Who killed all those babies?

[WanderingSoul]

if something went wrong with human lives...God have all the credits...this is the only time they can even remember him...

try this verse where God said that human do things not in his way...

Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Well, you bring up a good point. God seems to get slammed for all the bad things, but all too often he is overlooked when things go right. I'm pretty sure that's what you intended to convey in your first line; and I'm sure many would agree.

But I would like to remind you of the biblical truth, that Jesus was God's emissary on earth, and was the crux of God's plan of salvation for humanity. Jesus' birth, life, and death was foreordained by God, knowing full well that Jesus' birth would result in a baby genocide, right?

So we are not just talking about God taking a bad rap for "things gone wrong" here. No God was the catalyst for that tragedy, not a passive observer.

Let me just ask, is God a baby killer?

 

[BigRed]

Oh, thanks for stalking...I mean following me to this new spot!

I think my previous response was something like, "Do you think that the NT version of Christ as a sacrifice for all is a fiction, or just that one part about God killing all those adorable babies?"

Somethings are true...some are not.

So what about the slaughter of the innocents? True or false?

BigRed

 

[outhouse]

I wonder then just how much of the Christ story IS a fiction? Don't Christians ever ask these questions?

All we know about jesus is that he was a traveling hellenistic teacher who was baptised and died on a cross killed by the romans and he became a martyr for openeing up the jewish religion to all so that pagans could be saved.

beyond that its all religious dogma in my opinion.


A great youtube or history channel presentation you should go and search for is "exodus" A jewish researching explains allot of the moses and other jewish myths

 

[WanderingSoul]

People of those times did not view infants and children the same way we do. At that time, they were considered property and a sign of wealth. Therefore, a modern equivalent would be taking away a personal piece of work, not killing babies.

For example, causing a corporation to go under, with the founders getting absolutely nothing for it.

I can appreciate your negative view of the ancients concerning the value of children, though I'm not sure I agree with it.

Anyway...

More importantly, do you think God felt the same way as those humans who thought so little of human life? Would it have been the case that God felt, "Ya know, they don't give a darn about their own kids, so why should I? I could do this Jesus thing without causing a baby genocide, but I'm busy this week."

I'm facetiously making my point, of course, but I think it's a point worth making.

 

[JustWondering]

People of those times did not view infants and children the same way we do. At that time, they were considered property and a sign of wealth. Therefore, a modern equivalent would be taking away a personal piece of work, not killing babies.

For example, causing a corporation to go under, with the founders getting absolutely nothing for it.

You're saying people didn't love their kids?

 

[openyourmind]

These actions are of man's selfishness. Harod was told if jesus' coming as a warning. A message of change or judgement will be brought on you. God put his faith in the heart of man only to be rejected by the selfish mind of that man. I don't think god can see the future if he could that means he made each of us to live and die just as he chose. God gives us a choice in all we do. He is very smart and has a feeling what we might choose. But, he is so loveing of man he will not strike us before we have actually sinned.

 

[WanderingSoul]

All we know about jesus is that he was a traveling hellenistic teacher who was baptised and died on a cross killed by the romans and he became a martyr for openeing up the jewish religion to all so that pagans could be saved.

beyond that its all religious dogma in my opinion.


A great youtube or history channel presentation you should go and search for is "exodus" A jewish researching explains allot of the moses and other jewish myths

I notice you said, "All WE know about Jesus..." I'm curious to know who you were talking for. At the other end of the spectrum are those who believe Jesus was a revelation of God, for the salvation of mankind from their sinful depravation. I wish someone who held that belief could answer my question; that is, why did the Christian God feel it necessary to cause a baby genocide, just so his "savior" could be born?

 

[Heneni]

The killing of hebrew kids during the time of Herod was not the only time the Isreali kiddies were under threat.

In the book of Exodus Pharoah tried to kill hebrew baby boys by trying to solicit hebrew midwives:

Exodus 1:15 The king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, whose names were Shiphrah and Puah, When you help the Hebrew women in childbirth and observe them on the delivery stool, if it is a boy, kill him; but if it is a girl, let her live.

