WHERE IS THE SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS GOD'S 4th COMMANDMENT IS ABOLISHED?

[2ndpillar]

First, to me all the genuine ' wheat' Christians think alike. It is the fake 'weed/tares' who do Not think alike.
A lot of people say humans can solve their own problems often citing modern technology as the answer.
But man's technology often is a two-edged sword: Atomic Energy (as good) and Atomic Bomb (as bad)
Man's figurative heart is imperfect and is a traitor within us.
The heart urges us to do something, and after we do it the heart gives us all the reasons why we should not have done what we did in the first place.

Modern cosmology changes with the latest Webb camera space photo, as well as the scientist don't have any handle on an agreed on combined theory of all things. The definition of the "tares" per Matthew 13:41, is they are those who "commit lawlessness", which would be the "many" of Matthew 7:13-15, who follow the "false prophets" to "destruction", by accepting the false gospel of grace/lawlessness. The "tares" feel they are genuine, and fool the "many", until you look under their skin. They line up with the "woke", in that by their own measure, they are more righteous than the righteousness of God. It doesn't end well.

 

[2ndpillar]

In Greek language saturday is called Savato (Sabbath) and the state workers don't work. Sunday is called Kyriaki (Lord's day) and priests are expecting people to go to church.

That lines up with Constantine's decree of 321 A.D., that all shops and government offices were to be closed on the day of the sun. And yes, the Gentile (Greek) Lord, as with Paul, who called on his Lord Caesar (beast), an arm of the "dragon" (Revelation 13:4), to save him from the people of Jerusalem, is the "dragon", Sol Invictus/"devil" (Matthew 13:39). Is the Greek "church" you are talking about, the "Eastern church", which has Constantine, the murderer of his wife and son, listed as a saint?

 

[syo]

Is the Greek "church" you are talking about, the "Eastern church", which has Constantine, the murderer of his wife and son, listed as a saint?

Yes. And, a great saint.

 

[icehorse]

First, to me all the genuine ' wheat' Christians think alike. It is the fake 'weed/tares' who do Not think alike.
A lot of people say humans can solve their own problems often citing modern technology as the answer.
But man's technology often is a two-edged sword: Atomic Energy (as good) and Atomic Bomb (as bad)
Man's figurative heart is imperfect and is a traitor within us.
The heart urges us to do something, and after we do it the heart gives us all the reasons why we should not have done what we did in the first place.

As my tagline indicates, I'm critical of religion in general, and I'm probably most critical of Islam and Christianity. I've been debating Muslims and Christians for years now. Since we're in a debate forum, I assume that the religious folks who are here, are here for a debate. I also believe that our time is valuable. My time is as valuable as yours, and vice versa.

As a courtesy, I've laid out my "faith" my "belief" in humanity's problem solving abilities. What I've come to see as a pattern is that the religious folks I debate - most of the time - are unwilling to lay out exactly what it is they believe when it comes to their faith. This leads to lots of confusion and wasted time.

I did a little web searching for "wheat" vs. "weed/tare" Christians. I learned a little something, but honestly I do not know what it means in day to day terms if a Christian is of the "wheat" variety vs. the "weed/tare" variety. Can you provide a concrete example or two?

thanks!

 

[Apostle John]

Well not all Christians think alike Some take the Bible quite literally, and others assume that claims in the Bible should often be taken as metaphors, or other not-literal ways.

So we still don't know what YOU think

For example, as my tagline says, I'm a secular humanist. What I think is that humans can solve their own problems without the need for a supernatural god's help. You might not agree with me, but at least you know exactly where I stand

I take the Bible very literally, heaven and hell exist but need interpreting. Good luck making your stand.

 

[Windwalker]

This is worth answering. Do you have a rational explanation why the science and labels you wholeheartedly believe in has the human age at 500,000 years but that they only learned to write 4,500 years ago.

Evolution is a slow process. Why is it we have had written language for only 5,100 years, but only it's only been the last 40 years we have had the Internet? I don't understand your thinking here. How does any of that change the data we have from science?

