• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

WHO IS GOD'S TRUE ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT?

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Thank you, someone that reads the scriptures...

God bless
Thanks. God bless you, as well.

The thing is, this isn't anything different from what Christianity has traditionally taught. It's really weird how now it's considered controversial. In Christianity, there is one God and one people of God, and all need to accept Jesus Christ as Lord to be saved. So there's no room for Israel and the Church to be two different things, as if Jews don't need Jesus, too. Everyone is in the same boat now.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
That's correct. Chrsitians get to define who is Christian. Not Jews. Not Hindus. Not Atheists. And Jews get to define who is a Jew.
Actually that is also wrong. It is the scriptures that define who is Christian, who is a Jew, who is Gods true Israel. (see Romans 9:6-8; Romans 2:28-29; Galatians 3:28-29; Colossians 3:11; Romans 10:11-13; Ephesians 2:11-14; Romans 11:13-23).
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Actually that is also wrong. It is the scriptures that define who is Christian, who is a Jew, who is Gods true Israel. (see Romans 9:6-8; Romans 2:28-29; Galatians 3:28-29; Colossians 3:11; Romans 10:11-13; Ephesians 2:11-14; Romans 11:13-23).
No, Jewish law determines who is a jew. Your scriptures about it are of no import. Nice try.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
+
We cannot know God if we seek to know God through the eyes of the world that does not see God or know God or believe in Him. You cannot know God if you do not believe the scriptures that teach us how to find God
You assert a rather absolute statement that you cannot know God the way you know God based on your belief. Unfortunately there are many variable beliefs and different religions and their divisions that reach a different conclusion then what you believe.
Likewise the OP is one that is simply based on the scriptures. Because you do not know the scriptures you are unable to address this OP accept through the eyes of an unbeliever that does not know God or His Word (the scriptures).

My response is simply based on the scriptures. Of course my view is different, but yes it is based on the scriptures which I consider without provenance.
You will need to understand the difference between the old and new covenant scriptures, if you want to answer this OP

Take Care.
I have studied the scriptures for over 60 years, as wekk as the scriptures of the other major religions. You assertion that I do not believe or know the scriptures is simply based on your view that you disagree. I understand the claims of old and new covenants, but different interpretations can be proposed including the view that both are out of touch with the reality that the scriptures involved ae without provenance and reflect ancient tribal beliefs not relevant today
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
No, Jewish law determines who is a jew. Your scriptures about it are of no import. Nice try.
No trying needed. Sorry but according to the scriptures man-made teachings and tradition does not supersede the scriptures (see Matthew 15:3-9).
 
Last edited:

Endure

Member
You assert a rather absolute statement that you cannot know God the way you know God based on your belief. Unfortunately there are many variable beliefs and different religions and their divisions that reach a different conclusion then what you believe.
But if this is what you truly believe, then you have no foundation whatsoever to debate from. That means that your position holds no absolute authority either.
I have studied the scriptures for over 60 years, as wekk as the scriptures of the other major religions. You assertion that I do not believe or know the scriptures is simply based on your view that you disagree. I understand the claims of old and new covenants, but different interpretations can be proposed including the view that both are out of touch with the reality that the scriptures involved ae without provenance and reflect ancient tribal beliefs not relevant today
Again, if you believe that there is no authoritative Bible/Scriptures, then nothing that you've studied for 60 years holds any foundational authority at all.

Your claim is that @3rdAngel's position is just one "interpretation" of many which are all simply relative, and that there is no absolute truth. Not only is that incorrect, but it places your claims in the same basket of being simply relative to the opinion of the beholder with no authoritative significance at all.

Personally, I believe the Bible is the final authority on all things and though there is a trend today to discredit the Bible in every way imaginable, God integrated multiple security measures into His word to combat these. The fact that the Bible, when understood in its entirety - from cover to cover, defines and validates itself is the main reason that those who TRULY know it well are justified by God Almighty in their conviction of its authority on all matters.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
But if this is what you truly believe, then you have no foundation whatsoever to debate from. That means that your position holds no absolute authority either.
From the human perspective I do not believe there is an absolute authority. The variable and conflicting claims of absolute authority among humans over time is evidence of this view and problem,

I have foundations first in scientific, archaeological and historical academics concerning question of the scientific and historical reliability of scriptures.

