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Featured Which Messianic verses of Isaiah refer to Christ?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by adrian009, Oct 12, 2018.

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  1. Yes, there are Messianic verses in Isaiah and all refer to Christ

    36.0%
  2. Yes, there are Messianic verses in Isaiah and at least one or more refers to Christ

    20.0%
  3. Yes, there are Messianic verses in Isaiah but none refer to Christ

    28.0%
  4. There are no Messianic verses in Isaiah

    8.0%
  5. I don’t know

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. This poll doesn’t reflect my thoughts

    8.0%
  1. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    As the Tablet of the True Seeker continues, we can see that there are some pretty stiff requirements...

    “....... Even as thou dost witness in this Day how most of the people, because of such love and hate, are bereft of the immortal Face, have strayed far from the Embodiments of the Divine mysteries, and, shepherdless, are roaming through the wilderness of oblivion and error.

    That seeker must, at all times, put his trust in God, must renounce the peoples of the earth, must detach himself from the world of dust, and cleave unto Him Who is the Lord of Lords. He must never seek to exalt himself above any one, must wash away from the tablet of his heart every trace of pride and vain-glory, must cling unto patience and resignation, observe silence and refrain from idle talk. For the tongue is a smoldering fire, and excess of speech a deadly poison. Material fire consumeth the body, whereas the fire of the tongue devoureth both heart and soul. The force of the former lasteth but for a time, whilst the effects of the latter endureth a century.

    That seeker should, also, regard backbiting as grievous error, and keep himself aloof from its dominion, inasmuch as backbiting quencheth the light of the heart, and extinguisheth the life of the soul. He should be content with little, and be freed from all inordinate desire. He should treasure the companionship of them that have renounced the world, and regard avoidance of boastful and worldly people a precious benefit. At the dawn of every day he should commune with God, and, with all his soul, persevere in the quest of his Beloved. He should consume every wayward thought with the flame of His loving mention, and, with the swiftness of lightning, pass by all else save Him. He should succor the dispossessed, and never withhold his favor from the destitute. He should show kindness to animals, how much more unto his fellow-man, to him who is endowed with the power of utterance. He should not hesitate to offer up his life for his Beloved, nor allow the censure of the people to turn him away from the Truth. He should not wish for others that which he doth not wish for himself, nor promise that which he doth not fulfil. With all his heart he should avoid fellowship with evil-doers, and pray for the remission of their sins. He should forgive the sinful, and never despise his low estate, for none knoweth what his own end shall be. How often hath a sinner attained, at the hour of death, to the essence of faith, and, quaffing the immortal draught, hath taken his flight unto the Concourse on high! And how often hath a devout believer, at the hour of his soul’s ascension, been so changed as to fall into the nethermost fire!

    Our purpose in revealing these convincing and weighty utterances is to impress upon the seeker that he should regard all else beside God as transient, and count all things save Him, Who is the Object of all adoration, as utter nothingness.

    These are among the attributes of the exalted, and constitute the hall-mark of the spiritually-minded. They have already been mentioned in connection with the requirements of the wayfarers that tread the path of Positive Knowledge. When the detached wayfarer and sincere seeker hath fulfilled these essential conditions, then and only then can he be called a true seeker. Whensoever he hath fulfilled the conditions implied in the verse: “Whoso maketh efforts for Us,” he shall enjoy the blessings conferred by the words: “In Our Ways shall We assuredly guide him.”

    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Tablet of the True Seeker, pp. 264-267
     
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  2. OtherSheep

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    Well, that's good, isn't it.
    Two different religions trying to discuss the one obviously Israelite Bible doesn't actually work.
    I used to get into heated discussions with someone spitting out Bible verses... who didn't even believe that Jesus is God, until I finally asked him why he didn't write his own bible from scratch. He didn't take it very well... but it did end all the worthless discussions... so, Win-win!

    ____________
    OK, For the Israelites, then:

    Revelation 22:10 "And he saith unto me, 'Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. 11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.'"

    IOW, Jesus says that Prophecy had come to an end with this last scroll, IMHO.
    Throughout the Oldest Testament, the main reason for Prophecy was to save the wicked man. The New Covenant, in Revelation, says the Testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy... again, by whom the wicked may be saved. This one message runs from the Seed of the Woman through Revelation 22. Jesus says that people will believe on Him by the literal words the disciples taught... those words being the same words Jesus had taught. Keeping those words become a matter of life and death, in John 12:48. His sheep hear His voice (John 10). He is the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but by Jesus. And no one is drawn to the Son without having first been drawn to the Law of the Father (John 17:6). This is the door of the sheep, Jesus is that only door.
     
    #82 OtherSheep, Oct 24, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2018
  3. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    According to Luke 1:1-3, the gospel of Luke is a collection of unverified stories from unspecified 2nd party sources.
     
  4. OtherSheep

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    "That City is none other than the Word of God revealed in every age and dispensation. In the days of Moses it was the Pentateuch; in the days of Jesus, the Gospel; in the days of Muḥammad, the Messenger of God, the Qur’án; in this day, the Bayán; and in the Dispensation of Him Whom God will make manifest, His own Book—the Book unto which all the Books of former Dispensations must needs be referred, the Book that standeth amongst them all transcendent and supreme."--Persian Tablet, quoted link.

    Revelation 19:13 "And He [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nations: and He shall rule them with a rod of iron: and He treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."
    {I thought you said no verses in the Bible show Jesus coming back, TB? If you don't recognize Jesus as that Word of God, both here, and in John 1, you have no eyes.}

    Dispensationalism is not an Israelite Bible concept... neither from the Oldest Testament, nor from the New Covenant which Jesus preaches to His sheep.

    But Paulianity has so many things in common with your Persian tablet that they almost had to've had a common origin. Spirituality over common-sense would seem to be the base of both. And Spirituality is smoke and mirrors, entirely dependant upon the gaze of the seer. In fact, if there were a more humanistic approach to religion, I've never seen one. They each toss aside the Law of our Heavenly Father and replace it with feel-good humanism... just as did the Pharisiacal traditions which set aside the Law... a sort of one-upmanship on God, [Who actually created the people for whom the Bible is written] going Him one better, as it were. But Jesus says clean the inside of the cup if you want the outside to become clean... and that His Word has made the 11 clean, because He tells His Father that the men who followed the Law have also followed the New Covenant written on their hearts.

