Who Or What Is Israel?

[Elihoenai]

That is interesting. And I have a feeling that some here might disagree.

Deuteronomy 7:6

6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

Ephesians 6:12

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.


It's likely that almost every person on these forums will disagree with My Definition of Israel that the Elohim/God of Israel has shown me. That's because the World Powers teaches that you can be Israel/Jew Without Being a Serious Totally Devoted Practitioner of the Religion of the Elohim/God of Israel.

The World Powers makes it Easy thing to be Israel when Really it is the Hardest thing to be Israel. The World allows for all kinds Immoral Depraved Behaviour and still you are so-called Israel/Jew. You can be like the Worst Gentile, such as, a Serial Killer or Pedophile and still be so-called Israel/Jew. This teaching are the Lies of the Devil/Satan to Tarnish and Pour Filth on the Good Name of the True Israel/Jew. Elohim/God has given the True Israel/Jew the Highly Exalted Incomparable Moral Standards that is Morally Superior to any Gentile.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

What you Define to be Jew

There is only one authoritative source on who is a Jew, and that is Halakha (Jewish law). Halakha says that a Jew is either someone born of a Jewish mom, or who has formally converted to Judaism. So there is no "what I define to be a Jew" or "what you define to be a Jew." I'm not trying to be rude here, but I am forced to be frank. The truth is, your opinion, my opinion, YoursTruly's opinion, anyone's opinion on this subject doesn't matter.

 

[YoursTrue]

Deuteronomy 7:6

6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

Ephesians 6:12

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.


It's likely that almost every person on these forums will disagree with My Definition of Israel that the Elohim/God of Israel has shown me. That's because the World Powers teaches that you can be Israel/Jew Without Being a Serious Totally Devoted Practitioner of the Religion of the Elohim/God of Israel.

The World Powers makes it Easy thing to be Israel when Really it is the Hardest thing to be Israel. The World allows for all kinds Immoral Depraved Behaviour and still you are so-called Israel/Jew. You can be like the Worst Gentile, such as, a Serial Killer or Pedophile and still be so-called Israel/Jew. This teaching are the Lies of the Devil/Satan to Tarnish and Pour Filth on the Good Name of the True Israel/Jew. Elohim/God has given the True Israel/Jew the Highly Exalted Incomparable Moral Standards that is Morally Superior to any Gentile.

I understand your point, but obviously many here and otherwise would disagree with you. And, the "Israel of God" would include Jews and Gentiles, but -- they would have to live according to God's standards, as you seem to suggest. And in fact, those who are not the "Israel of God" should also adhere to the righteous laws and conduct of the true God. Just celebrating holidays or calling oneself a Jew or Christian does not mean he or she is acceptable to the one true Most High God.

 

[Elihoenai]

I understand your point, but obviously many here and otherwise would disagree with you. And, the "Israel of God" would include Jews and Gentiles, but -- they would have to live according to God's standards, as you seem to suggest. And in fact, those who are not the "Israel of God" should also adhere to the righteous laws and conduct of the true God. Just celebrating holidays or calling oneself a Jew or Christian does not mean he or she is acceptable to the one true Most High God.

Ephesians 2:12-13

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.


I'm not seeming to suggest anything. I have Asserted Categorically and with Great Clarity that Total Devotion to the Religion of the Elohim/God of Israel Produces and Maintains Israel. That's why an Atheist, Apostate, Secular Person or Lukewarm Practitioner cannot be Israel. Gentiles Become Israel/Jew through Total Devotion to the Religion of the Elohim/God of Israel Losing their Gentile Identity. This what the Elohim/God of Israel has Revealed to me about Israel/Jew Identity.

It's Irrelevant to me what those claiming to have Authority about "Who Is A Jew/Israel have defined. A person Cannot be Israel Without the Serious Practice of the Religion of the Elohim/God of Israel.

 

[YoursTrue]

I'm not seeming to suggest anything. I have Asserted Categorically and with Great Clarity that Total Devotion to the Religion of the Elohim/God of Israel Produces and Maintains Israel. That's why an Atheist, Apostate, Secular Person or Lukewarm Practitioner cannot be Israel. Gentiles Become Israel/Jew through Total Devotion to the Religion of the Elohim/God of Israel Losing their Gentile Identity. This what the Elohim/God of Israel has Revealed to me about Israel/Jew Identity.
Authority about "Who Is A Jew/Israel have defined.

