Who forbade to mix Religion and Science?

[dianaiad]

Do you actually believe in Sodom and Gomorrah and the flood etc?

What...that there was a world wide flood?

Probably not. Regional? Sure. There are too many flood narratives from too many cultures...and too much evidence for floods, tsunamis, etc., to decide that catastrophic floods have NOT happened to people, and have buried those events into cultural narratives.

As to Sodom and Gomorrah? That there were cities which were destroyed in some major event? Yeah, there's too much evidence recently discovered of cities that were burned...that the evidence of some possibly meteoric event was responsible. Those cities are basically in the same area where history has put Sodom and Gomorrah.

I don't have a problem with it. Given the meteor strikes we do know about, such as tunguska, all those videos of the strike in Russia recently, the Arizona meteor crater...we KNOW that this stuff happens. Why not to a couple of cities?

I mean, really. You don't see the point I'm making here?

Tell me: if the story of Sodom and Gomorrah were NOT in the Bible, would you be so convinced that there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE that the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah exist, or that they were destroyed by some violent meteor strike? Would you be so determined that it is utterly impossible that these cities exist...or ever did exist?

Tell me: if there were no native American narratives explaining the scab lands, would you be so determined that it is utterly impossible that those native Americans a: had such narratives, b: could have actually been right about what caused them?

But that's what is happening.

And I find that just as utterly biased and stupid as biblical literalists who absolutely INSIST that anything that seems to contradict Genesis is to be completely and utterly ignored.

 

[sooda]

What...that there was a world wide flood?

Probably not. Regional? Sure. There are too many flood narratives from too many cultures...and too much evidence for floods, tsunamis, etc., to decide that catastrophic floods have NOT happened to people, and have buried those events into cultural narratives.

As to Sodom and Gomorrah? That there were cities which were destroyed in some major event? Yeah, there's too much evidence recently discovered of cities that were burned...that the evidence of some possibly meteoric event was responsible. Those cities are basically in the same area where history has put Sodom and Gomorrah.

I don't have a problem with it. Given the meteor strikes we do know about, such as tunguska, all those videos of the strike in Russia recently, the Arizona meteor crater...we KNOW that this stuff happens. Why not to a couple of cities?

I mean, really. You don't see the point I'm making here?

Tell me: if the story of Sodom and Gomorrah were NOT in the Bible, would you be so convinced that there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE that the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah exist, or that they were destroyed by some violent meteor strike? Would you be so determined that it is utterly impossible that these cities exist...or ever did exist?

Tell me: if there were no native American narratives explaining the scab lands, would you be so determined that it is utterly impossible that those native Americans a: had such narratives, b: could have actually been right about what caused them?

But that's what is happening.

And I find that just as utterly biased and stupid as biblical literalists who absolutely INSIST that anything that seems to contradict Genesis is to be completely and utterly ignored.

Then we agree that there was no worldwide flood. That's a start.

Tel Hammam in Jordan is considered to be a possible site for one of the cities of the plain.. according to Steve Collins.

And there are 4 ancient wadis that lead to the Dead Sea so at some point the landscape must have been different, but I think it must have been tens of thousands of years before Abraham.

 

[dianaiad]

Then we agree that there was no worldwide flood. That's a start.

Tel Hammam in Jordan is considered to be a possible site for one of the cities of the plain.. according to Steve Collins.

And there are 4 ancient wadis that lead to the Dead Sea so at some point the landscape must have been different, but I think it must have been tens of thousands of years before Abraham.

(sigh)

So?

Are you afraid, as many other scientists are, that if ANYTHING in a mythological/cultural narrative is true, that it ALL must be?

Or that if you can point to anything WRONG or inaccurate about a cultural narrative (read, 'mythology'), that NONE of it can be true?

Good grief.

 

[ecco]

ecco said: ↑
Please show what Native American story there is about the scablands being the result of ancient floods.

