metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
"Religious bigotry" is not name-calling. If I had called you a "religious bigot" THAT would have been name-calling.
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WHO IS GOD'S TRUE ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT?
- Thread starter 3rdAngel
- Start date
"Religious bigotry" is not name-calling. If I had called you a "religious bigot" THAT would have been name-calling.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Scripture is defined in 2 Timothy 3:16 as being inspired by God or God breathed through men. That is God gives His Word to men to give to the world in spoken and written form. That is the bibles definition of what sin is. The new testament scriptures teach that Jesus is God and Gods son and our creator. To see that the new testament is not scripture (inspired by God) is simply not telling the truth and is a falsehood.
As posted earlier, I do not use scripture to condemn you. According to the scriptures, we are already condemned by going against the scriptures that are in disagreement with us (see John 3:36; Hebrews 11:6; Matthew 7:21-23; 1 John 2:3-4)
Pretty much the whole of the bible is in disagreement with sin and unbelief. (e.g. John 3:36; 1 John 2:3-4; Matthew 7:21-23; Romans 3:9; Romans 3:19-20; Romans 3:23; Romans 6:23; Ezekiel 18:4; Psalm 145:20; Psalm 101:8; Psalms 37:9-11;Proverbs 14:11; Psalm 37:38; Psalm 92:7;Psalms 94:23; Proverbs 13:13; Proverbs 10:29; Hosea 7:13; Philippians 1:28; Philippians 3:19; 2 Peter 2:3; 2 Peter 2:12; 2 Peter 3:7; Jude 1:10; 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 etc etc etc) If you need some more scripture let me know.
It is not bearing false witness by being honest with you and by telling you the truth. It is being loving to you as my neighbor to let you know your walking in the path the bible teaches is a path of sin and death in disagreement with God and His Word. As posted earlier, I do not use scripture to condemn you. According to the scriptures, we are already condemned by going against the scriptures that are in disagreement with us (see John 3:36; Hebrews 11:6; Matthew 7:21-23; 1 John 2:3-4). There is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed come judgement day.
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3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Then do not misuse scripture. This is why you do not believe in God.
Well that is not true. You claim to not believe in God. This is sin according to the scriptures (Romans 14:23). Have you ever told a lie in your life?
If we continue in our sins and unbelief and judgement day comes it will be too late to show you anything.
I did not break any rules and did not make any false accusations.
As posted earlier, I do not use scripture to condemn you. According to the scriptures, we are already condemned by going against the scriptures that are in disagreement with us (see John 3:36; Hebrews 11:6; Matthew 7:21-23; 1 John 2:3-4)
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Please forgive me but I do not believe you. You can call me all the names you like. When I see you name calling and being unable to address the posts and the scriptures in disagreement with you it just brings to mind the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:11. Your words do not matter to me. I am only trying to help you here. As posted earlier they called Jesus of the devil too and His followers a cult. Just because someone calls another person a name does not make it true. According to the scriptures, there is only one way to heaven - John 14:6. If we do not believe and follow Gods Word we are all still lost in our sins and unbelief and apart of the many that were called but not of the few that were Gods chosen that Jesus says depart from me you who work sin I never knew you. (see Matthew 7:13-26). If you build your house on the sand great will be the fall of it and forever too late if you do not rebuild it on the rock you have chosen to reject.
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Funny guy. You tell me not to use scripture and then 'why you do not believe in god'
As if you are telling me what to do.
And then lie again
I am reading yours and it's disgusting
You have shown me, what it's like to be drunk on pride.
Too drunk on pride to even see the damage that you are doing
looks to me, like you are on a suicide mission.
All of that
and you do not address the simple question
Bthoth said:
Where is a single item by jesus that is in disagreement with me?
Yes .. it is somewhat priceless that this is your OP .. in which you opine
"According to the scriptures, the name "Israel" is only a name given by God to all those who choose to have faith in His Word"
That Israel is a name given by Lord YHWH to all those who chose to have faith in is word is simply false.
Scripture makes it clear that the Name Israel .. is the name of a People .. who descend from Jacob. Israel are the people allocated to YHWH according to scripture - Deut 32:8
8 When the EL - Elyon [l] gave the nations their inheritance,
when he divided up humankind,[m]
he set the boundaries of the peoples,
according to the number of the Sons of God[n]
9 For YHWH's allotment is his people,
Jacob is his special possession.[o]
So you see friend - you have things wrong wrong -- Lord YHWH's people ... his special allotment .. given to him by his Father EL is Israel. the EL in "Israel" being the name of the most high God of the patriarchs.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Sharing Gods Word that is in disagreement with you is not meant to be funny. It is a serious matter according to the scriptures. Our very life depends on us believing and obeying what Gods Word says.
