Who forbade to mix Religion and Science?

[ecco]

I'm a bit tired of the insults, ecco.

I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints. I am not now, and have never been, FLDS. There is about as much in common between the two belief systems as there is between Catholicism and Four Square Evangelists. Less.

I am LDS. We do not practice polygamy. We haven't for considerably over a century and even when we DID, we weren't marrying 10 year olds off against their will.

What insults? I have not seen you state that you are against polygamy. I have not seen you state that you are opposed to arranged marriages. I do note that you dropped the age to 10 in your church's opposition to marrying children.

You also try to imply that there are only two branches of LDS. Apparently there are many.

I am firmly against the government meddling where it has no business meddling.

As am I.

Jeffs was tried and convicted for child abuse....but that wasn't the result of a raid. The raid you approve of happened considerably AFTER that,

What is your problem understanding plain English? I stated I was OK with Jeffs incarceration. I stated I was against the women and children being taken away.

and NOBODY IN THE COMPOUND WAS MARRYING OFF MINORS AGAINST THEIR WILLS. In fact, there were no 'under aged' married women in that compound.No child abuse. In fact, there was LESS child abuse in the FLDS compound, by a factor of about ten, than there is in the foster care system all those kids were shoved into. Texas tried very hard to claim there were underaged minors forced to marry, and that there was rampant child abuse, but there wasn't, and even the Texas courts finally had to put their feet down about it.

Uh huh...Nothing back then?...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/warren-jeffs-child-bride-horrors-mormon-sect-leader-elissa-wall-a8219246.html
News > World > Americas
Warren Jeffs: Child bride reveals horrors of life under fundamentalist Mormon sect leader
Elissa Wall suffered several miscarriages after cult leader her forced to marry cousin when she was 14
A former child bride who fled a fundamentalist Mormon cult has told how the sect’s leader reminded her she was “the property” of her husband after she begged him to free her from the forced marriage.

Elissa Wall suffered multiple miscarriages after being made to marry her cousin at the age of 14 under the polygamous Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

Now 31, she shed new light on life inside the isolated sect in a documentary about its domineering leader Warren Jeffs, who controlled all most every aspect of his 15,000 followers’ lives.​

...nothing now? Where are you getting your information?

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/warren-jeffs-flds-south-dakota-compound-788509/
FEBRUARY 1, 2019 6:40PM ET

Lawmakers Going After FLDS Polygamy Compound in South Dakota

Followers of Warren Jeffs’ former sect are living on a 140-acre compound where there have been no reported births or deaths for 14 years

By
AMELIA MCDONELL-PARRY

The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints compound near Pringle, South Dakota.

Chris Huber/Rapid City Journal/AP

Tucked in the remote Black Hills of South Dakota lies a 140-acre “military-style” fortress surrounded by a barbed wire fence, shielded by pine trees and guarded 24/7 by a lookout tower. Known as “R23,” the compound was established 14 years ago by members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (FLDS) — radical, polygamist offshoot of the Mormon Church — amidst a federal investigation into its leader, Warren Jeffs. Jeffs has since been convicted of child sexual assault and sentenced to life in prison, several other FLDS Church base camps have been seized by federal authorities, but R23 remains occupied — and shrouded in mystery.

...

According to their doctrine, polygamy is a requirement to gain entry to the kingdom of heaven, where large “plural” families have an especially high status. FLDS Church members don’t believe in birth control in any form, and officials are certain that there have been plenty of babies born at R23 over the last 14 years, but its occupants rarely emerge, let alone interact with residents in the nearest town, 20 miles away.
Officials say that the lack of records makes it difficult for local authorities to monitor the group for sex trafficking crimes in relation to the FLDS Church’s history of forcing underage girls to marry much older men. Unreported births have no government records — “they just don’t exist,” as Goodwin put it — and according to Allred, the Church denies women even basic documents like Social Security cards, making it all the more difficult for those who wish to flee.

“If a death occurs with this compound and it’s someone where there’s no tracking of the birth to begin with, and they cremate the body, I don’t know how anyone would ever know that,” Rep. Doug Barthel told the Daily Beast.

Barthel is one of the 13 members of the Judiciary Committee which passed the bill with a vote of 12-1. The lone outlier was Republican Rep. Tom Pischke, a self-described libertarian, who told the Daily Beast that he feared the bill was an attempt to “legislate morality.”

“If someone at this complex doesn’t register the birth of a baby or death of somebody, we’re basically going to give the authorities the right to do what could possibly be deemed an ‘unreasonable search and seizure’ of the entire complex,” Pischke told the Daily Beast.​

What you are saying, here...on top of insulting me and my belief system...is that it's OK to have the government knowingly take a fraudulent claim and raid a group of people because YOU DON"T LIKE THEIR BELIEFS, and don't approve of their lifestyle, even though it doesn't affect your own?