Sorry, but I don't really know what you mean.

 

[metis]

Apparently some might feel the Talmud is equal to the Tanach (the Bible commonly known as the Old Testament). Not everyone believes that it is equal to the Tanach.

They are not equal as the Talmud deals with commentaries on the Tanakh, items dealing with Jewish law, and many other ideas.

 

[YoursTrue]

They are not equal as the Talmud deals with commentaries on the Tanakh, items dealing with Jewish law, and many other ideas.

All I can say in reference to that is that once I went to a library and looked up the Talmud to see what it contained. I see it was a recounting of opinions by rabbis. I know there are two Talmuds. I'm glad I know what I know about the Bible. And how to understand it. Very glad.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

We are always talking about Genetics/DNA/Blood because we know that those professing themselves to be Jews/Israel has made Genetics/DNA/Blood the Dominant Factor. Genetics is just another word for Biological/Racial Inheritance.

No this is absolutely not the case. If you took a DNA test and went before a Jewish tribunal and said, "This shows I have Jewish DNA. Does this make me a Jew?" you will hear an unequivocal NO.

AGAIN, knowledge of genetics did not even exist until the early 20th century. It was completely unknown when Jewish law was formed. Thus, it has absolutely no place in the discussion of who is a Jew.

Judaism: Who Is A Jew?

by Rebecca Weiner

Nation and Culture

Judaism is a religion as well as a nation and culture. Approximately 14.7 million people worldwide identify as Jewish, with the vast majority living in either the United States or Israel.

Jews come in all shapes, sizes, ethnicities, and nationalities. There are black Jews from Ethiopia, Chinese Jews from Shanghai and Indian Jews. There are Jews from Morocco and Iran, Jews from South America and Oceania. The practices and beliefs held by Jews range from those who openly identify as Orthodox and strictly observe ancient precepts to those that have nothing to do with the religion or culture.

Today, Judaism is comprised of four major movements: Orthodox, Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionist. Most Israelis are often described as “secular,” but the majority observe Jewish holidays and are very knowledgeable about Jewish history and culture, which is taught in public school. The Conservative and Reform movements are particularly strong in the United States but have yet to make significant inroads in Israel. Reconstructionism is a small and relatively new movement. Orthodoxy has grown in recent years in the United States and remains the strongest movement in Israel. The Orthodox, more so than the other movements, are also divided among different sects.

The Jewish movements have different interpretations of the Torah, which lead to different rituals, spiritual practices and beliefs. The diversity of beliefs and practices has led to different definitions of “Who is a Jew.” This question is not just philosophical, it has political and legal ramifications. In Israel, questions of Jewishness have implications for immigration, conversion, marriage, divorce, and the allocation of government money.

Who Is A Jew?

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

This is GREAT stuff. However, the author says nothing about DNA/genetics/blood.

There are so many, many things that science has recently revealed that we simply take for granted. It is very difficult for us not to think of it as common sense, very difficult for us to understand that for most of human history they thought quite differently. Consider that 200 years ago people would say, "It was a witch casting a spell that made the thunder storm," when we today know that humans have nothing to do with the weather.

In the same way, if you go back just 250 years, there was NO knowledge of genetics. You have, for example, the story in Genesis of how Jacob increased the number of piebald sheep in his flock by stripping branches so that they had white stripes and putting them into the trough so that the sheep would see them and thus give birth to sheep that were piebald. We understand today that this is nonsense -- what we view with our eyes has absolutely no effect on the genetics of our offspring.

So let's not take modern scientific understanding and impute it to peoples of the past. The Jewish determination that Jewish identity is due to the mother being a Jew or a person converting has nothing to do with genetics.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

@IndigoChild5559 has been taught that Jews/Israel are determined by the Mothers Genes

I just uploaded a long post on this to you, but just to reiterate, NO, it has nothing to do with the mother's GENES. The concept of Genes was unknown when Jewish law was formed. Consider that a woman convert does not have any "Jewish genes." Yet the children of the woman convert are Jews.

 

[John D. Brey]

You have not provided the evidence asked for, and both @IndigoChild5559 and I were/are into Judaism for decades, and I also taught it but never ran across your claim.

