Who Or What Is Israel?

[URAVIP2ME]

There are many guesses how it is pronounced, but in the end, they remain only guesses.

Yes, many guesses or calculated from the Tetragrammaton YHWH
In Shakespeare's day, the King James Version the accepted English pronunciation for God's name is at Psalm 83:18 B
Seems using God's name was important to Jesus because he wanted his God's name to be hallowed, held as sacred, sanctified.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Titus 1:14 14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
You will Most Certainly Know the Name of Elohim/God and Pronounce the Name of Elohim/God when You Become One With Elohim/God. Only Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ Is One With Elohim/God.
Everything else is Worthless Fables by those claiming to be Jews and so-called Christians that have Rejected and Mocked Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ. To Attain Oneness With Elohim/God you Must Totally Rid Yourself of Idle so-called Christian an Jewish influence.

I find Elohim is Not from the Tetragrammaton YHWH
Lord and God are titles and Not a personal name.
In King James' day the accepted English pronunciation for God's name YHWH is found at KJV Psalm 83:18 B

 

[2ndpillar]

I find Elohim is Not from the Tetragrammaton YHWH
Lord and God are titles and Not a personal name.
In King James' day the accepted English pronunciation for God's name YHWH is found at KJV Psalm 83:18 B

New King James Version Psalms 83:18
That they may know that You, whose name alone is the LORD, Are the Most High over all the earth.

The King James Bible was published to the glory of a gay British Monarch. Nothing to see here. Titus was a supposedly a letter from the false prophet Paul to some young man named Titus. It seemed that Paul was attracted to young men, such as Timothy and Titus. If anyone was a messenger of the devil (Matthew 13), whose message was one of lawlessness/wickedness (Mt 13:24-49), that person would be Paul and his false gospel of grace/lawlessness.

 

[Elihoenai]

I find Elohim is Not from the Tetragrammaton YHWH
Lord and God are titles and Not a personal name.
In King James' day the accepted English pronunciation for God's name YHWH is found at KJV Psalm 83:18 B

Going down this path is the Jewish Worthless Fable Path that is Unprofitable Idleness. Nobody can Know the name of Elohim/God Without the Holy Spirit. You Must get the Holy Spirit to know the Name of Elohim/God.


Tetragrammaton

Abrahamic religions. For the episode of the drama series Person of Interest, see YHWH (Person of Interest).

The Tetragrammaton in Phoenician (12th century BCE to 150 BCE), Paleo-Hebrew (10th century BCE to 135 CE), and square Hebrew (3rd century BCE to present) scripts
The Tetragrammaton (/ˌtɛtrəˈɡræmətɒn/ TET-rə-GRAM-ə-ton; from Ancient Greek τετραγράμματον '[consisting of] four letters'), or the Tetragram, is the four-letter Hebrew theonym יהוה‎ (transliterated as YHWH or YHVH), the name of God in the Hebrew Bible. The four letters, written and read from right to left (in Hebrew), are yodh, he, waw, and he.[1] The name may be derived from a verb that means "to be", "to exist", "to cause to become", or "to come to pass".[2] While there is no consensus about the structure and etymology of the name, the form Yahweh is now accepted almost universally, though the vocalization Jehovah continues to have wide usage.[3][4][5]

The books of the Torah and the rest of the Hebrew Bible except Esther, Ecclesiastes, and (with a possible instance of the short form יה‎ in verse 8:6) the Song of Songs contain this Hebrew name.[4] Observant Jews and those who follow Talmudic Jewish traditions do not pronounce יהוה‎ nor do they read aloud proposed transcription forms such as Yahweh or Yehovah; instead they replace it with a different term, whether in addressing or referring to the God of Israel. Common substitutions in Hebrew are אֲדֹנָי (Adonai, lit. transl. My Lords, pluralis majestatis taken as singular) or Elohim (literally "gods" but treated as singular when meaning "God") in prayer, or HaShem ("The Name") in everyday speech.

Tetragrammaton - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Elihoenai]

Deuteronomy 26:18

18 And the Lord hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people, as he hath promised thee, and that thou shouldest keep all his commandments;


Israel Keeps All the Commandments of the Elohim/God of Israel. Those that are Not Keeping All the Commandments of the Elohim/God of Israel are Gentiles. Do you know of any people that are Keeping All the Commandments of the Elohim/God of Israel?

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Genesis 32:28

28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.



Does Genetics Only Determine Who Israel Is?

Do you Beleive that there is a Spiritual Israel?

Do you agree that Elohim/God has Ordained Spiritual Israel and Fleshly Israel?

What does it mean to have the Israeli Trait of Power With Elohim/God and With Men?​

In my view, Israel includes all those who believe in the message of Abraham of one God but Israel is not defined by the descendant of Jacob or by the Genetic inheritance.