I believe in God in harmony with science and religion. I am a Baha'i which believes in Progressive Revelation and not any absolute 'Truth' authority from the human perspective. I remain skeptical of all human beliefs, because of the limited fallible nature of humans. Any claims of authority evolves over time as humanity evolves spiritually.


Again, if you believe that there is no authoritative Bible/Scriptures, then nothing that you've studied for 60 years holds any foundational authority at all.

As far as what is authoritative Scriptures. You have Jewish, Christian, Islamic, Hindu, Buddhist and many variable claims in the divisions of these and other religions variable claims, which one is 'True' from the human perspective?
Your claim is that @3rdAngel's position is just one "interpretation" of many which are all simply relative, and that there is no absolute truth. Not only is that incorrect, but it places your claims in the same basket of being simply relative to the opinion of the beholder with no authoritative significance at all.
By the facts of the reality of many diverse and conflicting belief is indeed one of many, and that is likely an understatement.
Personally, I believe the Bible is the final authority on all things
Yes, that is what you believe, and it is also on of many variable and conflicting beliefs what is the final authority on all things,


and though there is a trend today to discredit the Bible in every way imaginable,
I believe there is religious opposition to the Bible as much as Christian opposition to other scriptures like the Quran, and Jewish opposition to the NT and the Christian interpretation of the Torah. Jews discredit the NT and Quran, and the Christians discredit the Quran. Nothing new in history of these religions.

academic archaeology and history do justifiably question the historical validity of the scriptures such as the Pentateuch. This type of criticism is valid, because it was compiled after 600 BCE with no provenance in ancient history, and in conflict with the evidence of the history it records.

God integrated multiple security measures into His word to combat these. The fact that the Bible, when understood in its entirety - from cover to cover, defines and validates itself is the main reason that those who TRULY know it well are justified by God Almighty in their conviction of its authority on all matters.
I do not believe that any scripture can validate itself without outside evidence to confirm the text. This is mot relevant on historical claims.
 
Last edited:

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
+

You assert a rather absolute statement that you cannot know God the way you know God based on your belief. Unfortunately there are many variable beliefs and different religions and their divisions that reach a different conclusion then what you believe.


My response is simply based on the scriptures. Of course my view is different, but yes it is based on the scriptures which I consider without provenance.

I have studied the scriptures for over 60 years, as wekk as the scriptures of the other major religions. You assertion that I do not believe or know the scriptures is simply based on your view that you disagree. I understand the claims of old and new covenants, but different interpretations can be proposed including the view that both are out of touch with the reality that the scriptures involved ae without provenance and reflect ancient tribal beliefs not relevant today
I did not make any assertions. I only posted what the scriptures teach and what the scriptures say word for word in support of this OP. What you have posted though is your assertion and belief unsupported by any scripture. This is a scripture discussion forum. You have not provided anything here in support of anything you have said so please forgive me if I do not believe you.

Take Care
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Romans 2:28 ?
Since you didn't quote it, I have no idea what you mean. But to repeat my point, Christianity (including its new testament) has absolutely nothing to say about being a Jew, just as Jewish texts cannot determine who is a Christian.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I did not make any assertions. I only posted what the scriptures teach and what the scriptures say word for word in support of this OP. What you have posted though is your assertion and belief unsupported by any scripture. This is a scripture discussion forum. You have not provided anything here in support of anything you have said so please forgive me if I do not believe you.

Take Care
I actually I did not assert that 'belief unsupported by any scripture.' My contention is that there are too many variable and conflicting interpretations for any one to be 'True' in any absolute sense as opposed to other interpretations and also conflicting scriptures.

I will not assert that any view is absolutely true or false. I seriously question the absoluteness of absolute and uncompromising claims based on ancient tribal scriptures. I seriously question the historicity pf the Pentateuch compiled after 600 BCE. In context in many threads I have supported my views and problems concerning the Bible and other scriptures with academic references,

Yes, this is a scripture discussion forum.