In Rabbi Lawrence Hoffman's book, Covenant of Blood, p. 72, he gives a numbered account of all the Hebrew phrases (translated into English)
recited at a typical bris milah. Number 66-67 say:

Master of the Universe, may it be your will that this be considered by you ---and thus accepted as according to your will ---as if I had sacrificed him before your throne of glory.​

Likewise, in the ArtScroll Mesorah Series, Bris Milah, they also give a detailed account of the entire ceremony where we read:

ישמח . . .ברמיך חיי ---Rejoice . . . Because of your blood you shall live. The parents are encouraged to rejoice at this occasion even though their infant has experienced some discomfort. For even though there was some blood at the bris, God has already reassured his nation that because of this blood they will merit life (R' David Cohen). . . ברמיך חיי . . .ברמיך חיי ---Because of your blood you shall live . . . because of your blood you shall live. The double reference to blood refers to the two mitzvos, milah and the Pesach offering, that God commanded the Jewish people to perform in order to merit redemption from Egypt.​

The blood of circumcision is clearly taught, and noted in the language of the ritual itself, to represent redemption and salvation. Unless the blood of circumcision is reckoned a singularly unique fluid able to purify and redeem what's cleansed by it, it is, otherwise, parallel to all other sacrificial blood. Furthermore, in dozens of references throughout Jewish writing, the blood of circumcision is paralleled with the blood of the Paschal lamb so that it's difficult not to acknowledge that a sacrifice is taking place in order to obtain the redeeming blood. There's no sacrifice in the entire Tanakh, in the entire system of Judaism, whereby the redeeming blood is obtain while the sacrifice remains alive. -----Ergo, the phallus, whose blood is sacrificial, redeeming, is either eliminated/sacrificed (at least ritually/symbolically), or else, it dies (ala all other sacrifices) and is then resurrected?

Abraham, and the flesh of the foreskin of Ishmael his son, as it is said, "In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son" (Gen. 17:26). "In the selfsame day" (means) in the might of the sun at midday. Not only that, but (it indicates) the tenth day of the month, the Day of Atonement. It is written in connection with the Day of Atonement, "Ye shall do no manner of work on that selfsame day, for it is a day of atonement" (Lev. 23:28); and in the present instance the text says, "In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised" (Gen. 17:26). Know then that on the Day of Atonement Abraham our father was circumcised. Every year the Holy One, blessed be He, sees the blood of our father Abraham's circumcision, and He forgives all the sins of Israel, as it is said, "For on this day shall atonement be made for you, to cleanse you" (Lev. 16:30). In that place where Abraham was circumcised and his blood remained, there the altar was built, and therefore, "And all the blood thereof shall he pour out at the base of the altar" (Lev. 4:30). (It says also), "I said unto thee, In thy blood, live; yea, I said unto thee, In thy blood, live" (Ezek. 16:6).​

​

Pirkei de Rabbi Eliezer, 29:2.​

​

The Israelites took the blood of the covenant of circumcision, and they put (it) upon the lintel of their houses, and when the Holy One, blessed be He, passed over to plague the Egyptians, He saw the blood of the covenant of circumcision upon the lintel of their houses and the blood of the Paschal lamb, He was filled || with compassion on Israel, as it is said, "And when I passed by thee, and saw thee weltering in thy (twofold) blood, I said unto thee, In thy (twofold) blood, live; yea, I said unto thee, In thy (twofold) blood, live" (Ezek. 16:6). "In thy blood" is not written here, but in "thy (twofold) blood," with twofold blood, the blood of the covenant of circumcision and the blood of the Paschal lamb; therefore it is said, "I said unto thee, In thy (twofold) blood, live; yea, I said unto thee, In thy (twofold) blood, live.​

​

Ibid. 22:11.​

​

Why did God protect them through blood? So that He should remember in their favour the blood of Abraham's circumcision. On account of two kinds of blood were Israel redeemed from Egypt---the blood of the Passover [lamb] and the blood of circumcision, as it says, And I said unto thee: In thy bloods, live; yea, I said unto thee: In thy bloods, live (Ezek. xvi, 6)---viz. AND STRIKE THE LINTEL---through the merit of Abraham, AND THE TWO SIDE--POSTS . . ..​