But if you'd like some reasonable explanation, it's fairly simple. We didn't have economic systems until after the agricultural revolution, around 10,000 BCE. It was only when we had the rise of nations that a system was devised to keep track of crops and exchange of monies for economic reasons to run a kingdom. Prior to this, there was no reason to develop it. Why would we have needed it, when we could just talk to each other face to face over simple daily needs?

Short answer, "Necessity is the mother of invention". Before 3100 BCE, there simply wasn't a need for it. What need do you see may have existed from the first day man walked on two feet? They didn't have roads and cars either for several thousands of years.

Your science doesn’t add up, it makes no sense.

It's not "my science". It's science. It's available to you too, if you have serious questions you'd like answered, such as "why does it rain", or why does the sun rise in the east and set in the west, and not the other way around? Science can answer those questions for everyone, including you.

 

[Apostle John]

Evolution is a slow process. Why is it we have had written language for only 5,100 years, but only it's only been the last 40 years we have had the Internet? I don't understand your thinking here. How does any of that change the data we have from science?

But if you'd like some reasonable explanation, it's fairly simple. We didn't have economic systems until after the agricultural revolution, around 10,000 BCE. It was only when we had the rise of nations that a system was devised to keep track of crops and exchange of monies for economic reasons to run a kingdom. Prior to this, there was no reason to develop it. Why would we have needed it, when we could just talk to each other face to face over simple daily needs?

Short answer, "Necessity is the mother of invention". Before 3100 BCE, there simply wasn't a need for it. What need do you see may have existed from the first day man walked on two feet? They didn't have roads and cars either for several thousands of years.



It's not "my science". It's science. It's available to you too, if you have serious questions you'd like answered, such as "why does it rain", or why does the sun rise in the east and set in the west, and not the other way around? Science can answer those questions for everyone, including you.

You’re proposing loads of dark ages not controlled by God to confirm this erratic dating? The fallacies go on and on when I’ve asked serious scientific questions. You won’t need to invent anything in the Tribulation, they’ll be so much dumbing down people will believe alien invasion and all manner of nonsense.

 

[Windwalker]

You’re proposing loads of dark ages not controlled by God to confirm this erratic dating?

What are you talking about? You are saying we need to have written language and words in order to have knowledge of God? You do realize you don't need the Bible in order to know God, don't you? It even says this in the Bible in multiple places.

And what "erratic dating" are you talking about? Science doesn't do erratic. It has solid supportable reasons for its dating systems. They aren't erratic.

The fallacies go on and on when I’ve asked serious scientific questions.

What serious question did you ask? You asked why writing is only 5100 years old (a more accurate date than the 4300 you said), and I gave an entirely reasonable answer to this. There was no need for it previously, just like there was no need for air travel yet in history. What don't you understand about this? The invention of writing has no bearing whatsoever on how old the human species is.

You won’t need to invent anything in the Tribulation, they’ll be so much dumbing down people will believe alien invasion and all manner of nonsense.

Why are you afraid of science? Don't you have faith in God? Why do you fear knowledge so much then?

 

[Apostle John]

Can you not get Mike P from the other forum back on. He is less revved up, with a Buddhist tendency I can see even if a little lost. But at least you can have a calm and relaxed conversation with him.

 

[3rdAngel]

The question soon became bigger than circumcision and the conclusion also was bigger than circumcision and was that the Gentiles should not be required to keep the law of Moses.
The Gentile Christians had to mix with Jewish Christians who were zealous for the law however and so it seems that the Noahide laws were recommended for that purpose.
Noahide laws also are not a requirement for Gentile Christians if the Law of Moses is not.

Acts 15:5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”
6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question.

You should read more of 1 Corinthians 7 and get the gist of what is being said.
So why are you saying "keeping the commandments of God" means that Gentiles should keep the Sabbath which was given as part of the Law of Moses as a sign for Israel.
Certainly someone who remains a slave when called to be a Christian will not be expected to keep the Sabbath.