Oh, for the love of...

The Innuits have one. The Blackfeet have one.

Am I just supposed to take your word for this? Show me the stories from reliable sources.

 

[sooda]

(sigh)

So?

Are you afraid, as many other scientists are, that if ANYTHING in a mythological/cultural narrative is true, that it ALL must be?

Or that if you can point to anything WRONG or inaccurate about a cultural narrative (read, 'mythology'), that NONE of it can be true?

Good grief.

You mean about Sodom and Gomorrah. I have been to the dead sea.. Its a hideous place.

 

[ecco]

Oh, for the love of...

The Innuits have one. The Blackfeet have one. the native Americans around Yellowstone have one...well, that one is about a flood averted because the people became righteous...there are quite a few flood myths in ancient American tribes, understandable given the sort of flooding that is natural on the Missouri, the Mississippi, the Snake and the Colombia, never mind the constant filling and catastrophic draining of Lake Bonneville (leaving the Great Salt Lake behind). Are you going to claim that there were no such stories?

My question was not about stories of localized flooding.

 

[ecco]

ecco said: ↑
Please show what Native American story there is about the scablands being the result of ancient floods.

Why? That's as silly as claiming that natural phenomena do not prompt mythology in any group of people. Given that mythology is often an attempt to explain misunderstood natural events, that would be extremely silly. I mean, really; is it even possible that there would be no flood stories in northern American native narratives? What...that they would all completely ignore such events?

All these words in a vain attempt to find an excuse to not address my post.

 

[ecco]

Except of course that BECAUSE the idea would SEEM to support a catastrophic flood (and hence MIGHT support the world wide flood narrative, though of course it doesn't) then nobody looked for such a source. That source was, for all intents and purposes, found accidentally. Those who would actually LOOK for it were treated like the lookers for Bigfoot. Credibility killer.

Wrong again. That water source was not found by accident. A few minutes of research on your part would have prevented you from making such an uninformed comment.

[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channeled_Scablands"]Channeled Scablands - Wikipedia[/URL]
J.T. Pardee first suggested in 1925 to Bretz that the draining of a glacial lake could account for flows of the magnitude needed. Pardee continued his research over the next 30 years, collecting and analyzing evidence that eventually identified Lake Missoula as the source of the Missoula Floods and creator of the Channeled Scablands.​

 

[ecco]

The thing is, scientists shouldn't be afraid that evidence gathered MIGHT lead them into something that MIGHT support a theistic narrative.

They weren't. They were uncomfortable accepting a theory wherein a major factor, the massive amount of water, did not have a plausible source.

They probably would have had the same reaction if Marcion had won out and Christianity had dumped the OT.

 

[ecco]

In regards to the OP, I see those that did not want to mix science and religion, are those that wanted to, or still want to to, control specific ways of thinking.

Example?

 

[ecco]

Having the feds come in, steal your land and money and break up families, causing death, destruction, famine and poverty? THAT'S force.

I guess you believe the Government should have left the Branch Davidians to do their thing with no interference.

Jamestown might still be going strong if a couple of Congressmen hadn't gotten involved and caused all those deaths.

You probably think it was wrong for the Government to get involved with Warren Jeff's group.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

In regards to the OP, I see those that did not want to mix science and religion, are those that wanted to, or still want to to, control specific ways of thinking.

Example?

From a religion side, that would be those that cling to a 6000 year literal creation story.

From a science side, it would be those that state emphatically that God does not exist.

Regards Tony

 

[ecco]

You have out-dated information. Look, here is the actions of God in the Lab, which my papers do support mathematically (I am submitting the papers to top physics journals now).

I have a policy to not look at videos unless the poster has provided a very good description of what I am about to see.

On a lark, and against my better judgement, I watched your video.

Thank you for reminding me not to waste my time looking at videos that people post.

 

[ecco]

Following with my emphases...