    "Among the main themes of the Bayán are the mystic character of action, the prohibition of causing grief to others, refinement, perfection and the spiritualization of life and language.[4] Nader Saiedi states that the severe laws of the Bayán were never meant to be put in practice, because their implementation depended on the appearance of He whom God shall make manifest, while at the same time all of the laws would be abrogated unless the Promised One would reaffirm them."--https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Bay%C3%A1n

    Again, not according to the Israelite Bible... see Deuteronomy 18 and John 12, to learn that the "Promised One" is in fact Jesus... and the Old Covenant has already been affirmed by Jesus... along with the Promise of land and Kingdom of David. David means loving, so the literal meaning of the test may not always be represented as the personal name... which sometimes happens in the interpretation. And who has ever been more loving than Jesus? Granted, the Pharisees don't think so... without pretending Jesus didn't mean what He so ovbiously did mean. But a love of the sheep means protecting the sheep at the expense of the wolves of Lukos and Benjamin. And I am almost willing to do a thread linking Paul to that tablet... since the Pharisees and that tablet both came from Persia/Babylon.

    Yep. And if you ever read anything from Tertullian and Marcion, you'll see Lukos. I'm tempted to say that Marcion was actually the author of the Pauline/Lucosian dogma... they support each other like three walls of the same a pyramid.
    ________________________
    Anyone thinking that Jesus left something better, unsaid, does not deserve the Kingdom of God.
     
    #84 OtherSheep, Oct 24, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2018
  5. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    So you think that the Bible is the property of the Israelites and only they know what it means?
    So you think that those who do not believe Jesus is God have no business discussing the Bible?
    What about Jews who do not even believe in Jesus?
    It was a matter of life and death that people believed in Jesus during His Dispensation; not physical life and death but rather spiritual life and vs. spiritual death. Eternal life is a quality of life, being close to God. It does not refer to physical life but rather spiritual life.

    John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

    John 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

    1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

    John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

    “The immortality of the spirit is mentioned in the Holy Books; it is the fundamental basis of the divine religions. Now punishments and rewards are said to be of two kinds: first, the rewards and punishments of this life; second, those of the other world. But the paradise and hell of existence are found in all the worlds of God, whether in this world or in the spiritual heavenly worlds. Gaining these rewards is the gaining of eternal life. That is why Christ said, “Act in such a way that you may find eternal life, and that you may be born of water and the spirit, so that you may enter into the Kingdom.” 2Some Answered Questions, p. 223

    There was no way to gain access to God except through Jesus during His Dispensation, which is why Jesus said:
    John 14:6 “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

    When Jesus said He was the Way, Jesus was referring to that time period in history and He meant that He was the Only Way during his Dispensation, which He was. But clearly, Jesus said that another would succeed Him and convey the “many things” that people could not “bear” back then. John 16:12-13 "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."

    John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

    This verse refers to all of humanity. Obviously that could not be accomplished at Jesus’ first coming because the whole world could not even communicate with each other and come into one fold. Obviously it refers to a future age in history.

    Baha’is believe Jesus is referring to His Second Coming, when all of humanity would be gathered together and become one people. The unity of mankind was the primary mission of Baha’u’llah. The one fold was prophesied in Isaiah 11:6-9 and the one shepherd was prophesied in Isaiah 9:6-7. It is a Baha’i belief that in the future there will be only one religion, the religion of God.

    The reason Jesus did not say “And then shall they see me coming in the clouds with great power and glory” is because the title Son of man does not apply exclusively to Jesus. It also applies to Baha’u’llah. Both Jesus and Baha’u’llah were the Son of man because both were a Messiah.

    When Jesus referred to the Son of man (Mark 13:26, Mark 14:62, Matthew 24:30, Matthew 26:64) Jesus was referring to another Person, another Comforter, also known as the Spirit of truth. Jesus never promised that He would return in the same body. He promised to send His Spirit, the Christ Spirit:

    John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for hedwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

    John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

    John 16:13-14 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

    Baha’u’llah did everything Jesus said he would do in John 14:26, John 15:26, John 16:13-14. The Holy Spirit living inside of Christians could not do what it says in these verses. Only a man could do these things. I can prove Baha’u’llah did these things but I do not want to get into that now since that will make this post too long. However, the passage below is the fulfillment of John 15:26:

    KJ21
    “But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of Truth who proceedeth from the Father, He shall testify of Me.

    ASV
    But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall bear witness of me:

    Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah wrote the following, testifying of Jesus and bearing witness to Jesus:

    “Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.

    We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.

    Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86
     
  6. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    If Jesus did not leave anything unsaid, why did Jesus say in John 16:12:
    “I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.” o_O

    Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah brought the “many things” that humanity could not bear back in the days of Jesus. Baha’u’llah was the Comforter and the Spirit of truth Jesus promised to send.

    John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

    John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

    John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes forth from with the Father, *he* shall bear witness concerning me;

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

    John 16:12-13 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
     
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  7. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Yes, Jesus was The Word of God, as explained in this passage:

    “As it is said in the Gospel of John, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God”; 1 then the Holy Spirit and the Word are the appearance of God. The Spirit and the Word mean the divine perfections that appeared in the Reality of Christ, and these perfections were with God; so the sun manifests all its glory in the mirror. For the Word does not signify the body of Christ, no, but the divine perfections manifested in Him. For Christ was like a clear mirror which was facing the Sun of Reality; and the perfections of the Sun of Reality—that is to say, its light and heat—were visible and apparent in this mirror. If we look into the mirror, we see the sun, and we say, “It is the sun.” Therefore, the Word and the Holy Spirit, which signify the perfections of God, are the divine appearance. This is the meaning of the verse in the Gospel which says: “The Word was with God, and the Word was God”; 2 for the divine perfections are not different from the Essence of Oneness. The perfections of Christ are called the Word because all the beings are in the condition of letters, and one letter has not a complete meaning, while the perfections of Christ have the power of the word because a complete meaning can be inferred from a word. As the Reality of Christ was the manifestation of the divine perfections, therefore, it was like the word. Why? Because He is the sum of perfect meanings. This is why He is called the Word.”
    Some Answered Questions, pp. 206-207

    Baha’u’llah was the RETURN of Christ, so He was the RETURN of the Word of God; as noted in the passage above “the Word and the Holy Spirit, which signify the perfections of God, are the divine appearance.”

