Who caused Satan or the devil rebel

[Kolibri]

So I can safely ignore parts of the bible? Or is it all "perfect"?

When faced with many questions, we need to be willing to ask, as you did, for clarification from a fellow bible student. This takes time, especially when the other student needs to research things again when it has been a while since we looked into it. Our take is that with regards the Bible, "all Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, (or "correcting.") for disciplining in righteousness, so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:15,16) But in order to bring ourselves in harmony with that statement, we too had to ask, ask, ask until we were finally satisfied.

As in the example you quoted, the context De 24:16 set this passage as part of the legal code given to the nation of Israel. These earthly judges were not allowed to punish the child for a father's crime. The Israelites were even required when accepting the Law to verbally attest to proper consideration of family members left behind in this proclamation.

"'Cursed is the one who perverts the judgment of a foreign resident, a fatherless child, or a widow.' (And all the people will say, 'Amen!')" - Deuteronomy 27:19

As mentioned by @URAVIP2ME , the account in Isaiah was not about a legal code but about a judgement against the city of Babylon. The ruins of Babylon attest to the fact what was prophesied against that city came true.

You are welcome to keep asking.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

So I can safely ignore parts of the bible? Or is it all "perfect"?

Monk of Reason, No one is asking, or even implying, that you or anyone ignore parts of the Bible. By Jesus' teachings we can discern that Jesus did Not ignore the Hebrew parts. However, we do need to consider the time setting and context. Remember the Bible is Not written ABC as a dictionary is. So, we need to research the Bible by subject or topic arrangement. Because the majority of the Bible has cross-reference verses or passages then we can see the internal harmony among its many writers.

"perfect" in Scripture often carries the meaning of being complete. Such as we might say a wedding ring is perfect for a marriage ceremony. We know the measurements might not be exactly ' perfect ', but the wedding ring is completely proper for a wedding ceremony.

We do Not find the word perfect in the Greek language found in the words of 2nd Timothy 3:16,17 where it says that All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight (such as in correcting ), for disciplining in righteousness, so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped ( or fitted out ) for every good work. So, as a wedding ring is ' fitted out ', then we too can be ' fit ', so to speak, in ways that benefit us now and into an everlasting future such as mentioned at Psalm 37:11,29

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I don't see it as a law.
I lean to the notion it was a test (most people do).
However, my perspective is more to WHY the forbiddance?
I believe God made an alteration to the body and spirit of Man.
He did so, as it was obvious, with dominion in play....
Man was a creature able to overrun the planet BEFORE the spirit within him could 'gel'.
The Garden event was to alter Man's direction and 'quicken' his spirit.
Without that ability crossing over into the next life is not likely.
Man needed to be a creature of knowledge, including the difference of good and evil.
So...tell them....eat and you will die.....is not a statement of law and consequence.
It was a test to see if Man had become that creature curious beyond dying.
We did pass the test.
We ARE that creature.

Eve sure was curious, and Eve was Not beyond dying. Eve is No where to be found today.
What ' crossing over into the next life ' do you have in mind ?
Adam was clearly told that he could live on earth forever only if he obeyed God's words.
There was No cross-over life offered to mankind.
There was No postmortem penalties, or postmortem bliss, held out for Adam.
Adam simply ' returned ' according to Genesis 3:19 to the dust of the ground.
A person can Not return to a place he never was before.
From dust Adam (all of Adam ) went back to the dust.
Adam went from non-life, to life, back to non-life, or non-existence.

By Adam disobeying the command ' do not eat ' then Adam was taking the Law out of God's hands and placing the Law into human hands. Adam set up People Rule then as being superior to God Rule. Satan challenges that none of us would listen to God. Under adverse conditions we would Not serve God. At Job 2:4,5 it mentions: touch our ' flesh ' ( loose physical health ) and we would Not serve God. Both Job and Jesus proved Satan a liar, and we also have the opportunity to prove Satan's challenge against all of us is wrong.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

It was never an item of obedience....
It was always a point of intent and self discipline.

What are your thoughts regarding Hebrews 5:8 and 1st Peter 1:22; 3:1; 4:17 ?

 

[Thief]

Eve sure was curious, and Eve was Not beyond dying. Eve is No where to be found today.
What ' crossing over into the next life ' do you have in mind ?
Adam was clearly told that he could live on earth forever only if he obeyed God's words.
There was No cross-over life offered to mankind.
There was No postmortem penalties, or postmortem bliss, held out for Adam.
Adam simply ' returned ' according to Genesis 3:19 to the dust of the ground.
A person can Not return to a place he never was before.
From dust Adam (all of Adam ) went back to the dust.
Adam went from non-life, to life, back to non-life, or non-existence.