When the hebrew women did not comply Pharoah turned to his own people and said this:

Exodus 1:22 Then Pharaoh gave this order to all his people: "Every boy that is born you must throw into the Nile, but let every girl live."

Pharoah like Herod had their own personal agenda when they tried to or succeeded in killing babies.

God had an agenda too. His was righteous theirs were not.

I know that is hard for you to swallow

 

[WanderingSoul]

These actions are of man's selfishness. Harod was told if jesus' coming as a warning. A message of change or judgement will be brought on you. God put his faith in the heart of man only to be rejected by the selfish mind of that man. I don't think god can see the future if he could that means he made each of us to live and die just as he chose. God gives us a choice in all we do. He is very smart and has a feeling what we might choose. But, he is so loveing of man he will not strike us before we have actually sinned.

So you are saying that God is not responsible because God was rejected by the selfish mind of man. Moreover, even though God is smart, he cannot see the future. You also state that God is so loving that he will not strike us until "we have actually sinned."

Interesting...

Let me ask a question in regard to your last remark: Did those babies "actually sin."? Are you telling me that those babies were bigger sinners than the murderous Herod who took their lives? Really, who would even dare call a baby a sinner?

Sorry, you lost me on that one.

Now, if those babies died because God was rejected by the selfish mind of man, as you suggest, then god would have known that outcome, at least if we stay biblical here. You aren't going to make me look up all those omniscient/omnipotent passages in the bible are you? According to the bible, God is not merely "smart" (to use your word), but is a God for which nothing is impossible, and who knows everything.

No, I think you offer a very weak "argument" in defense of the Christian God. If Jesus was born of God, then God is morally responsible for the death of those babies, I say.

 

[WanderingSoul]

The killing of hebrew kids during the time of Herod was not the only time the Isreali kiddies were under threat.

In the book of Exodus Pharoah tried to kill hebrew baby boys by trying to solicit hebrew midwives:

Exodus 1:15 The king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, whose names were Shiphrah and Puah, When you help the Hebrew women in childbirth and observe them on the delivery stool, if it is a boy, kill him; but if it is a girl, let her live.

When the hebrew women did not comply Pharoah turned to his own people and said this:

Exodus 1:22 Then Pharaoh gave this order to all his people: "Every boy that is born you must throw into the Nile, but let every girl live."

Pharoah like Herod had their own personal agenda when they tried to or succeeded in killing babies.

God had an agenda too. His was righteous theirs were not.

I know that is hard for you to swallow

Sorry, I'm not sure I get you. This smells a lot like a red herring to me. I'm not questioning that there have been evil killers in history. I'm talking about God's moral responsibility with protecting those cute little babies that were slaughtered because his "savior" had to be born into the world. There's no doubt to me, the biblical God knew that tragedy was going to happen; there are tons of verses that prove God's omniscience and omnipotence.

God's "agenda" may have been "righteous," as you say, but did he have to act like a killer to do so?

 

[WanderingSoul]

Your whole persective is wrong. Try looking at it from God's point of view.

Seriously, Sandy, you know I can't do that. All I can do is look into the divinely inspired word of God. And it is clear to me that those babies had to die as a result of Christ's birth. If I am right, then that makes both Christ and his God baby killers, right?

Cripes, you mean, God wasn't crafty enough to outsmart that fox, Herod? You're kidding me, right?

 

[openyourmind]

So you are saying that God is not responsible because God was rejected by the selfish mind of man. Moreover, even though God is smart, he cannot see the future. You also state that God is so loving that he will not strike us until "we have actually sinned."

Interesting...

Let me ask a question in regard to your last remark: Did those babies "actually sin."? Are you telling me that those babies were bigger sinners than the murderous Herod who took their lives? Really, who would even dare call a baby a sinner?

Sorry, you lost me on that one.