That is not true at all Brian, Circumcision is from the law of Moses and is a Mosaic law given by God. So is animal sacrifices and sin offerings, as well as the Levitical Priesthood and Sanctuary laws for atonement of sin, all of which are shadow laws fulfilled in Christ pointing to Jesus in the new covenant as Gods sacrifice for the sins of the world and Gods new covenant promise in Jeremiah 31:31-36 representing circumcision of the heart through the Spirit to obey Gods law through a new heart that loves.

The law of Moses was written by Moses under Gods direction in the book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7) and it is not the same as Gods law (the 10 commandments) that was written on two tables of stone by the finger of God alone. Gods 10 commandments are never called the law of Moses in the bible. They are called Gods law (Nehemiah 10:28-29) which was given to Moses to give to the people.

Now let's add back in the CONTEXT you have left out of ACTS 15

• ACTS 15:1:21 [1], And certain men who came down from Judea taught the brethren, and said, EXCEPT YOU BE CIRCUMCISED AFTER THE MANNER OF MOSES YOU CANNOT BE SAVED.

NOTE: ACTS 15:1 is the question that needs to be answered and the topic of conversation and CONTEXT of the chapter of ACTS 15. Here we have Jewish believers coming to Paul and Barnabas saying if the new GENTILES believers are not circumcised and made proselytes then they cannot be saved. This is the chapter context and issue of contention.

• [2], When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, THEY DETERMINED THAT PAUL AND BARNABAS AND CERTAIN OF THEM SHOULD GO UP TO JERUSALEM UNTO THE APOSLTLES AND ELDERS ABOUT THIS QUESTION.

NOTE: ACTS 15:2 Which question? Weather your salvation depends on being CIRCUMCISED. They then travelled to Jerusalem about this question to determine if new gentile believers needed to be CIRCUMCISED in order to be saved. Once they got to Jerusalem, the question was then asked and the discussion continued with the Pharisees stating their case first..

• [5], But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees who believed, saying, It is needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

NOTE: KEEP in mind here the question was never over if gentile believers should obey God's 10 Commandments but to keep the Shadow laws of Moses, in this case CIRCUMCISION as a means of salvation. CIRCUMCIONS is from the law of MOSES not God’s 10 Commandments written by God on two tables of stone.

• [6], And the apostles and elders came together TO CONSIDER THIS MATTER.

NOTE: Again the topic of discussion and chapter CONTEXT that is being considered is the question stated in ACTS 15:1 which was IS CIRCUMCISION A REQUIREMENT OF SALVATION?

• [7], And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, you know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

• [8], And God, who knows the hearts, bore them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us;

NOTE: After much discussion between the Apostles, Peter then rose up showing that God gave the gentile believers the Holy Spirit being UNCIRCUMCISED.

• [9], And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
• [10], Now therefore why test God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
• [11], But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

NOTE: They came to the conclusion then that salvation is not by being circumcised but be what circumcision pointed to. A new heart by faith. This is made plain latter in other scripture written by PAUL here... ROMANS 2 [25] For circumcision verily profits, if you keep the law: but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision is made uncircumcision. [26], Therefore if the uncircumcision keeps the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? [27], And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfils the law, judge you, who by the letter and circumcision do transgress the law? [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW, WHO IS ONE; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OF THE OUTWARD FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; AND CIRCUMCISION IS THAT OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT AND NOT IN THE LETTER; WHOSE PRAISE IS NOT OF MEN BUT OF GOD.

If ACTS 15 was talking about the 10 Commandments then Pauls writings in to the CORINTHIANS do not make any sense.

• 1 CORINTHIANS 7 [19] CIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, AND UNCIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, BUT THE KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD.

The scripture above is a contradiction of how some interpret the outcome of ACTS 15. You do not believe Brian, that we are now free to break any of God's 10 Commandments now do you?

• [12], Then all the multitude kept silence, and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring what miracles and wonders God had done among the Gentiles by them.
• [13], And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
• [14], Simeon has declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
• [15], And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
• [16], After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
• [17], That the rest of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, says the Lord, who does all these things.
• [18], Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
• [19], THEREFORE MY JUDGMENT IS THAT WE TROUBLE NOT THEM WHO FROM THE GENTILES ARE TURNED TO GOD:
• [20], BUT WRITE UNTO THEM THAT THEY ABSTAIN FROM THE DEFILEMENT OF IDOLS, FORNICATION AND THINGS STRANGLED AND FROM BLOOD.