By Adam disobeying the command ' do not eat ' then Adam was taking the Law out of God's hands and placing the Law into human hands. Adam set up People Rule then as being superior to God Rule. Satan challenges that none of us would listen to God. Under adverse conditions we would Not serve God. At Job 2:4,5 it mentions: touch our ' flesh ' ( loose physical health ) and we would Not serve God. Both Job and Jesus proved Satan a liar, and we also have the opportunity to prove Satan's challenge against all of us is wrong.

You're expanding while using notions not in Genesis.....

Man was never intended to live in flesh forever.
This form was meant to form spirit.

Adam is a chosen son of God.
What happened to him in the garden was not creation.
It was manipulation.

 

[jchristopher]

Satan the devil rebelled because he wanted to be worshipped.

Lucifer is not satan.That is a huge misconception.All of these people who think they are worshipping satan are actually calling him by a name that does not belong to him to begin with.Lucifer is actually a title.It means light bearer in Latin.It comes from the original word in Hebrew "Hel el" meaning shining one.It refers to the Babylonian Dynasty led by King Nebuchadnezzar.This can be confirmed by reading Isaiah ch. 14,in it's entirety.

If one goes to Isaiah 14:12 it speaks of Lucifer. 12 “How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer,[a] son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!

If you go to 14:16 it calls him a man.We all know that Satan is no man.He is a spirit form.Hence,Lucifer cannot be satan the devil. 16Those who see you stare at you,
they ponder your fate:
“Is this the man who shook the earth
and made kingdoms tremble,

for more confirmation you can go to 14:15 and see how it speaks of Lucifer going to the realm of the dead,which is the grave.Satan the devil as we all know is not reserved for the grave.He is reserved for the eternal lake of fire. 15But you are brought down to the realm of the dead,to the depths of the pit.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

So we can clearly see that Lucifer is not satan the devil.

By the way satan and devil is not his name either.Satan means adversary.Devil means liar and slanderer.Theses are also titles.

He was known as Lucifer in the pre-mortal realm but was cast down because of rebellion against God and His plan. After he was cast out, he became Satan, or the Devil.

 

[jchristopher]

'Cause there's nothing more entertaining than to watch your creations struggle and suffer.

Oh yes, welcome to RF.

Allowing the Devil and his angels to tempt man certain wasn't for entertainment value. But there indeed was a wise purpose in doing it.

 

[Thief]

Allowing the Devil and his angels to tempt man certain wasn't for entertainment value. But there indeed was a wise purpose in doing it.

Nay....
The Fallen want us dead.
Deception is the primary means.

If you are not able to know good from evil.....where do you THINK you are going?

Would you 'know' the difference when you get there?

 

[Skwim]

Allowing the Devil and his angels to tempt man certain wasn't for entertainment value. But there indeed was a wise purpose in doing it.

Which was . . . . . . . . . . ?

 

[jchristopher]

Nay....
The Fallen want us dead.
Deception is the primary means.

If you are not able to know good from evil.....where do you THINK you are going?

Would you 'know' the difference when you get there?

Yes, they do want us dead, but does that alone mean it was unwise to allow? Nay. But it only begs the question, why? I'd be happy to explain it to you as succinctly as I can.

 

[jchristopher]

Which was . . . . . . . . . . ?

So that the principle of free will could be fully operative in the world. So that man could be placed in a position to be enticed by both good and evil, so they could be agents unto themselves, to act and not be acted upon. How could man know the difference between good and evil save he should experience it? How could he have faith, do good or ever be happy?

 

[Skwim]

So that the principle of free will could be fully operative in the world.

In what way would freewill not be fully operative if there was no tempting of evil in the world? After all, freewill is simply the ability to choose.

So that man could be placed in a position to be enticed by both good and evil,

To what value? What is the value in being enticed by evil? Could you not happily go through life without participating in an evil act?

so they could be agents unto themselves, to act and not be acted upon.

And why would they not be free agents if there was no evil? or not act and not be acted upon?

How could man know the difference between good and evil save he should experience it?

This begs the question. It's like asking, how could man know the difference between eating raw squirrel or not save he should experience it?

How could he have faith,

Very easily. I don't need evil to have faith that the guy approaching a controlled intersection will stop and not barrel through it and T-bone me, which gives me the courage to proceed .

do good or ever be happy?

