Which came first: Religion or Agriculture?

[Falvlun]

I was reading an interesting article in Nat Geo about Gobekli Tepi, an ancient temple found in Turkey believed to be the earliest known temple in human history.

Its existence provides tantalizing evidence that perhaps the origins of religion and agriculture are reversed from what is usually assumed. The traditional hypotheis is that religion arose after agriculture as a means to coordinate the actions and relieve the tensions of larger groups of poeple.

Since the temple was made by hunter-gatherers, and is religious in nature, it demonstrates the existence of religion slightly before the agricultural revolution. The reverse hypothesis is then presented: Humans developed religious concepts, which brought them together for religious rituals. A lot of humans drawn to one spot for any duration of time would require a steadier, more abundant supply of food, which eventually led to the development of agriculture.

Which do you think came first? Does this temple change the way you view things? If the religion-first hypothesis is true, what caused these religious concepts to arise?

 

[Sunstone]

A key question is whether the people who built Göbekli Tepe used religion to justify whatever social order they had. We know from some of the earliest Sumerian writings that religion was being used as an ideological prop for a leisured class of rulers. But we really don't know how religion was being used at Göbekli Tepe, and we may never know.

 

[Karl R]

According to wikipedia, agriculture dates back to the the neolithic era (7,000-10,000 years ago), while evidence of religious behavior existed during the upper paleolithic era (at least 30,000 years ago) with the first evidence of spiritual experience dating back to the lower paleolithic era (up to 300,000 years ago).

 

[Sunstone]

At Çatalhöyük, which dates back before the first cities in Sumer, there seems to be little or no evidence of a priestly class. Instead, religion appears to have been a family or clan affair -- that is, decentralized.

 

[Falvlun]

A key question is whether the people who built Göbekli Tepe used religion to justify whatever social order they had. We know from some of the earliest Sumerian writings that religion was being used as an ideological prop for a leisured class of rulers. But we really don't know how religion was being used at Göbekli Tepe, and we may never know.

It's sole purpose does seem to be for religious ceremonies, as there has been no evidence of people living there full time.

At the very least, it encouraged people to come together, and gave them a reason to work together on a huge, abstract project. It was periodically updated, rebuilt, so it also served as a longterm goal requiring social unity.

According to wikipedia, agriculture dates back to the the neolithic era (7,000-10,000 years ago), while evidence of religious behavior existed during the upper paleolithic era (at least 30,000 years ago) with the first evidence of spiritual experience dating back to the lower paleolithic era (up to 300,000 years ago).

That would seem to belie the suggestion that there is a connection between the two. Unless religion needed to become more powerful, more demanding, in order to encourage the development of agriculture.

At Çatalhöyük, which dates back before the first cities in Sumer, there seems to be little or no evidence of a priestly class. Instead, religion appears to have been a family or clan affair -- that is, decentralized.

Gobeki Tepe predates that by about 1500 years.

Do you find the existence of a priest class necessary for the rise of religion and agriculture to be linked?

The people who worshipped at Gobeki must have traveled from the surrounding areas as they did not live there. Religion might have been a primarily clan/family matter at home, and the social aspect reserved for the trek to some central ceremonial place.

In general, I find it unlikely that one can be categorically said to give rise to the other. More likely, they fed off of each other.

 

[Sunstone]

Every early state society -- whether the city-states of Sumer, or the Inca of Peru -- is associated with at least three things: Agriculture, a ruling class, and a religion. Now, that's state societies, but Göbekli Tepe seems to have had at most a religion. But what kind of a religion? Do we even know for sure if they had gods? Because there's so much uncertainty at this point, I'm not sure if we can fairly say that the kind of religion we see at Sumer, etc. predates those early states.

 

[Storm]

I think you need to define religion....

 

[Splarnst]

What about non-agricultural groups today? Would you say they have religion?

 

[Sunstone]

What about non-agricultural groups today? Would you say they have religion?

Everyone has their own definition of religion, but I would say the earth's very few remaining non-agricultural groups tend to have religions lacking an hereditary priestly class.

 

[Breathe]

I think you need to define religion....

I agree; religion needs to be defined.

I believe religion came first. Maybe not as many would understand religion today: centralized, organised, scripture, priestly classes, etc - I doubt this was the case for quite some time.

However, religion nonetheless. We have seen evidence of ritualized burials (things being buried with corpses, and bones pigmented with red ochre being two of them) from over 40,000 years ago. Cave paintings began about 35,000 years ago - both of which may have had some form of ritual or religious meaning.

In comparison, agriculture is rather recent; it seems kind of like seeing a computers and asking if humans had seats before the existence of the computer.

Then again; it depends on what one is considering as religion.

 

[Marble]

I think religion came before agriculture.
At that time humans lived as hunter-gatherers and I believe they prayed to their gods for luck in hunting.
I also think that such cultures have a relationship with the animals they hunt, they don't see them just as food, they are aware that for their survival a creature has to die and they have rituals to appease the spirit of an animal they kill.
Also they are aware that it is important not to disturb the balance of their environment, they may have thought that when they kill animals for other reasons than food they receive punishment.

 

[haribol]

In fact religion was in its infancy in times of hunter –gatherers and gradually it evolved and in the prime of agriculture it advanced and this evolution continued into the industrial age and now religion has been a sophisticated thing growing with the sophistication of life. The evolution of religion goes in tandem with the evolution of man.

 

[MapMistress]

I was reading an interesting article in Nat Geo about Gobekli Tepi, an ancient temple found in Turkey believed to be the earliest known temple in human history.

Its existence provides tantalizing evidence that perhaps the origins of religion and agriculture are reversed from what is usually assumed. The traditional hypotheis is that religion arose after agriculture as a means to coordinate the actions and relieve the tensions of larger groups of poeple.

Which do you think came first? Does this temple change the way you view things? If the religion-first hypothesis is true, what caused these religious concepts to arise?

No. Religion came thousands of years before agriculture. Most hunter and gatherer groups were Animistic. They believed in animal spirits which they would turn into religion.

Agriculture springs out of the Gaia-Mother Earth groups first. And I still haven't pinpointed how far back they go. Some of the Native Americans crossing Beringia at the LGM were Animistic, others were Gaia-like or Mother-Earth based religions.

So the area of the first agriculture around 11,000 BCE Turkey coast or southeast Turkey, they were Gaia groups also mixed with Animistic groups. We know this by the clay earth pregnant "booby dolls" which represent Gaia or mother Earth giving birth. They are found all around Mesopotamia, Levant, Palestine and into southern and southwestern Turkey.

Those were the groups that came up with agriculture. So they had religion first. The idea of a pregnant Earth, mother Earth or Gaia giving birth to all living things--humans, plants, animals. And agriculture sprang from them. The women figured that instead of wandering around everyday looking for food, gathering plants that it would just be easier to plant the food--gather the seeds and water them in one place. So you see first a collection of wild-plants, like wild einkorn that spreads around into different regions that they aren't native to--along the Turkey coast, Levant, Palestine. Then the wild-einkorn which was transplanted becomes domesticated.

Religion first, then agriculture.

 

[chinu]

Which came first: Religion or Agriculture?

Agriculture.

_/\_
Chinu

 

[painted wolf]

I think that Lascaux and other paleolithic sites show that humans were using specific places for religious activity for a long time.

If you don't have a cave to visit, make a cave.

Wooden and hide structures probably filled the role for people long before building one out of stone. Just like Stonehenge was predated by Woodhenge.

wa:do