Now, if those babies died because God was rejected by the selfish mind of man, as you suggest, then god would have known that outcome, at least if we stay biblical here. You aren't going to make me look up all those passages in the bible are you? According to the bible, God is not merely "smart" (to use your word), but is a God for which nothing is impossible, and who knows everything.

No, I think you offer a very weak "argument" in defense of the Christian God. If Jesus was born of God, then God is morally responsible for the death of those babies, I say.

I didn't say the babies were sinners at all. They were unjustliy murdered by the hands of man. God didn't come down and kill them the phaoroh's men did.

You talk of biblical text of omniscient/omnipotent. No, I don't need you to look those passages up. I am well aware of them. But, I would like you to look up what those two words actually mean. If you find a source that says seer of the future please provide me with that. Don't allow yourself to be fooled by mistranslation or misinturpreted information.

 

[WanderingSoul]

I didn't say the babies were sinners at all. They were unjustliy murdered by the hands of man. God didn't come down and kill them the phaoroh's men did.

You talk of biblical text of omniscient/omnipotent. No, I don't need you to look those passages up. I am well aware of them. But, I would like you to look up what those two words actually mean. If you find a source that says seer of the future please provide me with that. Don't allow yourself to be fooled by mistranslation or misinturpreted information.

True, those babies were unjustly murdered by the hand of man, with God's foreknowledge and blessing. Like I said, those babies died because God's "savior" was born. I feel that God then is morally responsible for their deaths, because he knew and allowed it, and so CAUSED their death. Just like if you know that an action by you would result in the death of another, yet you do nothing, you probably are legally and morally responsible. How much more then should God be held responsible for the death of those babies, with him being so smart and all.

What does omnisicent and omnipotent mean?

Oh, C'mon, are you going to bog this discussion with questions like that? There are plenty of passages that qualify those terms, right there in the bible and independent of any secular definition. If I thought it were imperative to the discussion, I would take the time to look them up; but really, I see no need. If you can't concede the point, then I'm not sure our discussion would bear any fruit anyway.

 

[openyourmind]

If that is you is your take you are welcome to it. But, no where in my bible does it say he knows the future. I can say with an easy heart this crime is not of the hand of god. You have offered me no proof.

 

[openyourmind]

I find it funny that you continue to ask why god and blame him. So I ask this, Why did a pharoah kill all those babies, what was he so scared of? If God was a person you could go against and win then why didn't the pharoah chose to let the kids live? Whole lot of fear for something so small, oh well believe what you want to believe.

 

[Riverwolf]

I can appreciate your negative view of the ancients concerning the value of children, though I'm not sure I agree with it.

Anyway...

More importantly, do you think God felt the same way as those humans who thought so little of human life? Would it have been the case that God felt, "Ya know, they don't give a darn about their own kids, so why should I? I could do this Jesus thing without causing a baby genocide, but I'm busy this week."

I'm facetiously making my point, of course, but I think it's a point worth making.

I think it's definitely one worth bringing up. However, the only answer that I can give is I don't know. If a God separate from the universe exists (which, while I don't believe in, is what the Bible teaches), I won't pretend to know His/Her/It's mind.

 

[Riverwolf]

You're saying people didn't love their kids?

Where did I say or imply that?

By my modern example, does the founder of a corporation not love his company? Heck, do we not love that which we consider our property?

 

[Father Heathen]

I'm pretty sure that God can do whatever He wants... So choosing to go the route of killing babies doesn't make much sense to me when he could just snap his fingers and save us all.

This is the underlying problem of most theistic religions; they portray god as some sort of erratic, inconsistent, impractical and inefficient Rube Goldberg machine. A Rube Goldberg machine that thirsts for blood, that is.

 

[openyourmind]

This is the underlying problem of most theistic religions; they portray god as some sort of erratic, inconsistent, impractical and inefficient Rube Goldberg machine. A Rube Goldberg machine that thirsts for blood, that is.

I will have to say I agree.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Your whole persective is wrong. Try looking at it from God's point of view.

Seriously, Sandy, you know I can't do that. All I can do is look into the divinely inspired word of God.

And you cannot get God's perpective from that?