NOTE: JAMES conclusion is that new Gentile believers should not be troubled with CIRCUMCISION as a requirement of salvation which was the matter being considered and the question being discussion as shown in *ACTS 15:1-2; ACTS 15:6 but asks them to abstain from idols, fornication and from things strangled and from blood.

• [21], FOR MOSES OF OLD TIME HAS IN EVERY CITY THEM THAT PREACH HIM, BEING READ IN THE SYNAGOGUES EVERY SABBATH.

NOTE: The reason why JAMES sends this letter to the new Gentile believers is that they would continue learning God's WORD EVERY SABBATH.

Lets now look at your contradiction in the interpretation of Acts 15. If you are applying Gods 10 commandments to Acts 15 you are contradicting pretty much the whole bible and Jesus that says think not that I have come to destroy the law and the prophets I have not come to destroy them but obey them (Matthew 5:17); By applying Acts 15 to Gods 10 commandments does not make any sense because you are

1. Denying the scripture context that says that what was being discussed in Jerusalem was the question "Is circumcision a requirement for the salvation of new gentile believers (Acts of the Apostles 15:1-2)
2. Claiming that Acts 15 is teaching that Gods 10 commandments are abolished is proven false because the scriptures state the reason for the decision over circumcision was that the new gentile believers would be continuing to learn from the scriptures every Sabbath (Acts 15:21)
3. Paul and the Apostles continuing to keep the Sabbath right after the council of Jerusalem (Acts of the Apostles 17:2).
4. Paul taught the new Corinthians gentile believers after the decision of Jerusalem that circumcision is no longer a requirement but keeping of the commandments of God is a requirement for gentile believers (1 Corinthians 7:19)?

CONCLUSION So the conclusion of the matter with CONTEXT added back in is found in v19-20 We are not to trouble the new gentile believers with CIRCUMCISION as a means of salvation. They are new converts that will learn more about GOD'S WORD when? EVERY SABBATH. In the meantime you should abstain from anything offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication.

Sorry brother God's WORD disagrees with you.

 

[icehorse]

I take the Bible very literally, heaven and hell exist but need interpreting. Good luck making your stand.

How do the Biblical interpreters attain the expertise they need to do the interpreting?

 

[3rdAngel]

GINILJC, to all,You take care also. food reply. God requires only three things of us which fulfills the Lasw, which is now command of us is to LOVE ONE ANOTHER.

According to the scriptures love is not separated from Gods law. Love is expressed by obeying God's law from a new heart that has been born again into Gods new covenant promise to walk in Gods Spirit through faith in Gods Word (see Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-36 and Ezekiel 36:24-27; John 3:3-7; 1 John 3:4-9; Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:1-4; Romans 3:31).

Love is not separate from Gods' law it is expressed in obedience to God's law from the heart. This is what Jesus, Paul, James and John all teach in the scriptures provided earlier. We do not love God or our fellow man by breaking God's law as that is sin according to the scriptures and not love (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; James 2:10-11).

When we LOVE GOD and our NEIGHBOR it is expressed through our actions.

If we LOVE our neighbour...

• Will we honor our parents?
• Will we not murder?
• Will we not commit adultery with our neighbor's spouse?
• Will we not steal from them?
• Will we not lie to them?
• Will we not covet what they own?

If we LOVE our God...

• Will we not have other Gods?
• Will we not make idols and worship them?
• Will we not take his name [follow] him in vain?
• Will we remember his seventh day Sabbath and keep it holy?

Now if your answer is yes then you agree with me. If your answer is no what kind of love are you talking about? Jesus, Paul, James and John all agree that love is not separate from God's law it is expressed in obedience to Gods' law and breaking God's law shows we do not love God or our fellow man and stand guilty before God of sin *1 John 3:4; James 2:10-11.....