If your belief system includes forcing young girls to be betrothed to older men and if your belief system includes supporting polygamy and if your belief system includes defrauding the Government and if your belief system includes subjugating women to men, then your belief system deserves to be insulted and ridiculed. If it doesn't, then I have to wonder why you are upset about Government interference.

It isn't just about my beliefs, is it? It is about the laws that have been passed. I'm not in agreement with all laws on the books. But I am in favor of laws that protect young girls and women. I am in favor of laws that punish people who rip off the Government.

Also note, if a group of adults wants to join a UFO cult and commit suicide to move on to another world - I really don't care.

Uhmn.....I believe that the word best used here has nine letters and begins with an "h".

If you want to call me a hypocrite, do it.

 

[ecco]

In sum, you gave a list of three 'raids' that you approved of. One wasn't a raid at all, one was a mishandled, violent and horrific screw up by the government, and the third was a travesty; an overdone circus prompted by a fraudulent phone call that the state knew was fraudulent at the time.

If this sort of standard is something you consider 'good,' I think....I'm glad I'm old.

Here is my post on the subject:

I guess you believe the Government should have left the Branch Davidians to do their thing with no interference.

Jamestown might still be going strong if a couple of Congressmen hadn't gotten involved and caused all those deaths.

You probably think it was wrong for the Government to get involved with Warren Jeff's group.

And I think I"m going to talk to my children about becoming "Preppers."

The only surprising thing about that comment is that you haven't been doing it all along. Then again, perhaps you have.

Would you be prepping for a Massive Government Intrusion or would you be prepping for the Second Coming? In either case, here is a website to help you get a head start:

6 Odd Things Doomsday Preppers Stockpile (That Make Sense) | Cracked.com

However, a closer look at these lists reveals some of the weirder things they suggest you hoard aren't as crazy as you think. Maybe this underground bunker full of tinfoil hats will come in handy after all. For example ...​

 

[ecco]

OK....so these guys were committing fraud...food stamp fraud.

Your point is...what?

And an arrest for food stamp fraud.

Great googly moogly.

You do like selective reading, don't you? I post from three different articles from three different times. One part of one of the articles is about Food Stamp fraud. That's the part you choose to respond to. I guess the rest are is just too embarrassing to you.

 

[ecco]

I am telling you what actually happened, from gathering all the evidence, going through all the court cases, figuring out how did what to whom.

You keep saying a lot of things, but you provide evidence for none of it.

Do you suppose we should just accept your versions because you say you researched things?

 

[ecco]

Yes. Note the date on the NYT article.


Do try to find something from a little later than the day after the raid, hmmn?

OK

https://rapidcityjournal.com/news/local/lawmen-raid-flds-compounds-make-arrests/article_679c1122-86ce-509f-bbf7-71fb5b205625.html
FEATURED
Lawmen raid FLDS compounds, make 11 arrests​

• • Tom Griffith Journal staff
  ​
  • Feb 23, 2016

It's still happening.

 

[ecco]

ecco said: ↑​

Silly. I had to put it into the language of a four-year-old before you could comprehend what I had been saying all along.

Y'know, I haven't been personally insulting to you.

When I finally used the format...
This: Good
That: Bad
...you still did not understand what I was saying. That's not my fault. If you are insulted by my pointing that out, that's not my fault either.

I haven't made fun of your belief system.

I haven't made fun of your belief system. I find some of your beliefs like subjugating women tragic, not funny.

Or impugned your intelligence.

I never made any comments about your intelligence.

Or called you names.
You, however, can't seem to address me without doing that.

You cannot show anywhere that I impugned your intelligence or called you names.

However, you haven't condemned old men marrying underage girls. You haven't condemned polygamy. You haven't condemned a religious system that makes women subservient to men. You haven't condemned defrauding the Government.

Your attempt at another diversion is clear.

See ya

OK

 

[SugarOcean]

If "The idea that science and religion are at war with one another is actually fairly recent" is correct, why were two books written about it with the word "history" in the title?

I took the time to very briefly look at the first book. https://www.amazon.com/History-Conflict-Between-Religion-Science/dp/1503210022
The author refers back to Macedonia and the origins of Christianity. That seems to give lie to the "fairly recent" phrase in the PBS quote.

Wow.
You think you have a right to attempt to insult the intellect of dianaiad and you don't know the meaning of history or the context in publishing.

 

[dianaiad]

You keep saying a lot of things, but you provide evidence for none of it.

Do you suppose we should just accept your versions because you say you researched things?

Ecco, you keep responding with ad hominems and accusations.