Do you really need evil in the world in order to do good or be happy ?

 

[Thief]

Yes, they do want us dead, but does that alone mean it was unwise to allow? Nay. But it only begs the question, why? I'd be happy to explain it to you as succinctly as I can.

Me first!

One third of heaven said ...Nay, Man is less and he should be made to serve us.

There's nothing wrong with that logic.
We humans do so unto all else less than we are.....even unto each other.
The dog hunts at will in packs.
We take his freedom and chain him....forbid he would bite the hand that feeds him.
We expect loyalty.
We saddle the horse and force the bit into his mouth.
We break his spirit that he takes us anywhere we choose.
We cage little birds for their love songs.
That creature will never find the mate he sings for.
There will be no nest , no eggs, no offspring.
He will die caged....in solitude.

We kill anything that will not serve us.
We often kill each other.

One third of heaven lost their positions in heaven over an argument about something that looks like....us.
They want us dead.
(and we bear resemblance to whom?)
Two thirds of heaven lost their brothers over an argument about something that looks like .....us.
( and you think maybe, they care?)

Picture yourself seated at the Table....breaking bread and drinking wine....
and objection is raised!

(speaking as would an angel).....
Seated !!!!where my brother once held a place beside me.....
and I should be glad to have a talking monkey in place of my brother?
especially as this talking monkey speaks as did my brother?
He is less than me....and should be made to serve me.
Let me collar this animal.
Let me cage his freedom!
I shall teach him to sing praise!...and he shall die in service!

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Me first!
One third of heaven said ...Nay, Man is less and he should be made to serve us.

One third of heaven means 1/3 of rebellious angels are followers of Satan.
People, starting with Adam, do Not ever become angels.
Angels are a first separate creation in the invisible spirit body realm.
People are a later separate creation in the visible physical realm.

There is the heaven which is God's dwelling place - 1st Kings chapter 8
Then, there are the heavens over us.
There is the mid-heavens where the birds fly
In Scripture ' heavens ' also imply those who rule over mankind as being lofty.
2nd Peter 3 vs 5,7,13 mentions 3 heavens and 3 earths.
Please notice in verse 5 mentions the heavens and earth of ->OLD
That was the world of Noah's day.
Verse 7 mentions the heavens and earth of ->NOW
That is this bad system since Noah to our present day or our time right now.
Verse 13 mentions the heavens and earth when righteousness dwells as being-> NEW
New in the sense that Jesus will take the action of Isaiah 11:3,4; Rev. 19:11,15 to rid the earth of wickedness, thus mankind can have the opportunity, as Adam originally had, to live forever and ever on earth as originally purposed by God. That is why when Jesus referred to Psalm 37:11,29 that the humble meek would Not only inherit the earth, but they will live on earth forever and ever starting with Jesus' soon coming 1000-year kingdom rule over earth.
When Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among men of goodwill.
- Psalm 72:8,12-14

 

[URAVIP2ME]

You're expanding while using notions not in Genesis.....
Man was never intended to live in flesh forever.
This form was meant to form spirit.
Adam is a chosen son of God.
What happened to him in the garden was not creation.
It was manipulation.

Manipulation was by rebel Satan who deceived Eve - 1st Timothy 2:14

If man was never intended to live on earth forever in the flesh (physical ) forever, then why does Psalm 37:11,29 say not only would meek people inherit the earth, but such righteous people would dwell on earth forever ?

Who ' remains ' on earth according to Proverbs 2:21,22 ?

 

[Thief]

Manipulation was by rebel Satan who deceived Eve - 1st Timothy 2:14

If man was never intended to live on earth forever in the flesh (physical ) forever, then why does Psalm 37:11,29 say not only would meek people inherit the earth, but such righteous people would dwell on earth forever ?

Who ' remains ' on earth according to Proverbs 2:21,22 ?

No really....I meant something else.

Man as a species on Day Six.
No names, no garden, no law...go forth, be fruitful, multiply, dominate all things.
Man did so.

Day Seven, rest.
No more will be created.

THEN Chapter Two.
Adam is a chosen son of God.
The garden and the events therein, alter the body and spirit.
Eve is a clone....that's right.... a clone.
Not born of woman.
Eve had no navel.
Made of Adam's rib she would be Adam's twin sister.

I don't cloud my reading with salvation rant.
It takes form the event.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

THEN Chapter Two.
Adam is a chosen son of God.
The garden and the events therein, alter the body and spirit.
Eve is a clone....that's right.... a clone.
Not born of woman.
Eve had no navel.
Made of Adam's rib she would be Adam's twin sister.
.