• MATTHEW 22:36-40 [36] Master, which is the great commandment in the law? [37], Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. [38], This is the first and great commandment. [39], And the second is like to it, You shall love your neighbour as yourself. [40], ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.

• ROMANS 13:8-10 [8], Owe no man anything, but to LOVE ONE ANOTHER: for HE THAT LOVES ANOTHER HAS FULFILLED THE LAW. [9], FOR THIS, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT STEAL, THOU SHALT NOT LIE, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and IF THERE SHALL BE ANY OTHER COMMANDMENT, it is briefly SUMMED UP in this saying, namely, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF. [10], Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF THE LAW.

and again;

• JAMES 2:10-11 [10], For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. [11] For he that said, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, said also, DO NOT KILL. Now if thou commit NO ADULTERY, yet if thou KILL, YOU ARE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF GOD'S LAW

Love is expressed in obedience to God's law not breaking Gods law according to Jesus, Paul and James. Paul goes on to say that we are saved by faith but faith does not abolish Gods' law it establishes Gods' law in all those who truly believe Gods' Word

• ROMANS 3:31, Do we then make void the law through faith? GOD FORBID: YES, WE ESTABLISH THE LAW.

and why JOHN says;

• 2 JOHN 1:6 AND THIS IS LOVE THAT WE WALK AFTER HIS COMMANDMENTS. This is the commandment, That, as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.

and again here;

• 1 JOHN 5:2-3 [2], BY THIS WE KNOW THAT WE LOVE THE CHILDREN OF GOD, WHEN WE LOVE GOD AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS [3], FOR THE IS THE LOVE OF GOD, THAT WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: and his commandments are not grievous.

and is why it is written;

• 1 JOHN 2:3-4 [3], And HEREBY WE KNOW THAT WE KNOW HIM IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. [4], HE THAT SAYS I KNOW HIM AND DOES NOT KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS IS A LIAR AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM.

• 1 JOHN 3:6 WHOSOEVER ABIDES IN HIM SINS NOT: WHOSOEVER SINS HAS NOT SEEN HIM OR KNOWS HIM

• 1 JOHN 3:9 [9], WHOSOEVER IS BORN OF GOD DOES NOT COMMIT SIN; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

• 1 JOHN 5:18 [18] We know that WHOSOEVER IS BORN OF GOD SINS NOT; but he that is begotten of God keeps himself, and that wicked one touches him not.

• ROMANS 2:12-13 [12], For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; [13], FOR NOT THE HEARERS OF THE LAW ARE JUST BEFORE GOD BUT THE DOERS OF THE LAW SHALL BE JUSTIFIED.

and why JESUS says;

• JOHN 14:15 [15] IF YOU LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS

This is why Jesus says "On these two commandments of love to God and man hang all the law and the prophets" - Matthew 22:36-40. If you disagree please respond to my posts showing why you disagree from the scriptures. If you cannot than who are you disagreeing with? They are God's Words not mine. None of us can claim to love or even know God if we do not keep His commandments from a new heart that loves.

• 1 JOHN 2:3-4 3, And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4, He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Take Care.

 

[3rdAngel]

Yes, a very silly argument with undertones of hellfire punishment for utter inconsequentialities.

• Romans 6:23 The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Chris our Lord.

• Hebrews 10:26-31 26, For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, 27, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28, He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29, Of how much sorer punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, with which he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite to the Spirit of grace? 30, For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31, It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[3rdAngel]

I posted Gal 3 because grace is by faith and not by works. of course I understand that grace doesn't give us a license to sin. And of course faith has works.. But you give it a hue of "work at fulfilling the law" when it is fulfilled in Jesus.

As i read your post, although I know your heart is right, you give a hue of "work the law" - which ultimately leads us into the law of condemnation of sin and death.

And, as I noted, there is no "8th day" for God because the rest that we find is that God has made every day a Sabbath for the believer, although you can certainly esteem a day above the rest as long as it is in faith as I noted in Hebrews and you affirmed.

No more spiritual adultery of going back to the Law as the roadmap for righteousness.