It is not lying, being disgusting, drunk on pride or suicidal by sharing the scriptures with you that are in disagreement with you. The scriptures are the very definition of what is true and what is not true according to the bible (see Romans 3:4) and what gives those who believe them eternal life (see John 3:36). So sharing the scriptures with you that are in disagreement with you is being honest, and is what gives us life if we believe and obey them so they are also not suicidal. It is also not being drunk on pride by sharing scripture with you that might be in disagreement with you. That claim would point more to those who choose not to believe and obey Gods Word which is the very definition of what truth is.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Your response here...
Well that is not true. Your question was answered in the very post you were quoting from. If you bothered to read what was posted to you in the scriptures you would know this. Here let me re-post it again for you here.
Hope this is helpful. You are better off reading what you are responding to before posting.
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3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Priceless it is! We are in the new covenant now not the old covenant. According to the scriptures, the name "Israel" is only a name given by God to all those who choose to have faith in His Word. In the new covenant scriptures, I would like to pose that Gods true Israel in the new covenant are no longer those born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham (Romans 9:6-8; Romans 2:28-29 and Galatians 3:28-29) but are now all those who are born again of the Spirit of God through faith (see John 3:3-7; compare 1 John 3:4-10 and Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:1-4) into Gods new covenant promise (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27). Therefore, Gods Israel according to the scriptures in the new covenant are now all those who through faith believe and follow what Gods Word says and all believers both Jews and gentiles are all now one in Christ (Romans 10:11-13; Colossians 3:11) through faith in Gods Word. Gentile believers have been grafted in with Jewish believers (Romans 11:13-27). According to the scriptures, if we are not a part of Gods Israel in the new covenant then we have no part in God's new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12. God never made His new covenant with Gentiles (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27) but with believers regardless of their heritage.
According to the torah and new covenant scriptures the Messiah also represents God's true ISRAEL as an individual as it was applied to Jacob and as to those who also believe and follow God's Word. The Messiah (Jesus Christ) and his followers are Gods true Israel born of the Spirit of God, are the anti-type, the Israel in the flesh that is not the type as Jacob was or the nation of Israel born of the seen of Abraham. According to the scriptures, Jesus is Israel (Matthew 2:13-15, compare with Hosea 11:1; as are all his disciples all through time; Hebrews 2:13; Isaiah 8:16,18; John 13:33), the true "overcomer" (John 16:33; Revelation 3:21), the real "Prince" with God (Isaiah 9:6; Daniel 8:11,25, 9:25, 10:13,21, 11:22, 12:1; Acts 3:15, 5:31; Revelation 1:5), being Lord over His own house, whose house are we (Psalms 98:3; Hebrews 3:6; Jeremiah 31:33), who himself is the "elect" (Isaiah 42:1; Matthew 12:18; 1 Peter 2:6) of the Father, in whom all the promises of God find their realization (2 Corinthians 1:20). The promises made by God were all based upon condition (Exodus 19) see Matthew 2:13-15; Hosea 11:1; Jeremiah 31:33; Romans 9:6-8; Hebrews 2:13; Isaiah 8:16,18; John 13:33, 16:33, 17:12, 18:9, 21:5; 1 Corinthians 15:46; 2 Corinthians 1:20; Galatians 6:16; Hebrews 3:6, 8:8,10; Revelation 3:21
'Israel' "born after the flesh of the seed of Abraham", as an unbelieving 'nation', is left desolate (Matthew 23:38; Luke 13:35), to bear no more fruit ever again (Matthew 21:19), cursed, withered away (Mark 11:21), dried up from the roots (Mark 11:20), "twice dead" (Jude 1:12), and the axe already laid at their root (Matthew 3:10; Luke 3:9), cut down and to be thrown into the fire. The New [or Everlasting] Covenant is only made with the spiritual “Israel” (Jesus Christ, the "elect" of the Father; Isaiah 42:1; Matthew 12:18-20), this “Judah” (Revelation 5:5) and His “house” (2 Corinthians 1:20 - For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.; – for Christ Jesus, the true “Israel” is the “elect” of God, and thus all who choose to be in Him; see Isaiah 42:1, 45:4, 65:9) The new testament scriptures portray JESUS as the head and those who believe and follow his Word as the body *Ephesians 1:22; 4:15; 5:23; Colossians 1:18. God's ISRAEL are all those who believe and follow God's Word.