I doubt you will believe me as an authority, and I believe you should not.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
I actually I did not assert that 'belief unsupported by any scripture.' My contention is that there are too many variable and conflicting interpretations for any one to be 'True' in any absolute sense as opposed to other interpretations and also conflicting scriptures.

I will not assert that any view is absolutely true or false. I seriously question the absoluteness of absolute and uncompromising claims based on ancient tribal scriptures. I seriously question the historicity pf the Pentateuch compiled after 600 BCE. In context in many threads I have supported my views and problems concerning the Bible and other scriptures with academic references,

Yes, this is a scripture discussion forum.

I doubt you will believe me as an authority, and I believe you should not.
Well what I meant was that what you posted was unsupported by scripture and was in disagreement with the scriptures presented in this OP. I do believe that there are many interpretations of the scriptures and much are not true and is in contradiction to what the bible says. However, this does not mean that there is not a correct interpretation of the scriptures. In fact it is the scriptures themselves through the very words of Jesus in Matthew 24:24 that tell us the closer we come to the last days it will be more and more like this (false teachers). For me the bible is not an academic book and cannot be understood this way. It is the words of God and if God does not guide us and teach us we cannot know its meaning (see Isaiah 55:8-9; John 14:26; John 16:13).

Take Care.
 
Last edited:

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
IndigoChild5559 said: But to repeat my point, Christianity (including its new testament) has absolutely nothing to say about being a Jew, just as Jewish texts cannot determine who is a Christian.
Responded with
3rdAngel said: Sure it does. Please read the OP.. where the scriptures are posted out in full. You post is neither scriptural or factual. (see post # 3 linked)
You say...
You just keep telling yourself that :)
Sure why not? I only posted you saying there is no scriptures saying anything about being a Jew then provided a page of scripture in the link post above showing what the bible clearly states who a Jew is from the OP that is in disagreement with you. So it is you who has to keep telling yourself that there is no scripture right? You are deflecting.

Take care.
 

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Why would I believe the Quran is the Word of God. The torah already tells me its not true
Hello. Could you explain this part please? I may be misunderstanding your point here, but the Torah was written long before the Quran.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Hello. Could you explain this part please? I may be misunderstanding your point here, but the Torah was written long before the Quran.
Hi David nice to meet you. Probably this is not the right place for this discussion as it will be offtopic to this OP...feel free to DM me if you like but very simply, both Jews, Christians and Muslims all claim to believe the Torah. Islam claims its lineage from Abraham's son through Ishmael's side. These same scriptures all these religions claim to believe show that God never made His covenant promise to Abraham and the bond servant Hagar and their son Ishmael even when Abraham protested but God's covenant promise was made through Abraham, his true wife Sarah and God's promised son Isaac. This is the lineage where Israel came from and later Christianity. If you would like a more detailed study through the scriptures, please feel free to DM me.

Take Care.
 
Last edited:

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Well what I meant was that what you posted was unsupported by scripture and was in disagreement with the scriptures presented in this OP.

I do not claim my views are supported by scripture, and yes it is in disagreement with the OP. I challenge the relevance of scripture and the argument in the OP to the real world today. My challenge extends to the relevance of Judaism, Christianity and Islam to the future of our world based more on a more universal perspective of the whole history of humanity.

I do have interpretations of the ancient religions and cultures more figurative based on the context of the people and culture of the time in the progressive spiritual evolution of humanity.

I do believe that there are many interpretations of the scriptures and much are not true and is in contradiction to what the bible says. However, this does not mean that there is not a correct interpretation of the scriptures. In fact it is the scriptures themselves through the very words of Jesus in Matthew 24:24 that tell us the closer we come to the last days it will be more and more like this (false teachers). For me the bible is not an academic book and cannot be understood this way. It is the words of God and if God does not guide us and teach us we cannot know its meaning (see Isaiah 55:8-9; John 14:26; John 16:13).

The definition of what may be "false teachers" is subjective from the perspective how one interprets the scripture and there are many diverse conflicting versions even within Christianity including JW and Mormons. Muxh are not true? Again the different churches disagree and accuse others of "false teachers and "much that is not true.

Bold not in fact but in belief. I do not believe the scripture can justify itself except for those that believe. This also stands out in the discussion between the Jews and Christians. The Jews do not remotely believe in the New Covenant nor th bold above.