Ultimately, it is faith that pleases God and without it, you can't. Works of faith is good, of course.

And there you go again Kenny you simply ignored what was written to you. Who is telling you that you are saved by the law? If I have never said to you Kenny that you are saved by the law why pretend that is what I am saying to you? At the same time you agree with me I see that faith has works and is not a license to sin (break Gods law) shown in Romans 3:31 and James 2:13-26. According to the scriptures, genuine faith in Romans 3:31 obeys Gods law as does love as shown in Romans 13:8-10. So to say we have faith by breaking the law shows we do not have any saving faith in Gods Word at all. Faith, love and obedience to Gods Word are not separate to each other the one leads to the other according to the scriptures. Jesus came to save us from our sins not give us a license to continue practicing sin (breaking Gods Law). There is a test to know if we know God and it is found in 1 John 2:3-4 3, And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4, He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Take Care.

 

[3rdAngel]

Hello WW I am going to address your post with a detailed scripture response and add the full context of our discussion so it is easier to follow so that it can be helpful to the discussion. I posted a response to your earlier question "why do you not keep all the 613 laws of the old covenant law below...

3rdAngel said: ↑ Hi WW nice to meet you. In answer to your question? No we are in the new covenant now (see Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:24-27 and Hebrews 8:10-12) not the old covenant (Exodus 24:7). Most of the 613 were in regards to the laws for remission of sins that included the earthly Sanctuary laws, the Levitical Priesthood, the laws of animal sacrifices and sin offerings and annual Feast days that are now fulfilled and continued in Christ and the promised Messiah to who they all pointed to. They were the shadows of things to come pointing to Gods sacrifice for the sins of the world once and for all (see John 1:29; Hebrews 10:10; Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22). On the other hand Gods 10 commandments in the new covenant have the same role they always had and that is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing when obeyed) and evil (moral wrong doing when disobeyed); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *see Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172. As posted through out this thread God's 4th commandment is one of Gods 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4) and according to James in James 2:10-11 if we break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin. According to Hebrews 10:26-31 if we continue in known unrepentant sin we will not enter into the Kingdom of heaven. Sunday worship as a replacement for Gods 4th commandment is a man-made teaching and tradition that has led many away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God against the very warnings given by Jesus in Matthew 15:3-9. The question we should be asking ourselves is who do we believe and follow; God or man?

Your response here...

Then why do you exclude the observation of the Sabbath as itself not a "shadow of things to come", which itself was fulfilled in Christ as "our rest"?

As posted all through this thread Gods 4th commandment is one of Gods 10 commandments. Gods 10 commandments have the same role in the new covenant as they do in the old covenant and that is they give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing when obeyed) and evil (moral wrong doing when disobeyed); sin when broken and righteousness when obeyed *see Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172 and according to James if we break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin and breaking all of them in James 2:10-11. Unlike the ceremonial sabbaths in the Feast days connected to the old covenant laws for remission of sins, Gods 4th commandment is not a "shadow law" it is a memorial pointing backwards not forward to things to come. "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy" - Exodus 20:8. It points back to creation and God as the creator of heaven and earth (Genesis 2:1-3). It is impossible for Gods 4th commandment to be a shadow law of anything. Why? Because Gods Sabbath cannot be a shadow law because all the shadow laws pointing to Jesus and Gods salvation were given after the fall of man and sin entered into the world as a part of Gods plan of salvation. When the Sabbath was made for all mankind there was no sin. Mankind was in perfect harmony with God and sinless and walked and talked with God. Gods 4th commandment therefore is always a memorial pointing backwards to the finished work of creation not forwards to things to come after sin and Gods plan of salvation. It is one of Gods 10 commandments that gives us the knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20) in the new covenant. Our rest in Christ therefore is in believing and obeying what Gods Word says not disobeying and not believing what Gods Word says. That is the very definition of sin according to the scriptures.

You missed my bonus question I asked, about "was man made for the sabbath, or was the sabbath made for man". It's an important question, because it puts things into perspective regarding the actual religious importance and significance of these rituals and rules.