​

Midrash Rabbah, Exodus, Bo, XVII, 3.​

​

It is written: Take a bundle of hyssop and dip it in the blood that is in the basin and touch [some of the blood that is in the basin] to the lintel and to the two doorposts (Exodus 12:22). Why a bundle of hyssop? In order to exterminate the impure spirit and to display on their doors, in these three places, complete faith---one here, one there, and the one between them. Therefore, YHVH will pass over the entrance and will not allow the Destroyer to enter your houses to strike (ibid., 23)---because he sees the Holy Name marked on the door. . . There were two bloods: one of circumcision and one of the Paschal Lamb.​

​

The Zohar, Bo, 2:36a.​

​

Another interpretation: Because of Thy righteous ordinances, because of the judgments which Thou didst bring upon the Egyptians and the righteousness which Thou wroughtest with our forefathers in Egypt, for they possessed no virtues or good deeds to justify their redemption, but Thou didst give them two commandments with which they should occupy themselves and be redeemed, and these are the blood of the Paschal lamb and the blood of circumcision. R. Levi said: In that night the two bloods mingled, as it is said, And when I passed by thee, and saw thee wallowing in thy blood, I said unto thee: In thy bloods, live; yea, I said unto thee: In thy bloods, live (Ezek. xvi, 6).

Midrash Rabbah, Ruth, VI, 1.​

​

John

 

[John D. Brey]

Some people say that Judaism goes by matrilineal descent because we always know who a person’s mother is, and we don’t always know who a person’s father is. However, a person’s status as a priest, Levite, or Israelite is passed down from the father, and such distinctions were of utmost importance in biblical and Rabbinic times (and still, to a certain degree, today). If priesthood can be passed down via one’s father, why not Jewish identity?​

​

My Jewish Learning.​

As noted earlier in the thread, Judaism makes a profound distinction between a Jewish father's firstborn lanahalah לנחלה, versus a Jewish mother's firstborn ben lakohen ב׳ לכהן. The Hebrew word describing a father's firstborn ---- lanahalah לנחלה----- speaks literally of "inheritance of property," such that the Jewish father transfers temporal property to his sons (the firstborn getting a double portion of the father's tangible property), while, ironically, the Hebrew word describing the mother's firstborn ----ben lakohen ב׳ לכהן---- speaks, literally, of the "son of the priesthood," since "kohen" כהל is the word for priesthood. The mother's firstborn is a priest such that if the firstborn male has a Jewish mother he must be purchased out of the service to the temple-priesthood, which redemption from the priesthood is done symbolically/ritually even today by the ritual of pidyon haben פדיון הבן.

But why is the mother's firstborn related the the priesthood לכהן when the right to be a priest is inherited through the father? Shouldn't that make the father's firstborn the "son of the priesthood" ben lakohen ב׳ לכהן? Similarly odd, as noted in the essay quoted above (from My Jewish Learning), why, if the priesthood is inherited from the father, is Jewish identity inherited from the mother? If possessions and right to the priesthood are inherited from the father, then why wouldn't Jewish identity be inherited from the father too.

Naturally, the system revealed in the Jewish laws of inheritance separates earthly possessions, even the right to the priesthood, from Jewish identity, which (Jewish identity) is thus not reckoned an earthly possession that can be transferred by a father. This doesn't answer the question why only earthly possessions can be transferred by the father, while something not considered an earthly possession, Jewish identity, must be inherited from a mother alone?

Some people say that Judaism goes by matrilineal descent because we always know who a person’s mother is, and we don’t always know who a person’s father is. However, a person’s status as a priest, Levite, or Israelite is passed down from the father, and such distinctions were of utmost importance in biblical and Rabbinic times (and still, to a certain degree, today). If priesthood can be passed down via one’s father, why not Jewish identity?​

​

My Jewish Learning.​

The thorny question posed by the last sentence of the quotation from My Jewish Learning gets stuck in the craw of anyone vaguely familiar with all the theological characters involved in the oddity of the question. Nevertheless, the oddity of Jewish identity being passed singularly through the Jewish mother's womb has a simple, logically and theologically correct solution, if we follow the unleavened breadcrumbs where they lead.

