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Featured Which Messianic verses of Isaiah refer to Christ?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Dawnofhope, Oct 12, 2018.

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  1. Yes, there are Messianic verses in Isaiah and all refer to Christ

    36.0%
  2. Yes, there are Messianic verses in Isaiah and at least one or more refers to Christ

    20.0%
  3. Yes, there are Messianic verses in Isaiah but none refer to Christ

    28.0%
  4. There are no Messianic verses in Isaiah

    8.0%
  5. I don’t know

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. This poll doesn’t reflect my thoughts

    8.0%
  1. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Baha'is believe that the Kingdom of God is in the early stages of being built.

    It is going to take everyone working together to establish the Kingdom of God, Baha’is will not be the only builders. However, we play an integral part because we have the "blueprint instructions" from Baha’u’llah and many people are already following those instructions never having even seen them. It will take a long time for it to be built, and it will usher in the long awaited Golden Age of humanity as promised in the Bible and the scriptures of other religions.

    “God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it......” The Promised Day is Come, p. 116

    The Kingdom of God is also referred to by Baha'is as the "new world order." The old world order will be torn down in order to build up the new world order. All one has to do is look at world news to see that the tearing down process has been happening for some time and it has recently escalated.

    “This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness. It behoveth them to cleave to whatsoever will, in this Day, be conducive to the exaltation of their stations, and to the promotion of their best interests. Happy are those whom the all-glorious Pen was moved to remember, and blessed are those men whose names, by virtue of Our inscrutable decree, We have preferred to conceal.

    Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 6-7
     
  2. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    The entire Old Testament is full of prophecies that refer to the Messiah. Some of these prophecies refer to Jesus but most of them do not refer to Jesus because Jesus did not fulfill those prophecies.

    Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

    These prophecies cannot refer to Jesus because Jesus disclaimed being the Mighty God when He called Himself “the Son of God” (John 5:18-47) and in those verses Jesus repudiates the charge that He claimed equality with God. Jesus disclaimed being the everlasting Father when He said, “my Father is greater than I” (John 14:28) and Jesus disclaimed being the Prince of Peace when He said, “I came not to send peace, but a sword” (Matthew 10:34). Jesus disclaimed bearing the government upon His shoulder when He said to “rend onto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's” (Mark 12:17, Matthew 22:21). Jesus disclaimed that He would establish a kingdom where he would rule with judgment and justice forever when He said, “My kingdom is not of this world” (John 18:36).

    Regarding the increase of his government, peace with no end, sitting upon the throne of David and establishing the Kingdom of God on earth with judgment and justice, most Christians believe that Jesus will do these things when He returns, but Jesus never promised to return to earth. Jesus said His work was finished here and He was no more in this world (John 17:4, 11).

    In the New Testament, there are many verses wherein Jesus said we would see the Son of man coming in the clouds. Christians believe those verses refer to Jesus. The title Son of man ultimately comes from the Book of Daniel, where it refers to the Messiah, and is frequently used in the Gospels as a title of Jesus. Presumably the title is symbolic of the perfect humanity that Jesus represented.

    Jesus was the Son of man but that title does not belong exclusively to Jesus. Jesus was a Messiah, but He was not the Messiah of the Old Testament/Tanakh who will establish the Kingdom of God on earth.

    When Jesus said we would see the Son of man coming in the clouds Jesus was not referring to Himself. The Son of man refers to the return of Christ Spirit in another man who would be the Messiah that the Jews and all other religions were waiting for.

    There are no verses in the Bible that speaks of the same Jesus returning. There is not one Bible verse wherein Jesus says He is returning to earth. Christians misinterpret verses in order to support their beliefs that Jesus is returning. This is simply a Christian hope that has been passed down through the generations.

    Isaiah 11:6-9 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

    These verses mean that in the future diverse religions and races will become comrades, friends and companions. The contentions of races, the differences of religions, and the barriers between nations will be completely removed, and all will attain perfect union and reconciliation. Eventually, there will be only one religion, the religion of God.