Need more scripture?
1. ORIGINS OF THE NAME ISRAEL IS OUTSIDE OF COVENANTS
2. GOD'S ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT SCRIPTURES ARE NOW ALL THOSE WHO BELIEVE AND OBEY GODS WORD
3. GENTILE BELIEVERS ARE NOW GRAFTED IN
You do err not knowing the scriptures. There seems to be a lot of it in disagreement with you here.
What is sad, is how you use the material to condemn a person.
Sure. the Wisdom of bible is good. Using it to condemn is horrible.
Then obey ' no false witness'.
What is against bible is using the material to condemn. That is how wars start and even schisms within the very applicants.
I could see many living longer by keeping the wisdom of bible. Just as history proves that the abusers end up destroyed.
The suicide is the arrogance and pride of using scripture to condemn.
You write all of that but then fail to obey the guidance.
Same waste of time.
Using scripture to condemn, is the most horrid use of scripture.
It's about like an inquisitor. They are now extinct but apparently that same arrogance and pride is now your chosen profession.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
As posted earlier, I do not use scripture to condemn you. According to the scriptures, we are already condemned by going against the scriptures that are in disagreement with us (see John 3:36; Hebrews 11:6; Matthew 7:21-23; 1 John 2:3-4). If you feel condemned by the scriptures shared with you then that is between you and God see John 12:47-48.
According to the scriptures we cannot obey Gods Word if we do not believe what Gods Word says. This is not bearing false witness to you it is called telling the truth as Gods Word (the scriptures) is the very definition of what truth is (see John 17:17; Romans 3:4).
According to the scriptures, it is not condemning someone by sharing scriptures with them. Condemnation comes from the scriptures though if the scriptures tell us to do something and we choose not to believe and obey them. According to the scriptures, we are already condemned by going against the scriptures that are in disagreement with us (see John 3:36; Hebrews 11:6; Matthew 7:21-23; 1 John 2:3-4). If you feel condemned by the scriptures shared with you then that is between you and God see John 12:47-48.
Sorry the bible does not teach this. The bible is a revelation of Gods salvation to mankind for sin and unbelief. Gods salvation is conditional on us believing and obeying what Gods Word says. If we choose not to believe and obey what Gods Word says then we are still in our sins and unbelief and will perish in them according to the scriptures see John 3:36; Matthew 7:13-23; Hebrews 10:26-31.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
No not at all. As posted earlier, The scriptures shared with you are not shared with you to condemn you but to correct your understanding of what the scriptures teach. According to the scriptures, we are already condemned by going against the scriptures that are in disagreement with us (see John 3:36; Hebrews 11:6; Matthew 7:21-23; 1 John 2:3-4). If you feel condemned by the scriptures shared with you then that is between you and God see John 12:47-48. Receive Gods Word and be blessed. Ignoring Gods Word does not make them disappear.
Cutting and pasting from snake charmer sites and posting a whole bunch of passages that do not support your claim. Why do you post so many passages when only one is required ?
NT passages have nothing to do with Lord YHWH in which the Israelites believed. The Israelites did not believe your claim that Israel refers to all those who have faith in Lord YHWH's word . The Israelites believed that the "True Israelites" were the group of people alotted to Lord YHWH by the Supreme God El - known as the Israelites.
Further - even the God of the NT was the same Lord YHWH depicted by the Israelites and from Scripture -- (a false assumption but let us humor the argument) Posting from the NT - does not resolve the problem. It just paste's over the problem as if it did not exist .. the problem that we have a God saying two different things. Which is why I asked you which God you are referring to as "God's True Israel"
If the True Israel are those who "have faith in the word of YHWH" - and 2) the NT is the word of YHWH then you have a real pickle on your hands as we don't know which word of YHWH to have faith in ?! and thus there is no way to tell who the true Israel is.
You can prove to yourself in scripture that you have no idea which sripture is the word of YHWH that you should have faith in to become part of the True Israel .. and thus you will never be part of the True Israel according to your prespective.