First, prior to the golden calf fiasco at Horeb, the Jewish priesthood was supposed to pass on to every Jewish mother's firstborn בכור לכהן regardless of whom the father is (as Jewish identity is treated even today). Prior to Israel's fall at Horeb, the priesthood and Jewish identity we're treated as identical (the firstborn בכור was a priest כהן) such that the Jewish mother's firstborn בכור לכהן "opened the womb" (was the peter rechem פטר רחם) that Rabbi Hirsch zero's in on in his study of these things. Rabbi Hirsch is painfully clear that the "womb opener" פטר רחם does something that none of the other offspring of the mother can do (i.e., open the womb) and that his doing so somehow sanctifies the womb, making it Jewish, so that whomever passes through it after him is Jewish for having come from a womb that was previously opened by a peter rechem.

With that said, it becomes evident (and Rabbi Hirsch notes this) that we have something of a problem since, if, and its important to emphasize once again that Rabbi Hirsch deals with this directly, the firstborn turns the mother's womb into a Jew-producing factory of sorts (Rabbi Hirsch is clear that this is true to some extent), i.e., his birth makes the "Jewish" birth of his brothers and sisters possible, then we need something (and Hirsch realizes this) specific, recognizable, and acknowledgeable, about the birth of the "firstborn" בכור which, unique concerning his birth, can be understood to be the archetype, prototype, the prototypical mechanism, for making a Jewish mother's offspring all Jewish (rather than non-Jewish)?

This cross-examination of Jewish identity (so to say), can only be perfectly logical, perfectly theological, by one remarkable maneuver. We must recognized that not only does the פטר רחם (peter rechem) pre-seed his Jewish brother's and sisters in a manner such that their Jewish identity relies on, requires, him, but, as a perfect and flawless system of logical rationales, his birth, the manner and mechanism of his birth, must retroactively transform his mother into a "Jewish" mother such that the Jewish firstborn is the first "born" Jew whose birth, the nature and mechanism of it, with emphasis on "opening the womb," retroactively justifies the truth that his mother is Jewish. The firstborn son makes the mother Jewish rather than the mother making the firstborn son Jewish. Or stated in a more acceptable manner, the nature of the birth of the firstborn, his "opening the womb," signifies, retroactively, that he came from a Jewish mother (therein justifying, retroactively, her as a Jewish mother). The possibility of his birth, the nature of his birth (with emphasis on "opening the womb"), is part and parcel of the possibility, the existence, of a "Jewish mother."



John

 

[YoursTrue]

They are not equal as the Talmud deals with commentaries on the Tanakh, items dealing with Jewish law, and many other ideas.

Anyway, the temple has not been rebuilt in Jerusalem, in fact the books of the Bible do not discuss the destruction of the temple as having happened. The form of worship prescribed for the Jews when Jesus was alive cannot be practiced today except by interpretation and extension of the concept. And, yes -- different interpretations of what constitutes a Jew or Israel by the various factions.

 

[John D. Brey]

​

This cross-examination of Jewish identity (so to say), can only be perfectly logical, perfectly theological, by one remarkable maneuver. We must recognized that not only does the פטר רחם (peter rechem) pre-seed his Jewish brother's and sisters in a manner such that their Jewish identity relies on, requires, him, but, as a perfect and flawless system of logical rationales, his birth, the manner and mechanism of his birth, must retroactively transform his mother into a "Jewish" mother such that the Jewish firstborn is the first "born" Jew whose birth, the nature and mechanism of it, with emphasis on "opening the womb," retroactively justifies the truth that his mother is Jewish. The firstborn son makes the mother Jewish rather than the mother making the firstborn son Jewish. Or stated in a more acceptable manner, the nature of the birth of the firstborn, his "opening the womb," signifies, retroactively, that he came from a Jewish mother (therein justifying, retroactively, her as a Jewish mother). The possibility of his birth, the nature of his birth (with emphasis on "opening the womb"), is part and parcel of the possibility, the existence, of a "Jewish mother."

With the huge emphasis placed on "opening the womb" as the key to how the first born Jew authenticates his mother's Jewish-ness, it's important to note that Jewish law itself recognizes everything that's been said (and vice versa) such that in Jewish law, if a mother's firstborn son is born of a c-section (such that he doesn't literally "open the womb") then he doesn't qualify, by Jewish law, as a Jewish firstborn; he's not a peter rechem פטר רחם, and thus not a בכור לכהן.