    Clearly, Jesus did not fulfill Isaiah 11:6-9 but Jesus promised that Isaiah 11:6-9 would be fulfilled in the future.

    John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
     
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  3. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    You are right. The religious leaders in ancient times no doubt believed their scriptures were factual... Indeed, the religious leaders of today still believe that their scriptures are factual, although many religious followers have questioned these beliefs and fallen away from them, choosing instead to see at least some of the scriptures as figurative rather than literal.
    To be honest, I cannot say I know what God commanded in the Bible... I only know what God has commanded in the Baha'i Faith.
    To be honest, I do not give a rip what the Bible says because it is a hornet's nest and it is impossible to sort out and understand what was meant by many verses. I only care what the Bahai Faith teaches because we have the original writings of all the primary figures of the Faith. Shoghi Effendi wrote that we uphold the Virgin Birth so that is what I believe. It is no big deal to me that Jesus was born miraculously. Why would it be? The Manifestations of God performed many miracles because they were God-men.

    1637. Christ, Virgin Birth of

    "First regarding the birth of Jesus Christ. In light of what Bahá’u’lláh and ‘Abdu’l-Bahá have stated concerning this subject it is evident that Jesus came into this world through the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit, and that consequently His birth was quite miraculous. This is an established fact, and the friends need not feel at all surprised, as the belief in the possibility of miracles has never been rejected in the Teachings. Their importance, however, has been minimized."
    (From a letter dated December 31, 1937 written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer)

    1639. Bahá’í Teachings in Agreement with Doctrines of Catholic Church Concerning the Virgin Birth

    "With regard to your question concerning the Virgin Birth of Jesus: On this point, as on several others, the Bahá’í Teachings are in full agreement with the doctrines of the Catholic Church. In the 'Kitáb-i-Íqán' (Book of Certitude) p. 56, and in a few other Tablets still unpublished, Bahá’u’lláh confirms, however indirectly, the Catholic conception of the Virgin Birth. Also ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in the 'Some Answered Questions', Chap. XII, p. 73, explicitly states that 'Christ found existence through the Spirit of God' which statement necessarily implies, when viewed in the light of the text, that Jesus was not the son of Joseph."
    (From a letter dated October 14, 1945 written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer)

    Lights of Guidance/Christ - Bahaiworks, a library of works about the Bahá’í Faith
     
  4. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Your "new world order", is just a unification of the old world order, which includes the media and the kings of the whole world (Revelation 16:13-16), and it is being unified in order to be "crushed" all "at the same time" by the stone cut without hands (Daniel 2:35 & 45). The crushing of your "new world order" will follow the "capture" of "Jerusalem" (Zechariah 14:1-3).
     
  5. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Considering the Gospel of John is made up to discredit Yeshua to the Jews, and you're using it to debunk him; proves why God has allowed the Great Deception to happen, to remove the hypocrites who don't pay attention.
    Matthew 23:39 For I tell you, you will not see me from now on, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

    Luke 13:35 Behold, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

    There are multiple verses that imply it, and if we studied prophecy properly we'd see that.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
    #125 wizanda, Nov 1, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
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  6. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Isaiah speaks about Israel. Throughout Isaiah, there is reference to "my servant Jacob" and "my servant Israel." When it speaks of a servant, there is no reason to think it is any other servant.
     
  7. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    I’m always fascinated by how the Jews and Christians have an entirely different perspective on the sacred writings they both believe in. What’s more important is peoples of different faiths being kind to each other rather than agreeing on the details of Messianic scripture. My take is that of all books in the Tanakh, Isaiah appears the most significantly Messianic. Agree on that and details can be worked through later.
     
  8. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    There are messianic parts of Isaiah, such as in chapter 2 and 11. But the bulk of Isaiah has nothing to do with the Messiah. Chapter 53 specifically has to do with the "servant" which we know from other chapters is Israel, not some future messiah.
     