However, how is a twin/clone made from another one person's rib?
How was the body and spirit altered?
While on earth Jesus resurrected the dead in healthy physical bodies of flesh.
They had a healthy physical body with the same spirit of life.
Jesus gave us a preview, or small-scale sample, of what Jesus will be doing on a GRAND scale all over the earth during Jesus' coming 1000-year kingdom rule over earth. - Psalm 37:11,29

Acts 24:15 uses the ' future tense ' that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection.......
Since the humble meek are to inherit the earth, then they would have to be physically alive on earth in order to live on earth forever - Psalm 37:11,29

 

[Nada]

He was known as Lucifer in the pre-mortal realm but was cast down because of rebellion against God and His plan. After he was cast out, he became Satan, or the Devil.

Thinking that Lucifer is the devil is a misconception based on traditional thinking.Lucifer comes from the Latin word Lucifero which means "light bearer." It comes from the original Hebrew word "Hel el." This means "shining one." This is a title given to the Babylonian dynasty led by King Nebuchadnezzar.Where it speaks of "Lucifer", this shining one,in the book of Isaiah,it speaks of judgment against the city of Babylon.It also refers to "Lucifer" as a man.Satan is not a man,he is a spirit.It also says that he will be led down to the grave.We know from the book of revelation that satan the devil is reserved for the eternal lake of fire.So this could not be referring to satan the devil.

Here is the passage that mentions "Lucifer."

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

It is usually translated to "morning star."

If we go down just a few scriptures it says this about Lucifer.

Isaiah 14:16 Those who see you stare at you,
they ponder your fate:
“Is this the man who shook the earth
and made kingdoms tremble,

If we go just one scripture before it says this.

Isaiah 14:15 But you are brought down to the realm of the dead,
to the depths of the pit.

So here we clearly see from reading and studying that Lucifer, or morning star, is actually referring to the Babylonian dynasty.This can also be confirmed by reading the book of Daniel ch.4.When Daniel is explaining to King Nebuchadnezzar everything that is told to him goes hand and hand with what is spoken of in Isaiah 14.Compare Isaiah 14:12 with Daniel 4:15.It speaks of Lucifer being cut down to the ground.It is referring to King Nebuchadnezzar.Daniel explains that the tree that has been cut down to a stump represents his kingdom being cut down but he would regain it after 7 years.The stump regrows.Kingdom arises again.

Another thing,Satan the devil has been called that since man has been on earth.Satan means adversary.Devil means slanderer,liar.These are titles and not names.He was called this before and after he and the other demons were cast down to earth.

Jude 1:9 New International Version (NIV)
9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

Revelation 12:9 The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Satan the devil has been called that since the OT.He was cast down in the book of Revelation.This was well after Jesus.

 

[Thief]

However, how is a twin/clone made from another one person's rib?
How was the body and spirit altered?
While on earth Jesus resurrected the dead in healthy physical bodies of flesh.
They had a healthy physical body with the same spirit of life.
Jesus gave us a preview, or small-scale sample, of what Jesus will be doing on a GRAND scale all over the earth during Jesus' coming 1000-year kingdom rule over earth. - Psalm 37:11,29

Acts 24:15 uses the ' future tense ' that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection.......
Since the humble meek are to inherit the earth, then they would have to be physically alive on earth in order to live on earth forever - Psalm 37:11,29

Well try looking at it from God's perspective.....yes you can.

You want a means to form spirit....without dividing spirit directly.
Splitting yourself into smaller pieces seems to be the item......otherwise....
Division immediate renders a mirror image.....you end up talking to yourself and your Echo.

Something less is the only possibility.
Stuffing spirit into flesh the only means.

Man was suppose to be that spirit.
But was behaving like an animal and would overrun the resources before the mind and heart take hold.

So....Chapter Two.
900years of One on one.....
and the cloning technique applied.

Check by test to make sure the creature has curiosity even when death is pending......
and then release into the environment.

(too bad Cain didn't get a clone......right?)

 

[Thief]

However, how is a twin/clone made from another one person's rib?
How was the body and spirit altered?

and if you think it's difficult....with all the education you've got....
imagine 3,500yrs ago and someone tells you a story....

he was put into a deep sleep and a rib was cut from him.....

HOW could anyone believe it?
NO anesthesia!.....surgery without killing the man!.....

and then increase the sample to full stature.....cloning.
and the sample formed to female....genetic engineering.

but you know of such things.....don't you?