    Please note that it says: For the Word does not signify the body of Christ, no, but the divine perfections manifested in Him.”

    The SAME divine perfections that were manifested in Jesus were also manifested in Baha’u’llah. In other words, it was the Spirit of Jesus that manifested divine perfections, not His body. Baha’u’llah was the SAME spirit so He manifested the SAME perfections. It was never the body of Jesus that was to come back; it was the spirit of Jesus, the Christ Spirit.

    The Word of God can mean more than one thing, depending upon the context in which it is used. In that quote from Gleanings, "That City is none other than the Word of God revealed in every age and dispensation” The Word of God means the Revelation of God that comes through the Manifestations of God (e.g., Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah) in every age and dispensation.
     
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  8. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    At some point, you're going to have to stop saying you don't know much about the Bible. Now about your John 16:12 quote, Christians, for 2000 years have believed this refers to their idea of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit descended on the believers on Pentecost and they all started speaking in tongues. I can see where they get that from. It seems to make sense that the Holy Spirit, for Christians, was that Comforter that was expected. And, these verses were before Jesus was taken away to be crucified and then allegedly rise again from the dead, for Christians, those are part of the things his followers couldn't bear yet.

    Baha'is see these verses totally different. They make that about Baha'u'llah. So explain who this Holy Spirit was then? For you, did these verses at all mean both Baha'u'llah and the Holy Spirit? Or, just Baha'u'llah? But then, what about Muhammad? Was he also a Comforter and a "Spirit of Truth" testifying of Christ?

    For Baha'is, what do you think it was that Jesus couldn't tell them about? Something that they couldn't "bear" at that time about the future message of Baha'u'llah? That it wouldn't be him, in person, being the one returning? That would of been nice if he would have mentioned that. That there will be a message of universal peace? That all people are one? That all religions are one? It would have been nice to say that, but back then religions weren't one. Every religion other then Judaism and Christianity was false. So is that what they couldn't bear?
     
  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I know what Christians believe about Pentecost, and it is based upon these verses.

    Acts 2:1-4 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

    There is no reason to question that the Holy Spirit descended upon them at Pentecost but that is a separate event from the Comforter being sent later.

    It makes no sense that what they could not bear was that Jesus was to be crucified because the verse that follows has nothing to do with the crucifixion.

    John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

    What they could not bear when Jesus walked the earth was all truth, because they were not ready for all truth at that time. But they were ready when Baha’u’llah revealed it (not literally all truth because all truth can never be revealed all at once, so that is meant figuratively).

    Jesus was “a Comforter” because Jesus brought the Holy Spirit, which is the Bounty of God. Baha’u’llah was “another Comforter” and He was also the Spirit of truth.

    John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

    John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    It makes no sense that the Comforter is a disembodied Holy Spirit because a disembodied Holy Spirit cannot do the things mentioned in the following verses. Only a Manifestation of God who brings the Holy Spirit could do those things in bold:

    John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

    John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

    John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

    John 16:13-14 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

    Baha’u’llah did all these things and many more things Jesus promised He would do such as:

    John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

    Christians believe this verse means Jesus gathering the gentiles in his day, but that makes no sense since that verse is future tense. Baha’is believe the one fold refers to all of humanity and the one shepherd was Baha’u’llah. Obviously the one fold could not be accomplished at Jesus’ first coming, when He walked the earth, because the whole world could not even communicate with each other. Obviously it refers to a future age in history, “there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.” This is all part of that puzzle that fits together perfectly.
    Jesus was a Manifestation of God who brought the Holy Spirit (Bounty of God) to humanity. Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God who brought the Holy Spirit (Bounty of God) to humanity. They were referred to as Comforters because the Bounty of God is comforting. Muhammad was also a Comforter but He was not the Spirit of truth. That was Baha’u’llah since He taught all things and did all the other things noted above, among other things.
    Everything “new” that Baha’u’llah revealed is constitutes the many things that people were not ready to hear back when Jesus walked the earth; the oneness of mankind, that all religions are one, universal peace, elimination of prejudice of all kinds, equality of men and women, etc.

    It was not intended that religions would be “one” back in the days of Jesus because humanity was not spiritually evolved enough to grasp such a concept. Sadly, most of humanity still isn’t evolved enough but we are only in the very beginning of the Dispensation of Baha’u’llah. In the beginning of any new religious dispensation, there are only a few followers who are able to grasp the new concepts.

    Jesus and God have left it up to the Christians (and others) to figure out the Bible, to put the puzzle together and figure out that the OT and NT prophecies that refer to the Messiah and the Return of Christ and the Son of man were never about the same man Jesus returning on a cloud from the sky. For most Christians this requires too much deprogramming, and only those who are “true seekers” will be motivated to figure it out.

    The vast majority of Christians will continue to cling to their fantasies of the same man Jesus returning until after they die. They will do so because that is what they WANT to happen. They do not want another Manifestation of God called Baha’u’llah. Unfortunately, that is just too bad, because Baha’u’llah is who God sent, and Jesus is NEVER coming back, never. Jesus went back to heaven from whence He came. In heaven His soul took on a spiritual body, and there Jesus will remain for eternity.

    Christians will probably see Jesus in heaven and He will ask them why they rejected Him when He returned in the Person of Baha’u’llah. By turning away from Baha’u’llah they turned away from Jesus, would they but know it. I cannot say what the repercussions of this will be; only God knows. I imagine it will be handled by God on a case-by-case basis.

    “O people, if ye deny these verses, by what proof have ye believed in God? Produce it, O assemblage of false ones.

    Nay, by the One in Whose hand is my soul, they are not, and never shall be able to do this, even should they combine to assist one another...............

    Thus have their superstitions become veils between them and their own hearts and kept them from the path of God, the Exalted, the Great.

    Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity.”
    Bahá’u’lláh, Tablet of Ahmad
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  10. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    What do you think of Isaiah? I've never bothered to look into it, but I've heard that there are problems with believing that all of Isaiah was written by one person. Actually, I'd be more inclined to believe that it too was a collection of stories and prophecies and attributed to Isaiah.
     
  11. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    But then again, if one is to listen to and heed Yeshua, it would come under the grouping referred to as Scripture (OT), which cannot be broken (John 10:35). Whereas the NT would come under the grouping of the tare seed and the good seed, published by the daughter of Babylon, the Roman church, by way of the bishop of Alexandria, in the year 367, well past the time of the "falling away".
     
  12. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    I've got a little problem with the "progressive" revelation belief of the Baha'is. Different tribal societies all had a religion. All empires in ancient times had a religion. Many of those religions had several things in common. Some of those religions lasted for centuries and served the people well... sort of. Unless the person was at the bottom of the social system like a slave or an untouchable. But all the people in that society had the same religion. Even Judaism was mainly for a certain people. So, for any particular group of people, there was only one religion.

    Now, I don't see any of those religions as being necessarily "The Truth". They seemed to be made up by the spiritual leaders of the group. They were filled with myths and rituals that were designed to maintain order in the society and to give spiritual answers as to why things are like they are. All cultures had these. The Greeks, the Romans, the Chinese, the Egyptians and all the rest of the early empires. I don't see how any of those religions fall in line with the modern religions. But they were part of the progression of religious beliefs and how religions were practiced.

    Christianity and Islam took a lot of those religions out, but not because those older religions needed to be updated, but because Christianity and Islam called those religions false. So, to me, it's not an "evolution" of religion or a progression, but the destruction of those old ways of believing. They were done away with. Even recently with tribal people, the tribal religions were banned and not allowed to be taught.

    But even with some of the major religions, they try to get rid of the other religions by saying those other religions are false also. And, even Baha'is believe a lot of the things in those older major religions are false. So I don't see the "oneness" and "acceptance" of the beliefs of others, but a getting rid of these other religions. And, if the Baha'is are right, all these other religions aren't teaching the truth. They've all got things mixed in their beliefs that the Baha'is disagree with.

    The usual Baha'i answer tries to say that at one time, or originally, they all taught the same thing, and had a true message from the one true God. I don't see it. It seems way too easy for even the major religions to have much of their beliefs to be made up by spiritual people and leaders.

    'Cause here we are talking about Paul, and if he added things in to change what Christianity became. And now with Isaiah. But who was Isaiah? How can we know or trust what he said is the truth? And, even if it is, every religion interprets those words and prophecies different. And, of course, each group thinks their interpretation if the right one. And, if the Baha'is are right with their interpretation, it does make all the other wrong and false. Which makes the beliefs of those other religions wrong and false. So where is the oneness and the respecting of the other religions and the progression? For me, it still more of a battle, and the winning religion destroys the others.
     
  13. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    If those religions were not revealed by a Manifestation of God then they are not part of “progressive revelation” so we can immediately exclude them from the equation. Spiritual leaders are not Manifestations of God (Messengers or Prophets) of any kind.

    Judaism was a religion because Moses was a Manifestation of God.
    Christianity and Islam took a lot of those religions out because they were not true religions of God. They would have died anyway because only true religions of God survive and thrive.
    NO, Baha’is do not say that the older religions such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam are false because they all had a real Manifestation of God who revealed them. To say that they became corrupted over time is not the same thing as saying they are false. In their original form all of them were true, before man corrupted them.

    “This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 171-172

    “It is an indisputable fact that religions have always changed in the course of their long history. Religion, unless it has become a faith of the ‘dead letter’, is a living thing, and to be living means to assimilate, to absorb and incorporate foreign matter. All religions have done this, and the clear source of revelation has become a broad stream made up of many tributaries. In the course of their history all religions have incorporated beliefs and practices alien to them in essence and have thereby departed from their source, the revelation. The religious heritage has been constantly increased, while the revelation has been obscured by human misinterpretations and misunderstandings.”
    (Udo Schaefer,The Light Shineth in Darkness: Studies in revelation after Christ, pl. 80)

    Baha’is only say that the spiritual verities of religions have to be renewed in every age because people forget them and that a new message is needed to suit the present age in history.

    “The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213
    Originally they all taught the same spiritual verities and even now their scriptures contain those spiritual verities but people forget those over time because they get clouded over with all the man-made doctrines and dogma that are added to the religions.

    Of course the major religions had many of their beliefs made up by spiritual people and leaders after the death of the Prophet Founder of those religions, because there was no Covenant guaranteeing succession of authority within the religions and there was no appointed interpreter of the scriptures. Add to that the fact that we do not have any Original Writings of any Manifestation of God that preceded the Bab. The Qur’an was dictated so it is much more authentic than the Bible or the Torah, but it was not the actual Writings of Muhammad.

    The Baha’i Faith is the only major religion that did not have this problem, since we have a (1) a written Covenant and we have (2) the Original Writings of Baha’u’llah that cannot be altered and we have (3) appointed interpreters of Baha’u’llah’s Writings (Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi). We do not have those for any other religion so we cannot even be sure what the Prophet Founder actually said, let alone to whom He wanted authority to be passed on to after He died.
    You are right that if there is a disagreement of meaning of the older scriptures, the Baha’i interpretation is the correct one. The reason why is fairly simple. The Baha’i Faith is the most recent Revelation from God and Baha’u’llah had the knowledge from God, so He knew what all the former scriptures meant. We also have Abdu’l-Baha who learned from Baha’u’llah and he was the appointed interpreter of the Writings of Baha’u’llah.

    “Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endurethfor ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. They who are its appointed interpreters, they whose hearts are the repositories of its secrets, are, however, the only ones who can comprehend its manifold wisdom. Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead, though to outward seeming he may walk and converse with his neighbors, and share with them their food and their drink.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 175-176

    The man-made beliefs and false doctrines of the older religions are false because they do not come from an infallible God; they come from fallible men, since the interpretations of those scriptures was incorrect in many cases. For one example, Christians believe that the Comforter was the Holy Spirit that was sent at Pentecost to live inside of Christians and guide them, but the Comforter is actually a Manifestation of God that came to reveal all truth and teach all things. Just this one difference in belief has made it impossible for Christians to believe in any Manifestation of God that came after Jesus. They believe that all they need is the Holy Spirit that lives inside them and it will teach them all truth for all time. But this does not even make any sense because Christians do not even agree with each other, so which ones is the Holy Spirit telling the truth to?