 

[John D. Brey]

In my view, Israel includes all those who believe in the message of Abraham of one God but Israel is not defined by the descendant of Jacob or by the Genetic inheritance.

It might be easier to parse that statement by saying the Abrahamic covenant isn't defined completely by Abraham's physical descendant. In which case we bring up Abrahamic spiritual descendants (versus merely physical descendants) who (Abraham's spiritual descendants) may or may not be related to the land of Israel, or the Israelites, directly, but only spiritually.


John

 

[IndigoChild5559]

In my view, Israel includes all those who believe in the message of Abraham of one God but Israel is not defined by the descendant of Jacob or by the Genetic inheritance.

Sorry, dude. That doesn't work for us. We, the People of Israel, accept as Jews those with a Jewish mother or who have gone through a formal conversion to Judaism. There are plenty of people who accept the God of Abraham who are not Israel, aka are not Jews.

You are correct that it is not "genetic," but it is more complex than you are making out. Let me give you two examples:
1. Let's say a person has a Jewish father, but not a Jewish mother. Even though he gets "Jewish DNA" from his father, he is not a Jew at all. In order to be a Jew, his mother would have to be a Jew (even if the father is not).
2. Converts do not have any "Jewish DNA" at all, and yet are 100% Jew. This is because we are a tribal people, and as with other tribes, a person can be adopted in. In this case, that means a formal conversion to Judaism. They would of course marry a fellow Jew, and their children would not only be Jews via the Jewishness of the mother, but the children would also have the shared ancestry.

I realize this is difficult for modern people to understand. In modernity, most people have boxes for "race," "nation," and "religion." The box for "tribal people" just no longer exists in most people's minds, and so they are at a loss for which box to put us into.

 

[YoursTrue]

In my view, Israel includes all those who believe in the message of Abraham of one God but Israel is not defined by the descendant of Jacob or by the Genetic inheritance.

It isn't? I am not saying it is, but how do you view it? There's Abraham and then there's what happened after him.

 

[Sargonski]

In my view, Israel includes all those who believe in the message of Abraham of one God but Israel is not defined by the descendant of Jacob or by the Genetic inheritance.

Then Israel is Zero .. as the message of Abraham was not one of "One God" Abraham believed in many Gods .. as did his Father Terah.. Abe's big move away from Polytheism was not that these Gods do not exist .. but that he would worship only one of these Gods.

You got the message wrong Brother Bharat..

It isn't? I am not saying it is, but how do you view it? There's Abraham and then there's what happened after his.

After adopting the EL Elyon as his God .. "El Shaddai" .. God most high .. Chief God of the heavens .. head of the Divine Pantheon .. he travels to the land of Canaan .. where the Priesthood of this God is located .. at the time was in Jerusalem .. known as the priesthood of Melchi-Zedek or the Zedokite Priesthood .. the priesthood of the Most High Canaanite God EL

This Priesthood is maintained at Jerusalem for 800 years .. when King David takes Jerusalem .. the Priest King at the time named "Adoni-Zedek" - My God is Zedek .. Patron God of Jerusalem ..

Now .. oddly enough .. after "Cleansing the Land - From the River to the Sea" none of that goes on in the Holy City of Jerusalem .. instead slaughtering all the pagan priests of the cities captured .. King David Submits to the priesthood of Melchi-Zedek .. and it is that Priesthood which is maintained. .. the High Priest at the time Zadok .. as opposed to the Priesthood of Aaron . It is Zadok who annoints King Solomon . .and not the high Priest of Aaronic priesthood .. King Solomon is not annointed under the Priesthood of YHWH ladies and gentleman

Now how this all works .. YHWH being the National God of Israel .. and now long the priesthood of the mysterous Melchi-Zedek continues .. is a story for another day.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

It might be easier to parse that statement by saying the Abrahamic covenant isn't defined completely by Abraham's physical descendant. In which case we bring up Abrahamic spiritual descendants (versus merely physical descendants) who (Abraham's spiritual descendants) may or may not be related to the land of Israel, or the Israelites, directly, but only spiritually.


John

The term .Isn't completely defined. places physical descendants at a higher pedestal. It seems to say that physical is necessary but not sufficient. What do you say? Thx

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Sorry, dude. That doesn't work for us. We, the People of Israel, accept as Jews those with a Jewish mother or who have gone through a formal conversion to Judaism. There are plenty of people who accept the God of Abraham who are not Israel, aka are not Jews.

You are correct that it is not "genetic," but it is more complex than you are making out. Let me give you two examples:
1. Let's say a person has a Jewish father, but not a Jewish mother. Even though he gets "Jewish DNA" from his father, he is not a Jew at all. In order to be a Jew, his mother would have to be a Jew (even if the father is not).
2. Converts do not have any "Jewish DNA" at all, and yet are 100% Jew. This is because we are a tribal people, and as with other tribes, a person can be adopted in. In this case, that means a formal conversion to Judaism. They would of course marry a fellow Jew, and their children would not only be Jews via the Jewishness of the mother, but the children would also have the shared ancestry.