  9. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Well, my whole point is that I think Christians have taken Isaiah 7:14 out of context. Plus, there are issues with the word translated as "virgin". So you might not give a "rip" about it, but is of some importance. Since somebody is full of %&*#. And, I don't think it's the Jews. But, for the Christians, what's more important? That Jesus was born of a Virgin or that he conquered death and rose from the grave? For me, if he didn't rise again, then forget Christianity. It's a meaningless religion.

    Why bother throwing them a bone with the Virgin Birth being true? Who cares? If he didn't literally heal the sick of leprosy and other things. If he didn't walk on water. If he didn't turn water into wine. If he didn't command the winds of a storm to stop, and they did. Then there is nothing true or worth believing in the NT. Jesus would be nothing but a myth and a legend. But, Baha'i don't belief that. They believe he is a manifestation... and that everything he did is make believe.
     
  10. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Apparently, like all Christians, you believe you know what all the OT and NT verses mean so you think you know what is going to happen in the future. Obviously, all Christians cannot be right because they disagree, but they all believe they are right.

    I never try to talk people out of their beliefs. People are free to believe whatever they want to because God gave us free will. God expects us to use our innate powers to determine what the Truth from God is.

    I am not going to pretend I know what all the Bible verses mean. In some cases I know, if they are verses that have obviously been fulfilled by Baha’u’llah, and in those cases I also know how they were fulfilled. Many of these OT and NT verses and the explanations of how they were fulfilled are in the book entitled Thief in the Night.

    A Baha’i interpretation of Revelation is in this book:
    Apocalypse Secrets: Baha'i Interpretation of the Book of Revelation

    “First and foremost, the four Baha’i Primary-Figures play Revelation’s main roles interpretively. Baha’u’llah plays most, the Bab several, and ‘Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi some. Moreover, their Writings interpret symbols in Revelation, or ones specific to it, along with many of its verses. Baha’u’llah and ‘Abdu’l-Baha read Revelation in the Van Dyck Arabic Bible, and Shoghi Effendi read it in the King James English Bible.

    Overall, Baha’i Writings interpret some or all of 64% (258 of 404) of the verses of Revelation. Adding in verses containing John’s internal interpretations raises the total to 72% (291 of 404) of the verses of Revelation. Since each verse may be interpreted a little or a lot, verse-counting is a crude measure of interpretation but is better than none.”
     
  11. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    So in your view, anyone who does not believe that ONLY Jesus is the Lord for all time and eternity has been deceived?

    You are free to have your opinions but that is just your theory, just as all Christians have their theories, all of which differ. As far as the Gospel of John is concerned, I believe much of it is accurate. Shoghi Effendi wrote the following:

    ...we cannot be sure how much or how little of the four Gospels are accurate and include the words of Christ and His undiluted teachings, all we can be sure of, as Bahá'ís, is that what has been quoted by Bahá'u'lláh and the Master must be absolutely authentic. As many times passages in the Gospel of St. John are quoted we may assume that it is his Gospel and much of it accurate.
    (23 January 1944 to an individual believer)


    From: The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments
    It was Baha’u’llah who came in the name of the Lord.

    “O Pope! Rend the veils asunder. He Who is the Lord of Lords is come overshadowed with clouds, and the decree hath been fulfilled by God, the Almighty, the Unrestrained. Dispel the mists through the power of thy Lord, and ascend unto the Kingdom of His names and attributes. Thus hath the Pen of the Most High commanded thee at the behest of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Compelling. He, verily, hath again come down from Heaven even as He came down from it the first time. Beware that thou dispute not with Him even as the Pharisees disputed with Him without a clear token or proof. On His right hand flow the living waters of grace, and on His left the choice Wine of justice, whilst before Him march the angels of Paradise, bearing the banners of His signs. Beware lest any name debar thee from God, the Creator of earth and heaven. Leave thou the world behind thee, and turn towards thy Lord, through Whom the whole earth hath been illumined......”
    The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, pp. 54-55

    “Give ear unto that which the Dove of Eternity warbleth upon the twigs of the Divine Lote-Tree: O peoples of the earth! We sent forth him who was named John to baptize you with water, that your bodies might be cleansed for the appearance of the Messiah. He, in turn, purified you with the fire of love and the water of the spirit in anticipation of these Days whereon the All-Merciful hath purposed to cleanse you with the water of life at the hands of His loving providence. This is the Father foretold by Isaiah, and the Comforter concerning Whom the Spirit had covenanted with you. Open your eyes, O concourse of bishops, that ye may behold your Lord seated upon the Throne of might and glory.” The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 63

    When Baha’u’llah appeared, humanity saw the Spirit of Christ, not His physical body.
    In the following passage, WE refers to Jesus and Baha’u’llah since they are the same Spirit of God.