Secondarily, but of equal importance, if the firstborn child is a female, rather than a male, then that mother can no longer birth, ever, a peter rechem פטר רחם. This is important since it signifies that the firstborn female, by coming out of the womb before the firstborn male, signifies that that womb is no longer hermetically, or hymenally, sealed, as it must be for the unique birth whereby a Jewish male opens a hymen, with his hand, rather than the other organ addressed by the word yad יד in the Tanakh (i.e., a father's fathering-organ).

Everything in Jewish law can be made to make perfect sense simply by taking the law, and the symbols, literally. The first born Jew must be born of a virgin pregnancy so that he can be, literally, historically, scripturally, a peter rechem פטר רחם, a true womb opener, abel, with nails in his hand, to transform all who come after him into sons and daughter of the Abrahamic covenant.

Jesus, of a necessity, opened the hymenally sealed womb of his mother with the nails in his hand signifying him as the first actual, rather than ritual, peter rechem פטר רחם. Then, ironically, with nail holes in his hand, he opened the hymen of the morgue, the Jewish kittel, and was seen alive on the other side of that veil, signifying his ability to say no to the angel of death associated with every birth conceived by the fleshly organ created (Genesis 2:21) in the image of the angel of death.

By opening the womb of his mother, Jesus signifies that he isn't fathered by the flesh created in the image of the serpent in the garden, the bringer of death, the organ that opened every womb prior to every birth prior to Jesus' unique conception whereby, not having been conceived by the flesh created in that god's image, he's able to say no when that god places him in the grave he's prepared for all his sons and daughters. That god, and the grave he's prepared for all he fathers, wasn't able, that god or that grave, to contain Jesus by reason of the fact that Jesus is the true firstborn of the true first Jew, who, is ha-adam prior to Genesis 2:21-22.



John

 

[Elihoenai]

Sorry, but I don't really know what you mean.

Genesis 12:1-3

12 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Deuteronomy 26:5

5 And thou shalt speak and say before the Lord thy God, A Syrian ready to perish was my father, and he went down into Egypt, and sojourned there with a few, and became there a nation, great, mighty, and populous:

 

[Elihoenai]

No this is absolutely not the case. If you took a DNA test and went before a Jewish tribunal and said, "This shows I have Jewish DNA. Does this make me a Jew?" you will hear an unequivocal NO.

AGAIN, knowledge of genetics did not even exist until the early 20th century. It was completely unknown when Jewish law was formed. Thus, it has absolutely no place in the discussion of who is a Jew.

Not that it's relevant to me, nobody can prove that they have Jewish/Israel DNA. There is not Genetic Material from Abraham, Jacob or Isaac to compare with. Extracting and Analysing DNA, as you have said, is a recent invention. Biological/Genetic/Blood Inheritance from parent to child has been since the first parents Adam and Eve.

Are you saying that a Female Gentile that Fully Converts to Jew/Israel and than Becomes an Atheist and having a Child as an Atheist that Child is a Jew/Israel?

This is GREAT stuff. However, the author says nothing about DNA/genetics/blood.

There are so many, many things that science has recently revealed that we simply take for granted. It is very difficult for us not to think of it as common sense, very difficult for us to understand that for most of human history they thought quite differently. Consider that 200 years ago people would say, "It was a witch casting a spell that made the thunder storm," when we today know that humans have nothing to do with the weather.

In the same way, if you go back just 250 years, there was NO knowledge of genetics. You have, for example, the story in Genesis of how Jacob increased the number of piebald sheep in his flock by stripping branches so that they had white stripes and putting them into the trough so that the sheep would see them and thus give birth to sheep that were piebald. We understand today that this is nonsense -- what we view with our eyes has absolutely no effect on the genetics of our offspring.

So let's not take modern scientific understanding and impute it to peoples of the past. The Jewish determination that Jewish identity is due to the mother being a Jew or a person converting has nothing to do with genetics.

Genetics just means Biological Inheritance from parents to Child and from the first parents Adam and Eve this Genetics/Biological Inheritance was observable with the eyes and recording Genealogies.

Don't you believe that Elohim/God worked Spiritual Power through Moses to Deliver from the Egyptians? Are you saying that the story about Jacob in the Hebrew Scriptures is nonsense? Don't you believe Shaman's can control the weather? In Ancient Days the Religious Practitioners had Much More Power Being Closer to Elohim/God. Christian Gnostics Return to the Ancient of Days.