    I think that one of your problems is that you overthink all of this so you miss the BIG PICTURE that I just explained. The Baha’i Faith theology is really not all that complicated. :)
     
  14. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    The "Big Picture" is very complicated. If Moses was the manifestation that brought Judaism, then what did Abraham bring? Why are Moses and Abraham even called "manifestations" when Judaism doesn't call them that? Isaiah gives a "sign" from God for a King. That sign has many things that will happen to a certain boy or things that boy will do. One thing, that he was born from a "virgin" is taken and made into a prophecy about Jesus that won't happen for several centuries.

    Now the child that was actually born in the time of Isaiah and that King, was he born of a virgin or just a normal "young" woman? That child didn't have to have miraculous birth. He didn't even have to have a miraculous life. All he had to do is get older, because by the time he reached a certain age, the King's problem of an invading army would be gone. Simple. So who overthinks things? Or, more like... who takes things out of context and makes them prophecies? Christians did and now Baha'is have too. If you have time to read past Isaiah 7:14, please do... and tell me what you think about the context of the "sign". Unfortunately, I think many people in religions underthink things. They too easily just fall in line with their "infallible" beliefs.
     
  15. OtherSheep

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    Matthew.24:23

    Matthew 13:14-15 "And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." [and Matthew 15:7-9]


    Esaias 29:9 "Faint ye, and be amazed, and be overpowered, not with strong drink nor with wine. 10 For the Lord has made you to drink a spirit of deep sleep; and He shall close their eyes, and the eyes of their prophets and of their rulers, who see secret things. 11 And all these things shall be to you as the words of this sealed book, which if they shall give to a learned man, saying, 'Read this,' he shall then say, 'I cannot read it, for it is sealed.' 12 And this book shall be given into the hands of a man that is unlearned, and one shall say to him, 'Read this;' and he shall say, 'I am not learned.' 13 And the Lord has said, 'This people draw nigh to Me with their mouth, and they honour Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me: but in vain do they worship Me, teaching the commandments and doctrines of men.' 14 Therefore behold I will proceed to remove this people, and I will remove them: and I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will hide the understanding of the prudent."

    The Parable of the Wedding
    Matthew 22:6-7 "And the remnant took His servants, and entreated [them] spitefully, and slew [them]. But when the king heard [thereof], He was wroth: and He sent forth His armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city."

    The Parable of the Vineyard
    Matthew 21:37-39 "But last of all He sent unto them His Son, saying, They will reverence My Son. But when the husbandmen saw the Son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill Him, and let us seize on His inheritance. And they caught Him, and cast [Him] out of the vineyard, and slew [Him]."
    21:43 "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

    The Remnant
    Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!"

    The Husbandmen
    Matthew 23:34-35 "Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar."


    [Dispensation = oikos-nomos = house law]
    Dispensationalism = changing ages and laws.

    Daniel 7:25 "And he shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change times and law: and power shall be given into his hand for a time and times and half a time."

    "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away."
    --Jesus, in John 24:35

    John 17:6, 20-21 "the men which thou gavest Me", "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word"

    Matthew 28:18-20 "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto Me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world."

    12:48-50 "He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of Myself; but the Father which sent Me, He gave Me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that His commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak."

    The Father gave Jesus the commandments that Jesus taught, and the 11 were told to teach the nations {gentiles} those commandments, which commandments, in and of themselves, are life everlasting, for those who obey.


    John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

    Revelation 1:7 "Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they [also] which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him."
    ["Jesus Christ, the faithful witness" . . . "He that liveth, and was dead"]

    Revelation 14:1 "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with Him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having His Father's name written in their foreheads."

    Revelation 17:14 "These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful."

    Revelation 12:17 "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

    Can kinda see why you skip the Book of Revelation, TB.
     
  16. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I just realized something. As long as you keep referring back to the Bible and what adherents of the older religions believe you are going to remain confused. Obviously Judaism is going to view Abraham and Moses differently from the Baha’i Faith since they interpret their scriptures differently than Baha’u’llah or Abdu’l-Baha or a Baha’i would interpret them.

    So as long as you keep referring BACK to what adherents to older religions believe you are going to be confused. One cannot be a Jew and a Baha’i or a Christian and a Baha’i. We have to choose between one and the other because our beliefs differ.

    Simply put, Moses and Abraham are called Prophets because Baha’u’llah called them that in the Kitab-i-Iqan. There were other Prophets He referred to such as Noah. However, all the Prophets were not considered Universal Manifestations of God. Abdu’l-Baha explained the differences between the three kinds of Prophets.

    Question: How many kinds of divine Prophets are there?
    Answer: There are three kinds of divine Prophets. One kind are the universal Manifestations, which are even as the sun. Through Their advent the world of existence is renewed, a new cycle is inaugurated, a new religion is revealed, souls are quickened to a new life, and East and West are flooded with light. These Souls are the universal Manifestations of God and have been sent forth to the entire world and the generality of mankind.

    Another kind of Prophets are followers and promulgators, not leaders and law-givers, but they are nonetheless the recipients of the hidden inspirations of God. Yet another kind are Prophets Whose prophethood has been limited to a particular locality. But the universal Manifestations are all-encompassing: They are like the root, and all others are as the branches; they are like the sun, and all others are as the moon and the stars.

    Additional Tablets, Extracts and Talks | Bahá’í Reference Library
    I have come to the conclusion that the Bible just leads people astray. Anyone who wants to know the Truth about the Baha’i Faith needs to read the Baha’i Writings. If you want to continue to TRY to make sense out of the Bible you can do so but you will never make sense out of it because it is one big book full of contradictions and it means different things to different people.

    Apparently you think that by analyzing all the Bible scriptures you will eventually arrive at the truth; which religion is right, Judaism, Christianity or the Baha’i Faith? The answer does not lie in the unraveling of scriptures that can never be unraveled. Logically speaking, if the meanings could be unraveled someone would have succeeded in doing so by now. No, the answer as to which religion as practiced is the Truth from God lies within your heart. Your mind will always lead you down one path to another and another and you will remain lost.