    “WE, verily, have come for your sakes, and have borne the misfortunes of the world for your salvation. Flee ye the One Who hath sacrificed His life that ye may be quickened? Fear God, O followers of the Spirit (Jesus), and walk not in the footsteps of every divine that hath gone far astray… Open the doors of your hearts. He Who is the Spirit (Jesus) verily, standeth before them. Wherefore keep ye afar from Him Who hath purposed to draw you nigh unto a Resplendent Spot? Say: We, in truth, have opened unto you the gates of the Kingdom. Will ye bar the doors of your houses in My face? This indeed is naught but a grievous error.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 92
    The verses only imply it to people who already believe it is the same Jesus who is going to return.

    There are multiple verses that can be interpreted multiple ways but there are no verses wherein Jesus said He is going to return to earth in the same body. Any verses that refer to Jesus returning are referring to the Spirit of Christ returning because the same Jesus in the same body did not float off into the sky to heaven to return at a later date. This is a fantasy of astronomical proportions which came about as a result of the false Church doctrines, including the resurrection and ascension. One fantasy belief leads to another.

    Aside from buying off on the Church doctrines, the obvious reason Christians believe it will be the same physical body of Jesus that returns is because they are emotionally attached to the personality of Jesus as He is depicted in the NT. It does not require an advanced degree in psychology to figure this out although I have one.

    Christians just want the same Jesus to return. They want his body, not His Spirit, which is the real essence of who He was and still is in the spiritual realm of existence. The very fact that Christians are so attached to the body of Jesus just shows how little they know about what Jesus actually taught. Jesus never ascribed any importance to His physical body or any physical body but rather He spoke of the Spirit, over and over again.

    Luke 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

    John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

    1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

    What then went wrong that caused Christians to worship a physical body? It is called the resurrection. Everything went south because of that belief.

    The Church completely distorted the meanings of OT and NT verses and created the false doctrines of the Church. Paul put the icing on the cake, so what we have is a false religion called Christianity.
     
  12. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    There is an additional yod on the word blemished in the dead sea scrolls on Isaiah 52:13-14... Which makes the wording paraphrasing 'my exalted servant David I have anointed, etc' in Psalms 89:20-21.
    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
    #132 wizanda, Nov 2, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018
  13. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    The Lord (Yahavah - Lord To Manifest) became Yehoshua (Lord To Save), who then becomes a new name that is referenced by symbolism the same... King Zion Elohim (Isaiah 52:7, Psalms 146:10).
    The new name can not be Baha'u'llah; as it has to fit the name of the New Jerusalem, which is Zion, name of the father in many cultures globally, and new name of Christ which is Sananda.
    Here is a growing list showing over 30 points wrong within the Gospel of John; which makes most of it made up.
    The Lord has a plan stipulated by the Law, Psalms, Prophets, and himself in the form of Yeshua; if somebody doesn't get this plan, they're clearly not the same being. - Personally known since before 4 years old.
    Nothing went wrong, the prophets warn of four craftsmen that make an idol, that causes the Abomination of Desolation; yet they also warn, not to put our trust in princes or in the son of man, instead in the God Most High who is beyond form.... It is all a test to catch out demons down near Hell, who don't pay attention.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
    #133 wizanda, Nov 2, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018
  14. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    David was a messiah (an annointed one ) "little m." One of the things that happens with Jews when you mention the messiah is that we'll ask, Which one.
     
  15. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Much of Isaiah has to do with the Messiah, but for now I want to address only Chapter 53.

