proto-orthodox teachings, traditions, and authority of religious institutions. Gnostic cosmogony generally presents a distinction between a supreme, hidden God and a malevolent lesser divinity (sometimes associated with the biblical deity Yahweh)[1] who is responsible for creating the material universe. Consequently, Gnostics considered material existence flawed or evil, and held the principal element of salvation to be direct knowledge of the hidden divinity, attained via mystical or esoteric insight.

Gnosticism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You are normal because you are Living a Normal Life and Not Supernatural. Saying that you have the Holy Spirit or that you are Supernatural does Not make it True.

 

[Elihoenai]

I agree that it goes without saying that (with very few exceptions) Christians make no effort to keep the commandments. They believe that Jesus "fulfilled the law" which they interpret to mean that the law is abrogated (despite Jesus saying the exact opposite). They eat bacon and mow their lawns on Saturday and don't even know when Yom Kippur is.

I'm actually okay with that, as I think the Mosaic laws apply only to Jews. As long as non-Jews are basically ethical, like they don't murder, don't steal, etc., they are righteous in God's eyes and have a share in the world to come.

Gentiles Become Jews/Israel by keeping the Law of Moses. The teaching of Judaism agrees with Gentiles becoming Jews/Israel by Conversion. Christian Gnostics Interpret the Law Differently from the practitioners of Judaism Seeing the Ascetic Moses.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Gentiles Become Jews/Israel by keeping the Law of Moses. The teaching of Judaism agrees with Gentiles becoming Jews/Israel by Conversion. Christian Gnostics Interpret the Law Differently from the practitioners of Judaism Seeing the Ascetic Moses.

It takes more than that. Becoming a Jew does involve taking on the Law, but it also requires a lengthy period of study of Jewish culture, history, the Hebrew language, etc. At the end of the study period, the individual is tested by a Jewish tribunal. If they pass, they immerse in a mikvah. THEN they are a Jew/Hebrew/Israelite.

I have no problems with that you are a Christian Gnostic. But that is quite different from being a Jew. If it brings you closer to God and helps you to be a better person to observe the Law, then I support you. But it is not obligatory for you in the same way that it is for me.

 

[Kenny]

For Christian Gnostics/Monks You Must be Celibate because Christian Gnostics/Monks Become Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ.

never was a requirement…

What Sacraments are Required to be Born Again and Filled with the Power/Dunamis of Elohim/God?

Look at Cornelius in Acts 10 - and then tell me...

The Holy Scriptures/Bible is Christian Gnosticism. Elohim/God teaches Esoteric and Exoteric Knowledge in the Holy Scriptures/Bible. Exoteric Knowledge is the Dead Letter. Christian Gnosticism is rebuked by the Roman Catholic Church as Heresy. The Christian Gnosticism that Elohim/God has shown me has Differences from Traditional Christian Gnosticism.

Nice statement… but no support.

Gnosticism

Gnosticism (from Ancient Greek: γνωστικός, romanized: gnōstikós, Koine Greek: [ɣnostiˈkos], 'having knowledge') is a collection of religious ideas and systems that coalesced in the late 1st century AD among Jewish and early Christian sects. These various groups emphasized personal spiritual knowledge (gnosis) above the proto-orthodox teachings, traditions, and authority of religious institutions. Gnostic cosmogony generally presents a distinction between a supreme, hidden God and a malevolent lesser divinity (sometimes associated with the biblical deity Yahweh)[1] who is responsible for creating the material universe. Consequently, Gnostics considered material existence flawed or evil, and held the principal element of salvation to be direct knowledge of the hidden divinity, attained via mystical or esoteric insight.

Gnosticism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

What the Bible says about Gnosticism

When the apostle John wrote his first epistle near the end of the first century, the Gnostic philosophy had swept through the Roman world and had …

www.bibletools.org

You are normal because you are Living a Normal Life and Not Supernatural. Saying that you have the Holy Spirit or that you are Supernatural does Not make it True.