I was in a conversation with the Jehovahs Witness, Pegg. I think that Pegg offered us an incredibly important historical principle when she suggested the following : People really need to understand what these terms meant to the people who wrote them down for us. Pegg # 25 (different thread)
I thought Peggs suggestion was very wise in terms of an approach to meaning of both words and concepts when we are trying to discuss what original and authentic Christians meant when they said and wrote their witnesses for their theology. I am saying this in the context of my recent experience with the Jehovahs Witness’ translation of the Bible. I noticed that the Jehovah’s Witness Bible quotes were so very different than most bibles I’ve read and so I bought one from a used book store and compare only a very few verses, some that were used in critical texts. I was very impressed that the text excluded some known errors such as the Johannine Comma and that it placed the woman caught in adultery on a separate level of textual credibility (since it is also know to be an unoriginal text in critical texts).
This pleasant surprise was replaced by huge disappointment with the many, many, many, incorrect translation of and rendering of the Koine greek. There were very many, very bizarre renderings that were not explainable by any textual variations that I've ever seen (I read critical texts almost exclusively). Also, the multiple quotes from the Jehovahs Witness Bible in conversations I’ve seen on the forum also were quite disorienting and did not reflect either masoretic or Septuagint of Old Testament, nor any known critical text in the New Testament.
This background information is what led me to wonder WHO created the Jehovahs Witness Bible and HOW was this Bible created for the consumption of readers. Thus, in the thread labeled : “John 1:18 the only begotten God" I started looking into this question.
1) Clear asked in post # 74 was : Another second question I now have is : “ Who is the individual (or individuals who created) the New World Translation? Your quotes from it contain so many small contextual and translational errors that I am interested in who it was that created it this text.
I think there is a reason that non-JW scholars are, in the main, unable or unwilling to use the NW Translation for historical discussions. There are too many translational mistakes that seem (to me) to be the result of forcing one’s theology into a text where the theology never existed. This disobedience to your own rule of understanding “what these terms meant to the people who wrote them down for us” creates a historical literary “dissonance” an obvious and forced disharmony of historical rules of speech and of historical religious principles that is doesn’t flow smoothly since it cannot smooth these “bumps” and inconsistencies in historical language or historical religious principles.
The translators are speaking from the context of Jehovahs Witness theology and not thinking about what the early Christians believed.
2) Clear re-asked in post # 78 : “I also asked WHO created the New World Translation of the bible (or what group of individuals created the text). What are their names and who are they? For example, anyone may look up Doug Moos’ group and see the names of the individuals who worked on the NIV. WHO created the New World Translation? “
3) Pegg answered in post # 79 : “it really doesnt matter who was involved in the translation of it... no one takes the credit for what rightfully belongs to God, do they? “
4) Clear responded in post # 82 : This is a strange and incorrect conclusion. It DOES matter who creates a bible and the processes by which translation is done and the accuracy of the final product. If you were a translator any ancient language, you would understand.
The ability to actually translate accurately from a dead language, accounting for historical nuances and subtle nuanced contexts, cannot BE done by uneducated individuals who have inadequate knowledge of language and historical usage of language and cultural nuances affecting the language anciently.
If the New World Bible was created by a few uneducated bible students with a koine dictionary over a coffee table, this process is very different to that of a scholarly group of historians and linguists that create a bible. There must be some reason that would explain the multitude of errors and inconsistencies and strange renderings that we see in the New World Translation.
Pegg, WHO created the New World Translation of the bible? If it was a group of individuals, give me names of these individuals so as to allow me to do even the most basic analysis of the type of translators and their qualifications and their historical background that went into the creation of this Bible. "
When I asked these Questions, I did not know who created this bible. I have since, looked up this information I asked for and was deeply bothered but ambivalent about this process. It both completely astonished me with disappointment regarding qualifications and process as well as answered my questions as to why the text was so strangely translated.
My initial information did come from non-Jehovahs Witness sites and two Jehovah Witness textual references. One one deeply confirming source was a prior board member of the Jehovahs Witness General Board who left the Jehovahs Witnesses.
Is there any Jehovahs Witness that has any justification for the source and manner of the creation of the jehovahs witness bible? I do not feel it is correct to dishonor anyones beliefs, but it does bother me to have a poster claim it is so very important to "use the bible" as a source and confirmation for theology, yet use this sort text to justify themselves as using a "bible".
If the question itself is bothersome and ANYONE feels that it should be placed into a different directory (debate, etc), then I am perfectly fine with that. I had just thought that discussing this question inside the Jehovahs Witness DIR would prevent completely dishonorable posts and allow the Jehovahs Witnesses to control the comments to some extent.