    With all due respect, Baha’is believe that all of Chapter 53 has to do with the Messiah, and it was fulfilled by Baha’u’llah.

    The following is an excerpt from: Thief in the Night, pp. 156-160

    There in the valley of ‘Akká, in sight of holy ‘Carmel’, the entire prophecy of the fifty-third chapter of Isaiah was brought to its fulfilment.

    Isaiah had foretold:

    1. “He is despised and rejected of men: a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief …” Isaiah 53:3.

    • Bahá’u’lláh was rejected by his own countrymen, and was sent into exile. His life was filled with grief and sorrow.
    2. “We hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.” Isaiah 53:3.
    • The Emperor Franz Joseph passed within but a short distance of the prison in which Bahá’u’lláh was captive. Louis Napoleon cast behind his back the letter which Bahá’u’lláh sent to him, saying: “If this man is of God, then I am two Gods!” The people of the world have followed in their footsteps.
    3. “Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows …” Isaiah 53:4.
    • I read the following words of Bahá’u’lláh concerning his persecution and imprisonment: “Though weariness lay Me low, and hunger consume Me, and the bare rock be My bed, and My fellows the beasts of the field, I will not complain, but will endure patiently … and will render thanks unto God under all conditions … We pray that, out of His bounty—exalted be He—He may release, through this imprisonment, the necks of men from chains and fetters…” The Promised Day is Come, Shoghi Effendi, pp. 42–3.
    The prophecy of Isaiah continues:

    4. “But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.” Isaiah 53:5

    • Bahá’u’lláh was twice stoned, once scourged, thrice poisoned, scarred with hundred-pound chains which cut through his flesh and rested upon the bones of his shoulders. He lived a prisoner and an exile for nearly half a century.
    5. “He was taken from prison and from judgement …” Isaiah 53:8
    • Bahá’u’lláh was taken from the black-pit prison in Tihrán for judgement before the authorities. His death was expected hourly, but he was banished to ‘Iráq and finally to Israel. In the prison-city of ‘Akká, on another occasion, “… the Governor, at the head of his troops, with drawn swords, surrounded (Bahá’u’lláh’s) house. The entire populace, as well as the military authorities, were in a state of great agitation. The shouts and clamour of the people could be heard on all sides. Bahá’u’lláh was peremptorily summoned to the Governorate, interrogated, kept in custody the first night … The Governor, soon after, sent word that he was at liberty to return to his home, and apologized for what had occurred.” God Passes By, Shoghi Effendi, pp. 190–191.
    6. “And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death …” Isaiah 53:9.
    • Bahá’u’lláh was buried in the precincts of the Mansion of Bahjí, owned by a wealthy Muslim. He was surrounded by enemies; members of his own family who betrayed his trust after his death and dwelt in homes adjacent to his burial-place.
    7. “… he shall see his seed …” Isaiah 53:10.
    • Bahá’u’lláhdid see his ‘seed’. He wrote a special document called the Book of the Covenant, in which he appointed his eldest son to be the Centre of his Faith after his own passing. This very event was also foretold in the prophecies of the Psalms that proclaim:
    • “Also I will make him my first-born higher than the kings of the earth … and my covenant shall stand fast with him.” Psalms 89:27, 28
    • The ‘first-born’ son of Bahá’u’lláh, was named ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, which means ‘the servant of Bahá’(‘u’lláh). Bahá’u’lláh appointed him as his own successor in his Will and Testament. He called ‘Abdu’l-Bahá the Centre of his Covenant.
    8. Isaiah’s prophecy continues:
    “He (God) shall prolong his days …” Isaiah 53:10.

    • Bahá’u’lláh’s days were prolonged. He was born in 1817 and passed away in the Holy Land in 1892. In the last years of his life, Bahá’u’lláh was released from his prison cell. He came out of the prison-city of ‘Akká and walked on the sides of Mount Carmel. His followers came from afar to be with him, and to surround him with their love, fulfilling the words of the prayer of David spoken within a cave: “Bring my soul out of prison, that I may praise thy name: the righteous shall compass me about; for thou shalt deal bountifully with me.” Psalms 142:7.
    • These events in the valley of ‘Akká with its strong fortress prison had been foreshadowed in Ecclesiastes 4:14: “ For out of prison he cometh to reign; whereas also he that is born in his kingdom becometh poor.”
     