 

[Elihoenai]

I just uploaded a long post on this to you, but just to reiterate, NO, it has nothing to do with the mother's GENES. The concept of Genes was unknown when Jewish law was formed. Consider that a woman convert does not have any "Jewish genes." Yet the children of the woman convert are Jews.

I asked this question in the previous post: What if a Gentile Fully Converts to Jew/Israel and than later Becomes Atheist having a Child as an Atheist, is that Child a Jew/Israel?

Another question: A Female Gentile that Fully Converts to Jew/Israel and has a Child while a Full Convert is that Child Jew/Israel by reason of the Womb of the mother?

 

[metis]

In Rabbi Lawrence Hoffman's book, Covenant of Blood, p. 72, he gives a numbered account of all the Hebrew phrases (translated into English)
recited at a typical bris milah. Number 66-67 say:

Master of the Universe, may it be your will that this be considered by you ---and thus accepted as according to your will ---as if I had sacrificed him before your throne of glory.​

Likewise, in the ArtScroll Mesorah Series, Bris Milah, they also give a detailed account of the entire ceremony where we read:

ישמח . . .ברמיך חיי ---Rejoice . . . Because of your blood you shall live. The parents are encouraged to rejoice at this occasion even though their infant has experienced some discomfort. For even though there was some blood at the bris, God has already reassured his nation that because of this blood they will merit life (R' David Cohen). . . ברמיך חיי . . .ברמיך חיי ---Because of your blood you shall live . . . because of your blood you shall live. The double reference to blood refers to the two mitzvos, milah and the Pesach offering, that God commanded the Jewish people to perform in order to merit redemption from Egypt.​

The blood of circumcision is clearly taught, and noted in the language of the ritual itself, to represent redemption and salvation. Unless the blood of circumcision is reckoned a singularly unique fluid able to purify and redeem what's cleansed by it, it is, otherwise, parallel to all other sacrificial blood. Furthermore, in dozens of references throughout Jewish writing, the blood of circumcision is paralleled with the blood of the Paschal lamb so that it's difficult not to acknowledge that a sacrifice is taking place in order to obtain the redeeming blood. There's no sacrifice in the entire Tanakh, in the entire system of Judaism, whereby the redeeming blood is obtain while the sacrifice remains alive. -----Ergo, the phallus, whose blood is sacrificial, redeeming, is either eliminated/sacrificed (at least ritually/symbolically), or else, it dies (ala all other sacrifices) and is then resurrected?

Abraham, and the flesh of the foreskin of Ishmael his son, as it is said, "In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son" (Gen. 17:26). "In the selfsame day" (means) in the might of the sun at midday. Not only that, but (it indicates) the tenth day of the month, the Day of Atonement. It is written in connection with the Day of Atonement, "Ye shall do no manner of work on that selfsame day, for it is a day of atonement" (Lev. 23:28); and in the present instance the text says, "In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised" (Gen. 17:26). Know then that on the Day of Atonement Abraham our father was circumcised. Every year the Holy One, blessed be He, sees the blood of our father Abraham's circumcision, and He forgives all the sins of Israel, as it is said, "For on this day shall atonement be made for you, to cleanse you" (Lev. 16:30). In that place where Abraham was circumcised and his blood remained, there the altar was built, and therefore, "And all the blood thereof shall he pour out at the base of the altar" (Lev. 4:30). (It says also), "I said unto thee, In thy blood, live; yea, I said unto thee, In thy blood, live" (Ezek. 16:6).​

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Pirkei de Rabbi Eliezer, 29:2.​

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The Israelites took the blood of the covenant of circumcision, and they put (it) upon the lintel of their houses, and when the Holy One, blessed be He, passed over to plague the Egyptians, He saw the blood of the covenant of circumcision upon the lintel of their houses and the blood of the Paschal lamb, He was filled || with compassion on Israel, as it is said, "And when I passed by thee, and saw thee weltering in thy (twofold) blood, I said unto thee, In thy (twofold) blood, live; yea, I said unto thee, In thy (twofold) blood, live" (Ezek. 16:6). "In thy blood" is not written here, but in "thy (twofold) blood," with twofold blood, the blood of the covenant of circumcision and the blood of the Paschal lamb; therefore it is said, "I said unto thee, In thy (twofold) blood, live; yea, I said unto thee, In thy (twofold) blood, live.​