I realize this is difficult for modern people to understand. In modernity, most people have boxes for "race," "nation," and "religion." The box for "tribal people" just no longer exists in most people's minds, and so they are at a loss for which box to put us into.

I think the whole physical bit whether mother or father was invented by Moses during the Exodus when the Jews had to confront many stronger people and there was fear of dissipation of the congregation.
All religions must evolve.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

King David Submits to the priesthood of Melchi-Zedek .. and it is that Priesthood which is maintained.

Thanks for the info. Question. Is Zadok polytheist? Yahweh is compatible with Elohim but Zadok?

 

[YoursTrue]

Deuteronomy 26:18

18 And the Lord hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people, as he hath promised thee, and that thou shouldest keep all his commandments;


Israel Keeps All the Commandments of the Elohim/God of Israel. Those that are Not Keeping All the Commandments of the Elohim/God of Israel are Gentiles. Do you know of any people that are Keeping All the Commandments of the Elohim/God of Israel?

When you say Israel keeps all the commandments, exactly what are you referring to when you say Israel? Do you mean Jews? Or the nation of Israel? which is it?

 

[Sargonski]

Thanks for the info. Question. Is Zadok polytheist? Yahweh is compatible with Elohim but Zadok?

Well -- not necessarily -- and glad you asked - hopefully you will like the answer.

Polytheist is the worship of many Gods ..as opposed to the belief in many and worship of only one (henotheism) as opposed to the belief in the existence of only one God (monotheism)

Now - .. some grey ) Zedek is the Patron God of Jerusalem in Canaanite times .. .. but Jerusalem is a Holy City so a bit different than other cities .. very small population. In any case Zedek is the twin God -- Justice and Righteousness -- so the Priest-king MelChi-Zedek .. who Abraham meets .. and share bread and wine .. giving thanks to the "Most High God" .. are not worshiping Zedek .. but the High God El .. Head of the divine Council (in which YHWH is standing in Psalm 82)

This can be looked at as a type of "Christ" not Jesus 2000 years later .. but a type that comes earlier .. Zedek is seated at the right hand of the Most High .. Justice and Righteousness .. obviously subordinate to "The Father" --- one of EL's main epithets .

So Abe is not necessarily worshiping Zedek .. but the Most High God of the priesthood of Zedek .. Abe definitely believes in other divinities .. but he does not worship them so is not a polytheist .. supposedly. Now .. everyone after Abe .. is likely polytheist .. and the Israelites are pure polytheist.

The cult of YHWH does not exist in Abe's time (at least not one that Abe follows) YHWH is one of the 70 Son's of EL -- and the Bible from Moses on is the story of the fight of these Sons of God to usurp El's position as Chief God on Earth. El Still retaining the Position of Chief God of the Heavens ..

The YHWH is the National God of the Polytheistic Israelites .. and so they worship this God .. have many temples for this God .. but all believe that EL is High God in the Heavens. and all YHWH worship was polytheistic .. YHWH was worshiped alongside consort Asherah .. Sister Anat .. and sometimes BAAL .. having a very close relationship such that at one place in the Bible YHWH states .. You will no longer call me "my BA'AL" but I digress.

How YHWH fits in to Abe ?.. he doesn't ? YHWH usurps the position of EL as chief God on Earth for a time .. then he loses the throne later on .. defeated by the God of the Assyrians .. then later killed off completely.

Later Believers -- confuse the fact that YHWH takes on the some of the Earthly traits of EL .. with YHWH being EL --

The God of Judaism is not YHWH -- who dies at the hand of Marduk. YHWH is not the God of Jesus .. not "The Father" who Jesus prays to .. "Hallowed be thy Name" .. as Jesus is a priest forever in the Order of Melchi-Zedek ... as was King David .. as was Melchi-Zedek ..

and .. interestingly enough .. the Saduccees in the Hasmonian dynasty ..

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I think the whole physical bit whether mother or father was invented by Moses during the Exodus when the Jews had to confront many stronger people and there was fear of dissipation of the congregation.
All religions must evolve.

The origins of Jewish law are not important to me. The only point here worth considering is that it is Jewish law that determines who is a Jew, and I have told you what Jewish law says. No one, not even the Queen of England, can presume to claim being a Jew unless they meet the criteria established by Jewish law. Someone claiming "Oh but my scriptures says I am grafted into Israel" is just as ridiculous as someone born in Lower Slabovia who has never even visited the US saying, "My favorite author says I am an American citizen."