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  16. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Hmmmmmm..... It is kind of funny you mention this because on another forum I used to frequent there are Christians and Jews who do battle. One of their battles was over the Virgin Birth.... Was Mary just a young woman or was she a Virgin? Well, of course this means something to Christians that she was a Virgin because then they can say that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, and that places Jesus in a unique category, above any would-be Prophets or Manifestations of God. However, as you now, Baha’is do not view the Virgin Birth that way, we simply see it as a miracle and not something that elevates Jesus to a higher status.

    There are two things that Christians believe that makes Jesus “special” and makes Christianity “unique.”

    1. The Virgin Birth, and
    2. The Resurrection

    The Virgin Birth makes Jesus special because that means that God was the father of Jesus, making Jesus more than an ordinary Prophet or Manifestation of God (or so they believe).

    The Resurrection makes Jesus (and Christianity) special because it means that Jesus conquered the grave, but why is that so important? It is important (to Christians) because it means two things:

    1. Jesus is still alive, Jesus ascended to heaven and Jesus is alive in heaven, so Jesus can return to earth again. (All of this refers to the body of Jesus, the same man Jesus who walked the earth 2000 years ago).
    2. Because Jesus rose from the grave that means that when Jesus returns faithful Christians will also rise from their graves. So that means that they also defeat death and have a glorified physical body forever, or so they believe.

    But you are right, without the resurrection, Christianity would be just another religion with a Manifestation of God who had a given mission and teachings He brought to humanity.
    You are such a funny man, and I don’t mean that in a negative way. :)
    Baha’is are not throwing Christians a bone, we really believe in the Virgin Birth. We also believe Jesus could perform miracles but not every miracle in the NT was a literal miracle, some of it is symbolic.

    “The meaning is not that the Manifestations are unable to perform miracles, for They have all power. But for Them inner sight, spiritual healing and eternal life are the valuable and important things. Consequently, whenever it is recorded in the Holy Books that such a one was blind and recovered his sight, the meaning is that he was inwardly blind, and that he obtained spiritual vision, or that he was ignorant and became wise, or that he was negligent and became heedful, or that he was worldly and became heavenly.”
    Some Answered Questions, pp. 101-102

    I do not think that Jesus literally walked on water or turned water into wine, or raised people from the dead. Regarding leprosy, Baha’u’llah explained the symbolic meaning:

    “Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 86

    Why do you think that if Jesus did not turn water into wine or command the winds of a storm to stop that there is nothing true or worth believing in the NT? Why would that make Jesus nothing but a myth and a legend? Couldn’t Jesus still have been a Manifestation of God who had an important mission on earth?
     
  17. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    No one could know the “new name” of Christ except the one who received it:

    Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

    It is as I said before.... everyone thinks they KNOW, and nobody is even willing to consider that they could be wrong about what they think they know.

    What people believe about the Messiah is ALL based upon their personal interpretation of the Tanakh or the Bible, but since people interpret those differently, logically speaking we know they cannot all be right... so who is right and who is wrong? Everyone thinks they are right but that does not make them right... One interpretation is right and that means the others are wrong since there cannot be more than one Messiah.

    To me it is obvious, it has been for 48 years, and no evidence has come in since then that can disprove that Baha’u’llah was the Messiah and the Return of Christ, certainly not various contradictory personal Bible interpretations people conjure up. But everyone has to make their own choices for which I am not responsible. We all have free will so we are all responsible for our own choices... All I can say to people is that they are waiting for something that has already happened... I find that really sad, but there is nothing I can do about it. People are either open-minded and they are searching for Truth or they think they already know it... there is no in between category of person, although there are people who are just disinterested.