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Ibid. 22:11.​

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Why did God protect them through blood? So that He should remember in their favour the blood of Abraham's circumcision. On account of two kinds of blood were Israel redeemed from Egypt---the blood of the Passover [lamb] and the blood of circumcision, as it says, And I said unto thee: In thy bloods, live; yea, I said unto thee: In thy bloods, live (Ezek. xvi, 6)---viz. AND STRIKE THE LINTEL---through the merit of Abraham, AND THE TWO SIDE--POSTS . . ..​

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Midrash Rabbah, Exodus, Bo, XVII, 3.​

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It is written: Take a bundle of hyssop and dip it in the blood that is in the basin and touch [some of the blood that is in the basin] to the lintel and to the two doorposts (Exodus 12:22). Why a bundle of hyssop? In order to exterminate the impure spirit and to display on their doors, in these three places, complete faith---one here, one there, and the one between them. Therefore, YHVH will pass over the entrance and will not allow the Destroyer to enter your houses to strike (ibid., 23)---because he sees the Holy Name marked on the door. . . There were two bloods: one of circumcision and one of the Paschal Lamb.​

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The Zohar, Bo, 2:36a.​

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Another interpretation: Because of Thy righteous ordinances, because of the judgments which Thou didst bring upon the Egyptians and the righteousness which Thou wroughtest with our forefathers in Egypt, for they possessed no virtues or good deeds to justify their redemption, but Thou didst give them two commandments with which they should occupy themselves and be redeemed, and these are the blood of the Paschal lamb and the blood of circumcision. R. Levi said: In that night the two bloods mingled, as it is said, And when I passed by thee, and saw thee wallowing in thy blood, I said unto thee: In thy bloods, live; yea, I said unto thee: In thy bloods, live (Ezek. xvi, 6).​

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Midrash Rabbah, Ruth, VI, 1.​

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John

That goes with what we've been saying, not you.

 

[YoursTrue]

Genesis 12:1-3

12 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth beI blessed.

Deuteronomy 26:5

5 And thou shalt speak and say before the Lord thy God, A Syrian ready to perish was my father, and he went down into Egypt, and sojourned there with a few, and became there a nation, great, mighty, and populous:

It is clear to me that the Almighty God was the God of the (fleshly) nation of Israel which agreed to observe and obey the covenant Moses made with those escapees from Egypt. He punished when He wanted and blessed when He wanted.

 

[John D. Brey]

That goes with what we've been saying, not you.

Amen. Then we're on the same sheet of music. Which lends itself to what would be a stupendous study comparing the blood of the limb and the blood of the lamb; with the proviso that they're both understood to represent redeeming sacrifices. How does the limb (yesod) compare with the Paschal lamb? What's the parallels such that so many Jewish sages long to compare them in word and in deed?



John

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I asked this question in the previous post: What if a Gentile Fully Converts to Jew/Israel and than later Becomes Atheist having a Child as an Atheist, is that Child a Jew/Israel?

I believe I did answer this. The answer is yes. Not only is her child a Jew (if she had the child after her conversion) but even if that child became an atheist, they would STILL be a Jew.

Another question: A Female Gentile that Fully Converts to Jew/Israel and has a Child while a Full Convert is that Child Jew/Israel by reason of the Womb of the mother?

Okay this is harder, because the English is so bad, so I'm not sure what you are really asking. But the truth remains the same. If the mother is a convert, her child after her conversion is 100% Jew. I am not an expert about the reasoning behind this ruling. But I only know what the law is, and that it is not based on genetics. Let me give you what I do know:

The Mishnah (Kiddushin 3:12) explicitly states that a child born to a Jewish mother is Jewish. The Shulchan Aruch affirms this.

There are mystical and spiritual reasons offered by various Jewish thinkers. Some argue that the spiritual essence or soul of a person is more directly influenced by the mother, thus justifying the matrilineal descent rule.

Practically speaking, in times of persecution and confusion, it was just easier to identify the mother of a child than the father. And of course, in cases of rape and adultery, one cannot be sure who the father is. Matrilineal descent provided a clear and consistent method of determining Jewish identity.