Tell me which words of God from YHWH that I should have faith in .. 1) do we slaughter innocent children for the sins of the Father .. or 2) Do we make a rule saying one person is not to be punished for the actions of another .. each according to their own sin.
Tell me the word of Lord YHWH to have faith in such that I can become one who is of Lord YHWH's/Gods true Israel.
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Then stop quoting scripture, if you have no use but to condemn.
I asked you, what specifically is against jesus but you have nothing. You use scriptures from OT, letters between church and anything to express condemnation but never in regarding me.
But you enjoy claiming, that since I do not accept the bible as by god, that the blanket condemnation is there.
Here is one that is about your method:15 `Wo to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye go round the sea and the dry land to make one proselyte, and whenever it may happen -- ye make him a son of gehenna twofold more than yourselves.
If anything, they are about you and the disbelief that keeping the rules of civility (the commandments) does not matter.
See my last line above. You are the one in disbelief as you do not keep the rule of no false witness and now completely rude with condemning me.
Your method is how hate is enabled and perhaps the damage that your church caused to you. The lack of belief and lack of civility.
Incorrect.
Here is matt 23:
27 `Wo to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye are like to whitewashed sepulchres, which outwardly indeed do appear beautiful, and within are full of bones of dead men, and of all uncleanness;
28 so also ye outwardly indeed do appear to men righteous, and within ye are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Then do not cut and paste your nonsense from your snake charmer.
Nonsense. The new testament scriptures come from the old testament scriptures. If you read everything in the OP (including the scriptures in the linked posts) you would see both old ant new testament scriptures are used to prove who Gods Israel is in the new covenant. Your application to here of who Israel is in the new covenant is not biblical and is unsupported by scripture.
Your problem is one invented in your own mind. You seem to make lots of claims and assumptions you are unable to prove. God is not saying two different things. It is your understanding and interpretation of the scriptures that has led you to the belief. That should be a red flag for you that perhaps what you believe and are teaching is in error.
There is no pickle and not problem. Now you made these claims about there being problems if YHWH of the old testament is the same as YHWH of the new testament how about you prove what you say. All I see in your post is you making claims of problems based on your understanding of the scriptures that are not in the scriptures. Looks like the pickle is still in your own hands. Please do not be dishonest here. The OP clearly shows through old and new testament scriptures who Gods true Israel in the new covenant are through the scriptures. According to the new covenant scriptures, Gods Israel in the new covenant are no longer those born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham (Romans 9:6-8; Romans 2:28-29 and Galatians 3:28-29) but are now all those who are born again of the Spirit of God through faith in Gods Word (see John 3:3-7; compare 1 John 3:4-10 and Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:1-4) into Gods new covenant promise (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27). Therefore, Gods Israel according to the scriptures in the new covenant are now all those who through faith believe and follow Gods Word and all believers both Jews and gentiles are all now one in Christ (Romans 10:11-13; Colossians 3:11). Gentile believers have been grafted in with Jewish believers (Romans 11:13-27). If we are not a part of Gods Israel in the new covenant we have no part in God's new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12. God never made His new covenant with Gentiles (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27). 'Israel' "born after the flesh of the seed of Abraham", as an unbelieving 'nation', is left desolate (Matthew 23:38; Luke 13:35), to bear no more fruit ever again (Matthew 21:19), cursed, withered away (Mark 11:21), dried up from the roots (Mark 11:20), "twice dead" (Jude 1:12), and the axe already laid at their root (Matthew 3:10; Luke 3:9), and the unbelieving branches are cut down and ready to be thrown into the fire (Romans 11:13-26) to perish forever more. The New [or Everlasting] Covenant is only made with Gods true “Israel” defined in the scriptures as all those who through faith have accepted the Messiah in Jesus and choose to believe and obey what Gods Word says. You do err not knowing the scriptures. This is why you are peddling false teachings here. Does that not worry you? It should.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
As posted earlier, I do not use scripture to condemn you. According to the scriptures, we are already condemned by going against the scriptures that are in disagreement with us (see John 3:36; Hebrews 11:6; Matthew 7:21-23; 1 John 2:3-4). If you feel condemned by the scriptures shared with you then that is between you and God see John 12:47-48.