I'm done with you.

 

[ecco]

The idea that science and religion are at war with one another is actually fairly recent. It really only arose in the last third of the nineteenth century, after the publication of Darwin's book on evolution.

I took the time to very briefly look at the first book. https://www.amazon.com/History-Conflict-Between-Religion-Science/dp/1503210022
The author refers back to Macedonia and the origins of Christianity. That seems to give lie to the "fairly recent" phrase in the PBS quote.

Wow.
You think you have a right to attempt to insult the intellect of dianaiad and you don't know the meaning of history or the context in publishing.

Insofar as this sub-thread is concerned, you and the author I cited made commentary as to when the conflict between science and religion began.

You: is actually fairly recent. It really only arose in the last third of the nineteenth century, after the publication of Darwin's book on evolution.

The author I cited: Macedonia and the origins of Christianity.

If you somehow believe that Macedonia and the origins of Christianity are something that took place "fairly recent. It really only arose in the last third of the nineteenth century, after the publication of Darwin's book on evolution." then I really don't know what to say.

You wanted to ride in on a white horse and come to the aid of dianaiad and criticize me. Yet your assertion about the beginnings of the conflict between science and religion is ludicrous and has nothing to support it. Quite the contrary, John Draper is quite clear that the conflict goes back thousands of years. Don't take my word for it, glance at the contents of the book available at Amazon. Of course, I suppose you could also question John Draper's intellect.

 

[ecco]

You keep saying a lot of things, but you provide evidence for none of it.

Do you suppose we should just accept your versions because you say you researched things?

Ecco, you keep responding with ad hominems and accusations.

I'm done with you.

So, unsupported assertions and a not so graceful exit. That's a pattern you tend to repeat.

Bye.

 

[Milton Platt]

The attempt to heal the old separation
between heart (faith) and mind (science).
Everyone has the right to choose.
But not a sinful choice! The God
of the Bible cursed those who chose
sin! Freedom is defined as action
within God's laws. That is why even ordinary
criminals are not free, but instead sit in prisons.

Newton's Theory, and therefore Einstein's Theory (as the successor of Newton) is fundamentally wrong, because they do not describe the movement of bodies in space. It is necessary to know at least something about Dark Matter and Dark Energy. However, Dark Energy and Dark Matter still contain neither energy as such nor matter. So should Newton have introduced the function of God into the laws?

Believer Isaac Newton introduced the second law: the acceleration of the body to its mass is equal to the physical force acting on the body: a m = F, and I give place to Free Will and God, inserting there spiritual force D, namely a m = F + D. Evidence, that spiritual force is not always equal to zero, is published by me in this peer-reviewed article: On the value of David Bohms Quantum Mechanics - IJSER Journal Publication The only problem is that the magazine prints everything the author pays for.

But you can write into the arXiv.org. They publish many articles on spiritual topics (enter in the search engine a spiritual words: God, angel, faith ...). However, since I am a person outside the system and without scientific connections, the moderators do not allow me into the arXiv.

Evidence of God and Free Will is the inevitable mixing of Religion and Science. Scientific search has not advanced at all in the understanding of God, since they do not even know the objective definition of this word “God”. And I proved God: only the All-Knowing can be confident in His reality, and not illusory. After all, the illusion of something is a violation of the Logic of Aristotle, and if a star in the Universe violates logic, then this casts doubt on the reality of the whole world. The All-Knowing knows about own existence, therefore the existence of God is a part of knowledge, and even its basis and definition: it was the God of Truth who, through talented men, founded science as the path to Himself.

In science, there must be Love in the sense that there should be no competitive enmity between scientists. If you don’t mix Religion and Science, then Love, Justice, Authority, Respect, Truth will not penetrate into Science. Pure science is alien to such concepts; and judging by its latest articles, Science came to Absolute Solipsism - the simplest “explanation” of reality: Lauren Tousignant, The universe shouldn’t exist, according to science, New York Post (October 25, 2017). But the Coral Castle of Edward Leedskalnin tells another story. The Unsolved Mystery makes us mix Religion and Science. But under the pressure of facts, Official Science retreats into Absolute Solipsism - the rejection of Reality and all things. But we must move in the opposite direction - towards Love and Truth in Person.

Nobody "forbade" it. If something in a religion conforms to reality, it is part of the natural world and is within the scientific realm to study. If it makes claims to the supernatural. then there is no good methodology to test the claims and they should not be accepted as true until they can be. science does not "reject" such religious claim. The evidence against or the lack of evidence for them does.

Definition of solipsism


: a theory holding that the self can know nothing but its own modifications and that the self is the only existent thingalso : extreme egocentrism

I don't see how this applies.......