How could you present an argument, such as Jews. that do not believe in the scripture you cite as above.
Take Care.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Well what I meant was that what you posted was unsupported by scripture and was in disagreement with the scriptures presented in this OP.

I do not claim my views are supported by scripture, and yes it is in disagreement with the OP. I challenge the relevance of scripture and the argument in the OP to the real world today. My challenge extends to the relevance of Judaism, Christianity and Islam to the future of our world based more on a more universal perspective of the whole history of humanity.

I do have interpretations of the ancient religions and cultures more figurative based on the context of the people and culture of the time in the progressive spiritual evolution of humanity.

I do believe that there are many interpretations of the scriptures and much are not true and is in contradiction to what the bible says. However, this does not mean that there is not a correct interpretation of the scriptures. In fact it is the scriptures themselves through the very words of Jesus in Matthew 24:24 that tell us the closer we come to the last days it will be more and more like this (false teachers). For me the bible is not an academic book and cannot be understood this way. It is the words of God and if God does not guide us and teach us we cannot know its meaning (see Isaiah 55:8-9; John 14:26; John 16:13).
Agreed the Bible is not an academic book. It is an edited and redacted collection of narratives set in history.

The definition of what may be "false teachers" is subjective from the perspective how one interprets the scripture and there are many diverse conflicting versions even within Christianity including JW and Mormons. Muxh are not true? Again the different churches disagree and accuse others of "false teachers and "much that is not true.

Bold not in fact but in belief. I do not believe the scripture can justify itself except for those that believe. This also stands out in the discussion between the Jews and Christians. The Jews do not remotely believe in the New Covenant nor th bold above.

How could you present an argument, such as Jews. that do not believe in the scripture you cite as above.
Take Care.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
I do not claim my views are supported by scripture, and yes it is in disagreement with the OP.
Well then you have no argument for your view as this is a scripture discussion forum.
I challenge the relevance of scripture and the argument in the OP to the real world today. My challenge extends to the relevance of Judaism, Christianity and Islam to the future of our world based more on a more universal perspective of the whole history of humanity. I do have interpretations of the ancient religions and cultures more figurative based on the context of the people and culture of the time in the progressive spiritual evolution of humanity.
Scripture is very relevant as it is Gods word that outlines the fall of mankind and Gods plan of salvation to all those who are lost in their sins and unbelief standing guilty before God of sin and death. Your view is not universal. It is simply your opinion based on your finite knowledge of the teachings of the world which you choose to believe over the Word of God that was given to save us from our sins and that gives us the knowledge of good and evil.
The definition of what may be "false teachers" is subjective from the perspective how one interprets the scripture and there are many diverse conflicting versions even within Christianity including JW and Mormons. Muxh are not true? Again the different churches disagree and accuse others of "false teachers and "much that is not true.
Not really a false teacher is simply someone who teaches things that are false and not true. I am sure we both would agree on this. Regardless, just because someone might be teachings something that is not true does not mean that what someone else teaches is not true. Likewise, just because there is many different conflicting versions of Christianity does not mean that there is not a true version of Christianity. As it is written in the scriptures that in the last days "There shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." (Matthew 24:24) and again "Many are called but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14) and again "Enter in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads to life, and few there be that find it." (Matthew 7:13-14) and again "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works? Then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:21-23). Fact is what these scriptures are saying is that the majority of different versions of Christianity will be lost!
Bold not in fact but in belief. I do not believe the scripture can justify itself except for those that believe. This also stands out in the discussion between the Jews and Christians. The Jews do not remotely believe in the New Covenant nor th bold above. How could you present an argument, such as Jews. that do not believe in the scripture you cite as above.
As posted earlier your argument is one of unbelief. So not really relevant to this OP and also has no basis in understanding what is true and what is not true or if there is a God or no God. Either way you cannot prove the scriptures are not Gods Word or that there is no God. For me, what you believe does not effect my faith in God and His Word as I already know God is real and have no doubt and have met him in my life. So there is absolutely nothing you can say to convince me otherwise. I use to be an Atheist by the way.

Take Care.
 
Top