One might think about the scab lands of eastern Washington, and how long it took scientists to get over their distaste of catastrophic geological events (such as floods) so that they could figure out that the ancient flood stories of the native Americans might be accounts of actual events;

Please show what Native American story there is about the scablands being the result of ancient floods.

OF COURSE native Americans didn't see the scablands form....that happened so long ago, so OF COURSE we don't have to pay any attention to flood narratives.

In one sentence you claimed that some ancient flood stories of the native Americans referred to the scab lands.

Are you now admitting that your comment was nonsense?

 

[ecco]

And the bible story about Sodom and Gomorrah...the reason behind their destruction...might be more about the 'why' and the moral lessons, but that doesn't mean that cities that might or might not be Sodom and Gomorrah were rather suddenly destroyed, does it?

Yet the controversy surrounding those cities still rages; and plenty of scientists still insist that those cities never existed; that the mere mention of them in the Bible is proof that they didn't.

Nonsense. Scientists and archaeologists do not claim that because cities, persons and events are in the Bible that that is proof that they don't exist.

However, since that is your considered opinion, it should be easy for you to show some actual references to support your assertion.

 

[ecco]

For scientists to decide that if religion talks about 'it,' then 'it' is wrong, never happened, doesn't count, shouldn't even be LOOKED at for what information is applicable?

Where do you get these ideas from? Archaeologists spent looking for any evidence for The Exodus. No one said they should not look. Their looking and not finding, however, provides evidence that Exodus is just another tale.

If they hadn't looked, the question would still be open.

No reputable scientist says DON'T LOOK. However, it is reasonable to come to conclusions. There is no reason to continue looking when all the evidence of past searches has come up empty unless new technologies could change the results.

 

[gnostic]

I don't get it. It's not as if those flood narratives have to be accepted AS factual creation stories; just that, oh, hey, this group of people has a story about an event, and this event seems to be referred to among many different peoples. Could such an event actually have happened, and imbedded itself in the culture? Doesn't mean that the event was caused by 'turtles all the way down.'

But y'all are so scared of looking at the mythology of any culture that y'all will determine that IF cultural mythology acknowledges such an event, then OF COURSE the event didn't happen, or didn't happen in any way similar to the narrative either in time or violence.

dianaiad, I am not scare off myths, I actually loved myths, I have always love a good storytelling. But that's the thing, myth is a story, based on their tradition, culture or religion. And usually they are highly embellished.

I have website - Timeless Myths devoted to myths from Greece, from Rome, from the Celts particularly the Irish and Welsh, and from Scandinavia.

I had another website, closed down, since I haven't been paying my webhosting and URL name, called Dark Mirrors of Heaven, that focused on alternative sources/texts to the Genesis creation story, like from the Apocrypha (books of Julibees and Enoch), from Rabbinic Haggadah and Midrash, from the Gnostic Nag Hammadi codices.

The thing is that I don't treat these stories as history or science.

Flood stories occur everywhere, and in many points in human history, but when myths don't have specific timeframes of these events, then they can't be treated as history.

What you can't do is compare scablands events to that of Native American myths, when there were no humans living in the continents at that time, especially in the channel of scablands, and like I have been saying, when there are no time frames in NA's myths.

 

[siti]

Well I think it was because he was intelligent.

You feel qualified to judge the intelligence of a Nobel laureate in physics? In any case, there is still no science in the quote you posted and there is still no science that indicates that a conscious mind is required to keep the universe working.

 

[sooda]

Great website.

Timeless Myths: Introduction

 

[dianaiad]

You mean about Sodom and Gomorrah. I have been to the dead sea.. Its a hideous place.

I've been to Death Valley. It is also a hideous place. Except during a super bloom in March. Then it is beyond belief beautiful.

And neither observation has anything to do with whether there was a Sodom and Gomorrah, or whether they were hit by meteorites or attacked by clever enemies or covered with 'Greek Fire' or whatever theory is coming down the pike.