Thanks in advance for any information on this point.
Clear
I thought Peggs suggestion was very wise in terms of an approach to meaning of both words and concepts when we are trying to discuss what original and authentic Christians meant when they said and wrote their witnesses for their theology. I am saying this in the context of my recent experience with the Jehovahs Witness’ translation of the Bible. I noticed that the Jehovah’s Witness Bible quotes were so very different than most bibles I’ve read and so I bought one from a used book store and compare only a very few verses, some that were used in critical texts. I was very impressed that the text excluded some known errors such as the Johannine Comma and that it placed the woman caught in adultery on a separate level of textual credibility (since it is also know to be an unoriginal text in critical texts).
This pleasant surprise was replaced by huge disappointment with the many, many, many, incorrect translation of and rendering of the Koine greek. There were very many, very bizarre renderings that were not explainable by any textual variations that I've ever seen (I read critical texts almost exclusively). Also, the multiple quotes from the Jehovahs Witness Bible in conversations I’ve seen on the forum also were quite disorienting and did not reflect either masoretic or Septuagint of Old Testament, nor any known critical text in the New Testament.
This background information is what led me to wonder WHO created the Jehovahs Witness Bible and HOW was this Bible created for the consumption of readers. Thus, in the thread labeled : “John 1:18 the only begotten God" I started looking into this question.
1) Clear asked in post # 74 was : Another second question I now have is : “ Who is the individual (or individuals who created) the New World Translation? Your quotes from it contain so many small contextual and translational errors that I am interested in who it was that created it this text.
I think there is a reason that non-JW scholars are, in the main, unable or unwilling to use the NW Translation for historical discussions. There are too many translational mistakes that seem (to me) to be the result of forcing one’s theology into a text where the theology never existed. This disobedience to your own rule of understanding “what these terms meant to the people who wrote them down for us” creates a historical literary “dissonance” an obvious and forced disharmony of historical rules of speech and of historical religious principles that is doesn’t flow smoothly since it cannot smooth these “bumps” and inconsistencies in historical language or historical religious principles.
The translators are speaking from the context of Jehovahs Witness theology and not thinking about what the early Christians believed.
2) Clear re-asked in post # 78 : “I also asked WHO created the New World Translation of the bible (or what group of individuals created the text). What are their names and who are they? For example, anyone may look up Doug Moos’ group and see the names of the individuals who worked on the NIV. WHO created the New World Translation? “
3) Pegg answered in post # 79 : “it really doesnt matter who was involved in the translation of it... no one takes the credit for what rightfully belongs to God, do they? “
4) Clear responded in post # 82 : This is a strange and incorrect conclusion. It DOES matter who creates a bible and the processes by which translation is done and the accuracy of the final product. If you were a translator any ancient language, you would understand.
The ability to actually translate accurately from a dead language, accounting for historical nuances and subtle nuanced contexts, cannot BE done by uneducated individuals who have inadequate knowledge of language and historical usage of language and cultural nuances affecting the language anciently.
If the New World Bible was created by a few uneducated bible students with a koine dictionary over a coffee table, this process is very different to that of a scholarly group of historians and linguists that create a bible. There must be some reason that would explain the multitude of errors and inconsistencies and strange renderings that we see in the New World Translation.
Pegg, WHO created the New World Translation of the bible? If it was a group of individuals, give me names of these individuals so as to allow me to do even the most basic analysis of the type of translators and their qualifications and their historical background that went into the creation of this Bible. "
When I asked these Questions, I did not know who created this bible. I have since, looked up this information I asked for and was deeply bothered but ambivalent about this process. It both completely astonished me with disappointment regarding qualifications and process as well as answered my questions as to why the text was so strangely translated.
My initial information did come from non-Jehovahs Witness sites and two Jehovah Witness textual references. One one deeply confirming source was a prior board member of the Jehovahs Witness General Board who left the Jehovahs Witnesses.
Is there any Jehovahs Witness that has any justification for the source and manner of the creation of the jehovahs witness bible? I do not feel it is correct to dishonor anyones beliefs, but it does bother me to have a poster claim it is so very important to "use the bible" as a source and confirmation for theology, yet use this sort text to justify themselves as using a "bible".
If the question itself is bothersome and ANYONE feels that it should be placed into a different directory (debate, etc), then I am perfectly fine with that. I had just thought that discussing this question inside the Jehovahs Witness DIR would prevent completely dishonorable posts and allow the Jehovahs Witnesses to control the comments to some extent.
Thanks in advance for any information on this point.
Clear
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