    It is not as if Baha’is ignore the Bible scriptures, but that we realize they were not intended to be fully understood, and it does not matter now that we have the Revelation of Baha’u’llah.

    My husband just turned on the TV news: 11 killed in a Jewish Synagogue. This is a hate crime, and why do you think we have hate crimes? We have them because groups are divided, each believing they are the only ones who are right and everyone else is wrong.

    When are people going to wake up and smell the coffee? Humanity cannot continue to be divided between all these different religions forever, each religion believing that they are the Only Way. There is no need to have all these different religions anymore, and there is no solution for bringing them together except for the Baha’i Faith. It is as clear as the noonday sun to me, but adherents to the older religions cannot see the problem because their judgment is so clouded by their emotional attachment to their own religion. Clearly, only the Baha’is care about all of humanity; the other religions might say they care but their beliefs belie their words.
     
  17. OtherSheep

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    Because... 16 comes before 20.

    John 20:21-23 "Then said Jesus to them again, 'Peace [be] unto you: as [My] Father hath sent Me, even so send I you.' And when He had said this, He breathed on [them], and saith unto them, 'Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained.'"


    Matthew 12:31-32 "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come."

    The Holy Spirit was given the same day Jesus was resurrected, see John 20:19.

    ________________________
    It's bad enough that y'all say Jesus' words have passed away, in your changing times and laws theology... but to give some dude the title of Holy Spirit... maaaann... I gotta go think about this...

    IS THAT WHAT ALL YOU PEOPLE THINK? or just your personal theory, TB?
     
  18. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    So you believe that these are the many things that Jesus meant the disciples could not bear?

    Baha’is believe that the many things are what the Spirit of Truth was going to reveal in a future age when the Christ Spirit returned in the Person of Baha’u’llah who was the Comforter and the Spirit of Truth.

    The SAME Bible verses can be interpreted very differently. Why do you think that YOUR interpretation is right and mine is wrong? Who gave you authority to interpret the Bible inerrantly?

    Usual Christian Answer: The Holy Spirit is guiding me so I cannot be wrong.

    Sorry, but that is based upon an interpretation of the Bible that could be wrong which in turn leads to assumptions that could be wrong... and if the interpretation of one verse is wrong all your beliefs come falling down like a house of cards. Hypothetically, even if the Holy Spirit was guiding Christians, which Christians is it guiding, you or the others who interpret the same verses differently than you do? Do you see the problem?
    That is not what those verses mean, it is only what you believe they mean because you think you KNOW what the Comforter and the Spirit of Truth are.

    Here is what I believe those verses mean:

    The Holy Ghost is the Holy Spirit. According to Baha’i beliefs, the Holy Spirit is the light of God. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is detestation of the light of God, the divine perfections. In a sense then it is detestation of God since one hates the divine perfections (God’s qualities).

    Jesus and the other Messengers of God were like lamps that brought the Holy Spirit; they brought the light of God to humanity because they reflected God’s attributes. It is forgivable to hate the lamp, because one might not recognize that the lamp is from God because they might not see the divine perfections of God in the lamp.

    In those verses Jesus said it is unforgivable to hate the Holy Spirit (light of God) and one will not be forgiven in this life or in the afterlife.

    I can only surmise why that is unforgivable. It is a Baha’i belief that heaven and hell are states of the soul, not geographical locations. Heaven is nearness to God and hell is distance from God. It is impossible to come near to God if one is repelled by the light of God because God does not force His love upon anyone. God only draws those near to Him those who reach out for His mercy. If one hates God they will not reach out for God’s mercy and they will thus be distant from God; in such a state they will make their own hell. Maybe that correlates with the unforgivable sin.

    Did it EVER occur to you that you could be wrong in how you interpret the Bible and in how you believe? Did it ever occur to you that Baha’u’llah could actually BE who He claimed to be and what the consequences of not knowing that will be to you after you die? Sure, until you die you can keep waiting for Jesus to return along with all the other Christians but after you die it will be too late to change your mind and realize what you have lost by waiting for something that was never going to happen. I cannot say what the repercussions of that will be because I am not God. All I know is what Baha’u’llah wrote and exactly what that will mean to people in the afterlife has not been specified so it is open to interpretation.

    During the Dispensation of Jesus Christ, those who believed in Jesus had everlasting life, and those who did not believe in Jesus were spiritually dead.

    John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    We are now living in the Dispensation of Baha’u’llah, so those who those who believe in Baha’u’llah will have everlasting life and those who do not believe in Baha’u’llah are as the dead.

    “The Book of God is wide open, and His Word is summoning mankind unto Him. No more than a mere handful, however, hath been found willing to cleave to His Cause, or to become the instruments for its promotion. These few have been endued with the Divine Elixir that can, alone, transmute into purest gold the dross of the world, and have been empowered to administer the infallible remedy for all the ills that afflict the children of men. No man can obtain everlasting life, unless he embraceth the truth of this inestimable, this wondrous, and sublime Revelation.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 183

    “He is indeed as one dead who, at the wondrous dawn of this Revelation, hath failed to be quickened by its soul-stirring breeze. He is indeed a captive who hath not recognized the Supreme Redeemer, but hath suffered his soul to be bound, distressed and helpless, in the fetters of his desires.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 169

    All Christians believe they are right in their Bible interpretation and everyone else is wrong, especially any religion that came after Christianity such as Islam or the Baha’i Faith... But it since Christians cannot even agree on what the scriptures mean it is illogical to think that only one interpretation is RIGHT and all the others are WRONG. However, Christians do not think logically, they think scripturally and since they believe they absolutely KNOW what the scriptures mean inerrantly there is no chance that they will ever see anything differently. They will just continue to wait for Jesus who never promised to return. Nowhere in the New Testament did Jesus ever promise to return. The only way you can believe that is to interpret scriptures to mean what they do not mean.
    That verse does not say that but Baha’is believe that the Holy Spirit was indeed given to the disciples after the death of Christ:

    24: THE DESCENT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT UPON THE APOSTLES
    Baha’is do not believe that Jesus’ words have passed away or that they will ever pass away. Rather, we believe that the religious dispensations of the past have been abrogated by the Revelation of Baha’u’llah. Nevertheless, the Baha’i Faith upholds the eternal spiritual truths of all the religions of the past and recognizes the Divine origin of their Messengers (Prophets) and the sanctity of their original scriptures.