    “The time foreordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation. Happy is the man that pondereth in his heart that which hath been revealed in the Books of God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Meditate upon this, O ye beloved of God, and let your ears be attentive unto His Word, so that ye may, by His grace and mercy, drink your fill from the crystal waters of constancy, and become as steadfast and immovable as the mountain in His Cause.

    In the Book of Isaiah it is written: “Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of His majesty.” No man that meditateth upon this verse can fail to recognize the greatness of this Cause, or doubt the exalted character of this Day—the Day of God Himself. This same verse is followed by these words: “And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that Day.” This is the Day which the Pen of the Most High hath glorified in all the holy Scriptures. There is no verse in them that doth not declare the glory of His holy Name, and no Book that doth not testify unto the loftiness of this most exalted theme. Were We to make mention of all that hath been revealed in these heavenly Books and holy Scriptures concerning this Revelation, this Tablet would assume impossible dimensions. It is incumbent in this Day, upon every man to place his whole trust in the manifold bounties of God, and arise to disseminate, with the utmost wisdom, the verities of His Cause. Then, and only then, will the whole earth be enveloped with the morning light of His Revelation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 12-14
     
  18. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    And Christians also believe it is messianic and that it is fulfilled by Jesus so it appears a line is forming.

    However, as I said, in previous chapters, the servant is already identified as Israel.
     
    #138 IndigoChild5559, Nov 2, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2018
  19. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Who cares if a line is forming? Christians can say that Jesus fulfilled Isaiah 53:3-5, but there is no way they can say Jesus fulfilled Isaiah 53:8-10. So, the only way that Jesus could be the Messiah would be if Jesus fulfilled these prophecies upon His Return. Is Jesus going to have children and “see His seed” as Baha’u’llah did?

    Then there is the slight little problem of Mount Carmel... How did the World Centre of the Baha’i Faith get there? Why is it there? Is Jesus going to tear it all down and build His own buildings when He returns to rule the world as Christians believe He will?

    The name Bahá'u'lláh means the Glory of God in Arabic.

    The following excerpt is from William Sears, Thief in the Night

    Isaiah prophesied that the Plain of Sharon and the holy mountain, Carmel, would both be centres for the light and presence of the ‘Glory of the Lord’ in the last days. He said:

    “The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.” (Isaiah 35:1).

    “It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.” (Isaiah 35:2).

    “And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.” (Isaiah 35:10).

    Again in the chapter preceding the one in which he, Isaiah, promises that God will raise up a ‘righteous man from the East’, he foretells:

    “And the Glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of God hath spoken it.” Isaiah 40:5.

    "In that same year (1890) Bahá’u’lláh’s tent, the “Tabernacle of Glory,” was raised on Mt. Carmel, “the Hill of God and His Vineyard,” the home of Elijah, extolled by Isaiah as the “mountain of the Lord,” to which “all nations shall flow.” Four times He visited Haifa, His last visit being no less than three months long. In the course of one of these visits, when His tent was pitched in the vicinity of the Carmelite Monastery, He, the “Lord of the Vineyard,” revealed the Tablet of Carmel, remarkable for its allusions and prophecies. On another occasion He pointed out Himself to ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, as He stood on the slopes of that mountain, the site which was to serve as the permanent resting-place of the Báb, and on which a befitting mausoleum was later to be erected." (God Passes By, p. 194)

    Above Haifa, Israel, stands Mt. Carmel, proclaiming the Glory of the Lord has come.


    Who has identified the servant as Israel and why are they right?
     
  20. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    With enough research of the Tanakh, it specifies exactly what it is on about; yet people are not wise enough to do exegesis properly ('Zand').

    So for example: Isaiah 52:10 says it is specifically about Yeshuat Eloheinu (Yeshua Elohim)...

    This wording is expanded from Exodus 15:2, Psalms 118, Isaiah 12:2 and Psalms 98 where the Lord said he would become Yeshua (Salvation - H3444).

    The name Yehoshua is specific: As Moses renamed Hosea, Yehoshua Son of Nun, as he will lead the people into the promised land; the same with Yehoshua son of Yehozadek, who led them back from the Babylonian Exile.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
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