1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Which is more likely? Dead blood cells with squishy tissue are millions of years old or not?

Discussion in 'Evolution Vs. Creationism' started by whirlingmerc, Jun 17, 2019.

  1. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    4,066
    Ratings:
    +730
    Religion:
    Christian
    Screen Shot 2019-06-17 at 10.42.02 PM.png Screen Shot 2019-06-17 at 10.42.26 PM.png

    Now that there are numerous cases of blood cells and soft squishy tissue found inside dinosaur bones, is it more likely they are >= 65 millions of years old <<< 65 million years old?

    or even 0.2 billion year old tissue? sounds like a stretch?
    Ancient tissue found in 195 million-year-old dinosaur rib - CNN

    But what would Occum and his razor sharp decision maker say about all this? tissue is young? after all 0.2 billion years old seems a bit old for dinosaur tissue to last? or is it yearly much younger?
     
    #1 whirlingmerc, Jun 17, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
  2. Left Coast

    Left Coast Active Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2019
    Messages:
    827
    Ratings:
    +621
    Religion:
    None
    I notice you post a lot of science and evolution-related OPs. Have you ever asked a scientist in a relevant field these questions? A paleontologist would be a perfect person to ask the question in your OP. Have you ever tried? Maybe audit a class at a local college? If you are serious about getting answers to your questions that's where you should go, not post on a religion forum for laypeople.
     
    • Winner Winner x 8
    • Like Like x 3
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  3. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    4,066
    Ratings:
    +730
    Religion:
    Christian

    Hmmm... So you're fine with soft tissue that managed to survive 0.2 billion years?
     
  4. Left Coast

    Left Coast Active Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2019
    Messages:
    827
    Ratings:
    +621
    Religion:
    None
    Hmmm....so you're fine with asking a layperson with no formal training in paleontology that question? :shrug: Ever planning to ask a professional?
     
    • Like Like x 5
  5. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    11,010
    Ratings:
    +3,370
    Religion:
    Christian
    • Informative Informative x 3
    • Like Like x 2
  6. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    28,958
    Ratings:
    +16,214
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Nothing there that I could see about blood cells being found. All they found was collagen and proteins and calling that "soft tissue" has always been a little bit of a stretch.

    "Researchers discovered ancient collagen and protein remains preserved in the ribs of a dinosaur that walked the Earth 195 million years ago."

    In fact they said that they did not find blood cells, they found:

    "Hematite samples, represented by dark red dots, were also found in the vascular canals. Hematite is a mineral that can be derived from iron-rich hemoglobin, the protein molecule in red blood cells that transports oxygen from the lungs to tissues."

    In case you were wondering hematite is a very simple molecule. Its formula is Fe2O3. Blood cells are just a tinnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnny bit more complex than that.
     
    • Informative Informative x 5
    • Like Like x 3
    • Winner Winner x 1
  7. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    4,066
    Ratings:
    +730
    Religion:
    Christian

    tiny red dots in vascular canals sounds a bit more like soft tissue to me
    and 0.2 billion years old?

    Sounds mighty old.
    Screen Shot 2019-06-17 at 10.42.26 PM.png
     
  8. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    28,958
    Ratings:
    +16,214
    Religion:
    Atheist
    The tiny red dots appear to be the hematite. That cells would leave behind a chemical trace is not unreasonable. They are not cells. And the preservation of collagen has been explained.


    You should be trying to learn how we know that fossils of this sort are many millions of years old instead of reflexively grasping at straws.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Winner Winner x 1
  9. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    4,066
    Ratings:
    +730
    Religion:
    Christian

    Some might say trying to claim soft tissue is 0.2 billion years old is grasping at straws.
     
  10. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2014
    Messages:
    6,463
    Ratings:
    +4,811
    I don’t know. The site provided by sooda seemed to explain it relatively well. And I’m pretty ignorant of paleontology.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  11. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    28,958
    Ratings:
    +16,214
    Religion:
    Atheist

    Only the terribly ignorant would make such a claim. Once again, you should try to learn how we know those dates.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2012
    Messages:
    8,573
    Ratings:
    +8,033
    Religion:
    Pluralist Hindu
    A soft tissue can survive 5 trillion years as well. Soft has nothing to do with longevity when the encased rock is liquid tight.The question is whether the encased rock is of the right composition/structure to preserve liquid remains...which it always is whenever these soft tissues are found.
    As our technology improves, we would be able to extract chemical biomolecules from even the oldest of rocks (4 billion years old) including may be fully preserved cells (hopefully). It just a question of carefully looking and delicate extraction methods. Maybe even resuscitation of billion-year-old microscopic lifeforms may become possible.
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  13. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2014
    Messages:
    6,463
    Ratings:
    +4,811
    Whoah!
    It’s so awesome to see how improvements to technology expand our scientific knowledge.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  14. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2012
    Messages:
    8,573
    Ratings:
    +8,033
    Religion:
    Pluralist Hindu
    https://phys.org/news/2018-11-toast-proteins-dinosaur-bones.html

    We took on the challenge of understanding protein fossilization," said Yale paleontologist Jasmina Wiemann, the study's lead author. "We tested 35 samples of fossil bones, eggshells, and teeth to learn whether they preserve proteinaceous soft tissues, find out their chemical composition, and determine under what conditions they were able to survive for millions of years."

    The researchers discovered that soft tissues are preserved in samples from oxidative environments such as sandstones and shallow, marine limestones. The soft tissues were transformed into Advanced Glycoxidation and Lipoxidation end products (AGEs and ALEs), which are resistant to decay and degradation. They're also structurally comparable to chemical compounds that stain the dark crust on toast.

    The compounds are hydrophobic, which means they are resistant to the normal effects of water, and have properties that make it difficult for bacteria to consume them.

    They applied Raman microspectroscopy—a non-destructive method for analyzing both the inorganic and organic contents of a sample—to the extracted fossil soft tissues. During this process, laser energy directed at the tissue causes molecular vibrations that carry spectral fingerprints for the chemicals that are present.

    "The payoff is a way of targeting settings in the field where this preservation is likely to occur, expanding an important source of evidence of the biology and ecology of ancient vertebrates.

     
    • Informative Informative x 5
  15. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,030
    Ratings:
    +5,412
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    What you describe as 'squishy?' is not 'squishy,' and is fossilized as described in the more accurate scientific references cited.

    Apparently you are still looking for rabbits in Cambrian rocks. Keep this up and you will be castrated by Occum's razor.
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
  16. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,030
    Ratings:
    +5,412
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    'Sounds to you?' Do you mean the squeaky sounds you are making without any scientific reference.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  17. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2015
    Messages:
    6,683
    Ratings:
    +2,512
    Religion:
    Atheist
    The poster did not say that. Did not even imply that.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  18. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2010
    Messages:
    3,590
    Ratings:
    +1,938
    Religion:
    None
    The actual Occam’s Razor isn’t really relevant to this question. The common misrepresentation of it - that the simplest explanation is the most likely - would only apply if you had a specific simpler explanation to offer. So what is your detailed explanation for “soft tissue” being found within apparently ancient fossils?
     
    • Like Like x 4
  19. Left Coast

    Left Coast Active Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2019
    Messages:
    827
    Ratings:
    +621
    Religion:
    None
    • Like Like x 1
  20. tas8831

    tas8831 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2018
    Messages:
    2,695
    Ratings:
    +2,225
    Please demonstrate that EVERY fossil has 'soft tissue' in it, as should be the case if the YEC timeline has merit, given your apparent position on this.

    If nearly every fossil does NOT have 'soft tissue' in it, whatever shall we conclude? What would Occam's razor have us do?
     
Loading...