    Baha’is do not give Baha’u’llah the title of the Holy Spirit. The Comforter is not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God. The Comforter was the Divine man who brought the Holy Spirit. Jesus was the Comforter, and Baha’u’llah was another Comforter.

    John 14:16, 18 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

    In short, Baha’is believe that the Holy Spirit comes to humanity via the Manifestations of God such as Jesus and Baha’u’llah.

    “Even as He saith: “Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others. To some God hath spoken, some He hath raised and exalted. And to Jesus, Son of Mary, We gave manifest signs, and We strengthened Him with the Holy Spirit.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 52

    “The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and the luminous rays which emanate from the Manifestations; for the focus of the rays of the Sun of Reality was Christ, and from this glorious focus, which is the Reality of Christ, the Bounty of God reflected upon the other mirrors which were the reality of the Apostles. The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality.”

    Some Answered Questions, p. 108
    That Baha’u’llah was the Comforter is not my just my personal theory. It is what all Baha’is believe because it is who Baha’u’llah claimed to be. In this passage “the Spirit” refers to Jesus:

    “Give ear unto that which the Dove of Eternity warbleth upon the twigs of the Divine Lote-Tree: O peoples of the earth! We sent forth him who was named John to baptize you with water, that your bodies might be cleansed for the appearance of the Messiah. He, in turn, purified you with the fire of love and the water of the spirit in anticipation of these Days whereon the All-Merciful hath purposed to cleanse you with the water of life at the hands of His loving providence. This is the Father foretold by Isaiah, and the Comforter concerning Whom the Spirit had covenanted with you. Open your eyes, O concourse of bishops, that ye may behold your Lord seated upon the Throne of might and glory.

    Say: O peoples of all faiths! Walk not in the ways of them that followed the Pharisees and thus veiled themselves from the Spirit. They truly have strayed and are in error. The Ancient Beauty is come in His Most Great Name, and He wisheth to admit all mankind into His most holy Kingdom. The pure in heart behold the Kingdom of God manifest before His Face. Make haste thereunto and follow not the infidel and the ungodly. Should your eye be opposed thereto, pluck it out. 2 Thus hath it been decreed by the Pen of the Ancient of Days, as bidden by Him Who is the Lord of the entire creation. He, verily, hath come again that ye might be redeemed, O peoples of the earth. Will ye slay Him Who desireth to grant you eternal life? Fear God, O ye who are endued with insight.” The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, pp. 63-64
     
    #98 Trailblazer, Oct 27, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2018
  19. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    So what do you think that verse means? Do you really believe that time stands still and that nothing ever needs to change, that God cannot reveal more Truth to humanity? That is exactly what the Jews believed and that is why they rejected Jesus:

    “And when the days of Moses were ended, and the light of Jesus, shining forth from the Day Spring of the Spirit, encompassed the world, all the people of Israel arose in protest against Him. They clamored that He Whose advent the Bible had foretold must needs promulgate and fulfil the laws of Moses, whereas this youthful Nazarene, who laid claim to the station of the divine Messiah, had annulled the laws of divorce and of the sabbath day—the most weighty of all the laws of Moses. Moreover, what of the signs of the Manifestation yet to come? These people of Israel are even unto the present day still expecting that Manifestation which the Bible hath foretold! How many Manifestations of Holiness, how many Revealers of the light everlasting, have appeared since the time of Moses, and yet Israel, wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy and false imaginings, is still expectant that the idol of her own handiwork will appear with such signs as she herself hath conceived! Thus hath God laid hold of them for their sins, hath extinguished in them the spirit of faith, and tormented them with the flames of the nethermost fire. And this for no other reason except that Israel refused to apprehend the meaning of such words as have been revealed in the Bible concerning the signs of the coming Revelation. As she never grasped their true significance, and, to outward seeming, such events never came to pass, she, therefore, remained deprived of recognizing the beauty of Jesus and of beholding the Face of God. And they still await His coming! From time immemorial even unto this day, all the kindreds and peoples of the earth have clung to such fanciful and unseemly thoughts, and thus have deprived themselves of the clear waters streaming from the springs of purity and holiness...”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 20-21

    Humanity needed a new message so when God sent Jesus, Jesus revealed a new message of personal salvation and new teachings and laws. After Jesus, Muhammad and Baha’u’llah brought a new message, new teaching and laws.

    Jews rejected Jesus because He did not do what they were expecting the Messiah to do according to how they interpreted their scriptures. It is for the same reason that the Jews, Christians and Muslims reject Baha’u’llah. It is all because of the WAY they interpret their scriptures. It never occurs to them that they could be wrong in their interpretations and that the Baha’is could be right. It did not occur to the Jews they could be wrong either and after all this time it still doesn’t. They still believe that the Tanakh/Torah is the final Word of God just like the Christians believe that the New Testament if the final word of God and the Muslims believe that the Qur’an is the final Word of God.

    History repeats itself over and over again, but it will not repeat itself again because Baha’u’llah made it clear that there would be more Prophets that would come after Him and that process of Progressive Revelation will continue for all time.
    Jesus’ words will not ever pass away. Did the Old Testament pass away when the New Testament was revealed? No, it was just a “new” Testament from God. Yet the Jews do not recognize the New Testament, but both the Muslims and the Baha’is do recognize it. The Muslims claimed that the New Testament had been corrupted but Baha’u’llah told them that was utter falsehood and sheer calumny. Addressing the Muslims, Baha’u’llah wrote:

    “Our purpose in relating these things is to warn you that were they to maintain that those verses wherein the signs referred to in the Gospel are mentioned have been perverted, were they to reject them, and cling instead to other verses and traditions, you should know that their words were utter falsehood and sheer calumny. Yea “corruption” of the text, in the sense We have referred to, hath been actually effected in particular instances. A few of these We have mentioned, that it may become manifest to every discerning observer that unto a few untutored holy Men hath been given the mastery of human learning, so that the malevolent opposer may cease to contend that a certain verse doth indicate “corruption” of the text, and insinuate that We, through lack of knowledge, have made mention of such things. Moreover, most of the verses that indicate “corruption” of the text have been revealed with reference to the Jewish people, were ye to explore the isles of Qur’ánic Revelation.”
    The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 88-89
    I do not “skip” the Book of Revelation; I just do not spend my time interpreting it because others have done so for me. Baha’is have written entire books about it and the four Primary Figures of the Baha’i Faith have interpreted many of the verses in the Book of Revelation.