I posted you many scriptures many time now to prove to you that it is sin not to believe and obey what Gods Word says and to break Gods commandments (e.g. 1 John 3:4; James 2:10-11; John 3:36) I also posted to many scriptures that show what happens to all those who choose not to believe and obey Gods Word here which includes pretty much the whole of the bible being in disagreement with sin and unbelief. (e.g. John 3:36; 1 John 2:3-4; Matthew 7:21-23; Romans 3:9; Romans 3:19-20; Romans 3:23; Romans 6:23; Ezekiel 18:4; Psalm 145:20; Psalm 101:8; Psalms 37:9-11;Proverbs 14:11; Psalm 37:38; Psalm 92:7;Psalms 94:23; Proverbs 13:13; Proverbs 10:29; Hosea 7:13; Philippians 1:28; Philippians 3:19; 2 Peter 2:3; 2 Peter 2:12; 2 Peter 3:7; Jude 1:10; 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 etc etc etc) If you need some more scripture let me know. Perhaps try reading what has already been shared with you before posting would be better.
This is only more evidence of you not reading what is posted to you. Look at the previous section. It is based on both old and new testament scriptures stating word for word that sin is defined in the scriptures as breaking Gods commandments and not believing what Gods Word says. As posted earlier, I do not use scripture to condemn you. According to the scriptures, we are already condemned by going against the scriptures that are in disagreement with us (see John 3:36; Hebrews 11:6; Matthew 7:21-23; 1 John 2:3-4). If you feel condemned by the scriptures shared with you then that is between you and God see John 12:47-48.
Your own words here testify you do not believe and obey what Gods Word says and are still in your sins according to the scriptures already shared with you. According to the scriptures, we are already condemned by going against the scriptures that are in disagreement with us if we do not believe and obey what Gods Word says (see John 3:36; Hebrews 11:6; Matthew 7:21-23; 1 John 2:3-4). If you feel condemned by the scriptures shared with you then that is between you and God see John 12:47-48.
Yet you are the one that is still in your sins and unbelief according to the scriptures that the bible teaches against? Your post here makes no sense.
You seem confused here. I believe and obey what Gods Word says. You have already claimed you do not believe and obey what Gods Word says which makes you an unbeliever in disagreement with the scriptures you feel condemned by. As posted earlier, I do not use scripture to condemn you. According to the scriptures, we are already condemned by going against the scriptures that are in disagreement with us (see John 3:36; Hebrews 11:6; Matthew 7:21-23; 1 John 2:3-4). If you feel condemned by the scriptures shared with you then that is between you and God see John 12:47-48.
Not at all. Is it loving or hating if someone is drunk and falls asleep in a railway track and a train is coming to run them over and kill them and you try and wake them up? If no one tries to wake that person up they will be run over by the coming train and die. Therefore it is loving to try and wake this person up or they will lose their life. Likewise Jesus is coming, according to the scriptures. If we continue in our sins and unbelief we will die in our sins and unbelief because we do not believe and obey His Word. Time to wake up. Ignoring Gods Word you feel condemned by does not make it disappear.
Look - and Listen - Try to understand, that the Israelites believed that the True Israel of Lord YHWH was Gods Chosen People = Them .. the Israelites .. as described in the book we call the Jewish Bible. The NT scripture .. is not telling us what the Israelites believed .. has absolutely no bearing on the Topic .. as the Israelites did not have the NT scripture .. nor did they believe what you claim. The Israelites believe people descended from Israel were the chosen people of YHWH .. and with Lord YHWH they had their covenant. You posting "Israel born after the flesh of the seed of Abraham as an unbeleiving nation" does not change this reality one iota. This scripture backs my position .. that Israel is from the seed .. not on the basis of belief in YHWH's word. That is two nails .. this is a crucified position you are trying to hold on to.
I am sorry but this is not a probem I invented in my own mind as you insist.. and this is not my problem at all . It is your problem that the Israelites did not believe your claim that the True Israel included the gentiles ..
and your claim that True Israel included people who believed the word of Lord YHWH is your second problem .. again completely your problem, having nothing to do with my perspective. The problem you have is that you don't know what faith in the word of Lord YHWH is.. because you don't know what the word of Lord YHWH is .. and nor does anyone else coming from your perspective .. thus neither you nor them .. are included those who have faith in the word of Lord YHWH.
Based on the plain reading of the Tanakh YHWH is one of the names for their God no one else's. They fought wars with other tribes opposing the beliefs in other Gods. The prophecies of the text refer to the promised Messianic King or Kings restore the Kingdom of Israel.