 

[John D. Brey]

The origins of Jewish law are not important to me. The only point here worth considering is that it is Jewish law that determines who is a Jew,

When you say it's Jewish law that determines who is a Jew, I would counter that Jewish law doesn't determine who is a Jew so much as Jewish law is a lawful description "describing" who is a Jew. The law doesn't make a person a Jew. It's just a legal elucidation concerning the precise dynamics of Jewish identity.

No Jew formulated the law of Jewish identity willy nilly. The law is based on the pre-existing facts of what determines Jewish identity. The law doesn't codify the facts of Jewish identity ex nihilo; it describes pre-existing facts for the sake of a legal explanation of something true with our without the law. Without the law, a Jew would still be a Jew. It's just that there wouldn't be a legal description/determinant helping to protect the truth of Jewish identity.

and I have told you what Jewish law says. No one, not even the Queen of England, can presume to claim being a Jew unless they meet the criteria established by Jewish law. Someone claiming "Oh but my scriptures says I am grafted into Israel" is just as ridiculous as someone born in Lower Slabovia who has never even visited the US saying, "My favorite author says I am an American citizen."

Your statement is at least ironic since Jewish law doesn't require a Jew be born in Israel, visit Israel, or have any relation to Israel. So in a sense your favorite author of Jewish law says a person is an Israelite even though no member of their family has been there in thousands of years. That's like me saying I'm a Trogan even though Troy ain't been around for a long long time and I've never worn one.



John

 

[YoursTrue]

The origins of Jewish law are not important to me.

Of course not.

The only point here worth considering is that it is Jewish law that determines who is a Jew, and I have told you what Jewish law says. No one, not even the Queen of England, can presume to claim being a Jew unless they meet the criteria established by Jewish law. Someone claiming "Oh but my scriptures says I am grafted into Israel" is just as ridiculous as someone born in Lower Slabovia who has never even visited the US saying, "My favorite author says I am an American citizen."

There are synagogues of course that will bar mitzvah a boy born from a non-Jewish mother.

 

[YoursTrue]

When you say it's Jewish law that determines who is a Jew, I would counter that Jewish law doesn't determine who is a Jew so much as Jewish law is a lawful description "describing" who is a Jew. The law doesn't make a person a Jew. It's just a legal elucidation concerning the precise dynamics of Jewish identity.

No Jew formulated the law of Jewish identity willy nilly. The law is based on the pre-existing facts of what determines Jewish identity. The law doesn't codify the facts of Jewish identity ex nihilo; it describes pre-existing facts for the sake of a legal explanation of something true with our without the law. Without the law, a Jew would still be a Jew. It's just that there wouldn't be a legal description/determinant helping to protect the truth of Jewish identity.



Your statement is at least ironic since Jewish law doesn't require a Jew be born in Israel, visit Israel, or have any relation to Israel. So in a sense your favorite author of Jewish law says a person is an Israelite even though no member of their family has been there in thousands of years. That's like me saying I'm a Trogan even though Troy ain't been around for a long long time and I've never worn one.



John

As a matter of fact, there are synagogues that will bar mitzvah a boy born from a non-Jewish mother.

 

[John D. Brey]

Sorry, dude. That doesn't work for us. We, the People of Israel, accept as Jews those with a Jewish mother or who have gone through a formal conversion to Judaism. There are plenty of people who accept the God of Abraham who are not Israel, aka are not Jews.

You are correct that it is not "genetic," but it is more complex than you are making out. Let me give you two examples:
1. Let's say a person has a Jewish father, but not a Jewish mother. Even though he gets "Jewish DNA" from his father, he is not a Jew at all. In order to be a Jew, his mother would have to be a Jew (even if the father is not).
2. Converts do not have any "Jewish DNA" at all, and yet are 100% Jew. This is because we are a tribal people, and as with other tribes, a person can be adopted in. In this case, that means a formal conversion to Judaism. They would of course marry a fellow Jew, and their children would not only be Jews via the Jewishness of the mother, but the children would also have the shared ancestry.

I realize this is difficult for modern people to understand. In modernity, most people have boxes for "race," "nation," and "religion." The box for "tribal people" just no longer exists in most people's minds, and so they are at a loss for which box to put us into.

As I've pointed out in the past, what appears absurd about Jewish identity can be fixed in the right context. And much concerning Jewish identity appears absolutely absurd until the proper context is understood.

For instance, if a Gentile woman is married to a Gentile man who's Christian, and she converts to Judaism, her daughters will be Jewish even if they practice Christianity like the father and go to a Christian church all of their lives. Worse, their daughters, and their daughters, til the end of time, will be Jewish no matter what religion they practice or don't practice. According to Jewish law, once a Gentile woman converts to Judaism and becomes a Jew, all of her female descendants till the end of time are Jewish.



John