    Apocalypse Secrets: Baha'i Interpretation of the Book of Revelation

    “First and foremost, the four Baha’i Primary-Figures play Revelation’s main roles interpretively. Baha’u’llah plays most, the Bab several, and ‘Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi some. Moreover, their Writings interpret symbols in Revelation, or ones specific to it, along with many of its verses. Baha’u’llah and ‘Abdu’l-Baha read Revelation in the Van Dyck Arabic Bible, and Shoghi Effendi read it in the King James English Bible.

    Baha’u’llah interprets specific Revelation symbols and verses in his Gems of Divine Mysteries. In his Book of Certitude he expansively interprets other Revelation symbols, such as Angel, Beginning and Ending, blood, bride, city, clothes, clouds, dawn-star or day-star, door, earth/world, earthquake, eye, First and Last, gemstone, hand, judgment, King of kings, lamp, life and death, light, moon, ocean/sea, oil, ointment, oppression/hardship, prison, rain, resurrection, return, river, robe, rod, smoke, son of man, sky/heaven, spirit, star, sun, sword, Temple, throne, tomb, tree, trumpet, warning, and water. The verses and symbols explained by Baha’u’llah involve 52% (209 of 404) of the verses of Revelation.

    The Bab addresses Revelation little and then only indirectly. He wrote those twenty letters that helped to identify the first 20 elder-founders, and he interprets radiance of the sun for Baha’u’llah.[4]‑S

    ‘Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi interpret many specific Revelation verses and their symbols. In Some Answered Questions ‘Abdu’l-Baha addresses all Revelation Chapter 11 and much of Chapters 12 and 21. In God Passes By and Promised Day is Come, Shoghi Effendi expands the meanings of many verses. The verses and symbols explained by ‘Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi involve 30% (121 of 404) of the verses of Revelation.

    Overall, Baha’i Writings interpret some or all of 64% (258 of 404) of the verses of Revelation. Adding in verses containing John’s internal interpretations raises the total to 72% (291 of 404) of the verses of Revelation. Since each verse may be interpreted a little or a lot, verse-counting is a crude measure of interpretation but is better than none.


    http://apocalypsesecrets.com/content/baha'i-writings-interpret-revelation
     
  20. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    So where did the religion of the Egyptians come from?
    Ancient Egyptian religion was a complex system of polytheistic beliefs and rituals which were an integral part of ancient Egyptian society. It centered on the Egyptians' interaction with many deities who were believed to be present in, and in control of, the world. Rituals such as prayers and offerings were efforts to provide for the gods and gain their favor. Formal religious practice centered on the pharaoh, the ruler of Egypt, who was believed to possess a divine power by virtue of their position. They acted as the intermediary between their people and the gods and was obligated to sustain the gods through rituals and offerings so that they could maintain order in the universe. ​
    How was their religion different than many other polytheistic religions? How are these religions not a part of a progression toward modern religions?

    How is their mythology not true but that of the "modern" religions is true? But then of course it is not. It is symbolic. So why then is the Egyptian and other similar religions of great empires not true in a symbolic way? And, somebody had to bring or develop these religious beliefs, why not a "prophet/manifestation"?

    Like Baha'is attribute Hinduism to Krishna, but Hinduism is more than what Krishna taught and he didn't start it. It was here long before Krishna, and Hinduism has many polytheistic beliefs. So why reject what Egyptians believed but believe in Hinduism, which had similar polytheistic beliefs? For me, it's all a progression, and religions are all very much related. But, they are also very different. Even the "revealed" ones.

    All ancient religions could very easily be man-made. And all their gods and prophets could be mere myths and legends. But, the religion still, to the believers, seemed true and was taught to the people as true. Moses you say was a manifestation, great. But, did he write the first five books of the Bible? If he did, then was it the truth or a myth that the world was created in six days? Was it myth or truth that there was a world-wide flood? Now, if Moses didn't write it, who did? But then, who wrote the rest of it? Not a manifestation. Maybe not even the prophets whose name is attached to the writing.

    So who then? I think very likely a spiritual leader. But ultimately, to the believer, it was God. It was God who inspired the people that wrote the words, therefore those words of the Word of God. Yet, even Baha'is question the authenticity and then they explain away difficult to believe events by saying those things were only "symbolic". But, my problem with that is, they are presented as historical fact. And, are believed by the followers of that religion as historical fact.

    The Baha'i position allows Baha'is to say they accept the truth of that religion while they also can reject the things that they don't like. Which they then redefine in some figurative way. So was Moses a manifestation or a myth or a legend? You have to say a manifestation, because the Baha'i Faith say he was. But, the Baha'i Faith also say that many of the events surrounding his life, and all the things he supposedly wrote leading up to his life were "symbolic". Or, like I like to say, a myth.

    No, Moses didn't part the sea. No, his walking stick didn't come to life as a snake. No, mana didn't appear every morning in the desert for the people to eat. No, all the plagues that befell the Egyptians didn't happen. And no, just because the Hebrews painted lamb's blood on their door posts the plague moved on and didn't harm them.

    And now, back to Isaiah, do you have a comment on the verses beyond Isaiah 7:14? I don't see how Baha'is or Christians can single out one verse and make it a prophecy about Jesus being born of a Virgin, when none of the rest of the signs given have anything to do with Jesus. So who do the rest of the signs pertain to? I think it was a kid, at the time of Isaiah. And, if that kid fulfilled the other signs, then he must have fulfilled the sign of being born of a "virgin" too... or maybe the word used there could and should be translated "young woman". What do you think?
     
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