Why do you think I missed your question? Mark 2:27 says that the Sabbath was made for man. This scripture only supports what is being shared with you earlier. God made the Sabbath for mankind and made it one of His 10 commandments (Exodus 20:8-11) as a memorial of creation and a celebration of God as the creator of heaven and earth. Gods 4th commandment is not a ritual it is a moral law that shows us our duty of love to God as our creator.

To make it about the external observance, is to miss the point of the 'fulfilment of these things in Christ,' as you quoted from in Hebrews. To underscore this, I'll quote from Paul in Galatians, Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. Galatians 5:3,4 For you to say, "but the Sabbath must still be observed as ordered by Moses," is doing exactly the same thing as those who were telling the Christians they must be circumcised, as also ordered by Moses.

Perhaps you have a misunderstanding. Do you think that genuine faith does not believe and obey what Gods Word says in all those who are born again into Gods new covenant promise to walk in God's Spirit of love through faith (see Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27; John 3:3-7; compare 1 John 3:4-9; Galatians 5:16; 1 John 5:2-4; Romans 3:31; James 2:13-26; 1 John 2:3-4). According to the scriptures if our faith does not lead us to obey what Gods Word says according to James all we have is the dead faith of devils. The Devils also believe but do not obey what Gods Word says. Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved it is the fruit of someone that has already been given Gods free gift of salvation through faith *Ephesians 2:8-9. According to John this is the test to know if we know God or not or are in fact the children of the devil (see 1 John 2:3-4 and compare 1 John 3:6-10). Therefore knowingly breaking anyone of Gods 10 commandments or not believing and following what Gods Word says is a sign that we are still in our sins and do not know God and are in danger of the judgement to come (see Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31 compare to Hebrews 10:26-31).

You, as they, were picking and choosing select "laws" as still in effect, and missing the overall point that Paul was talking about. It is not through observing these external laws that you are justified, but by fulfilling what they are pointing to, what they are "shadows of", as he worded it, which is in the heart.

That claims here to me have no true in them at all. Where have I ever said to you that we are saved by keeping the law? If I have never said this to you why make strawman comments to pretend that this is what I have been saying to you? I have never once said you do that we are justified through external keeping of the law, so I would appreciate it if you do not pretend that this is what I am saying to you. What I am saying to you is that obedience to Gods law is the fruit of genuine faith that works by love in those who have been born again to walk in Gods new covenant promise through faith in His Word and are born of His Spirit to keep Gods commandments (see once again Romans 3:31; Romans 6:1-23; 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:4-9; Galatians 5:16; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14; James 2:13-26). There will only be two groups of people at the second coming. One group who through faith in Gods Word keep all the commandments of God and the other group who break them according to the scriptures (1 John 3:4-10; 1 John 2:3-4; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14)

more to come...

 

[3rdAngel]

He rightly then tells his readers, exactly what Jesus taught, "For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”. (Gal. 5:14) It is not fulfilled in "only worshipping on Saturday instead of Sunday".

Once again according to the scriptures, love to God and man is not separate from obedience to Gods law. Love is expressed by obeying what Gods law says through faith that works by love. This is why Jesus says

• MATTHEW 22:36-40 [36], Master, which is the great commandment in the law? [37], Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. [38], This is the first and great commandment. [39], And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. [40], ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.

Jesus is quoting from Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18 showing that love to God and man is not separate from obedience to Gods law. Paul is agreeing with what Jesus is saying above when he says that love is not separate from obedience to Gods law here...

• ROMANS 13:8-10 [8], Owe no man anything, but to love one another: for he that loves another has fulfilled the law. [9], FOR THIS, YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT KILL, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, YOU SHALL NOT COVET; AND IF THERE BE ANY OTHER COMMANDMENT, IT IS SUMMED UP IN THIS SAYING, NAMELY, YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF. [10], Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore, LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF THE LAW.

Notice what PAUL says here? LOVE is fulfilling [doing] God's Commandments. God's Commandments or duty towards your neighbor is summed up as you shall LOVE your neighbor as yourself v9. [On these two commandments hang ALL THE LAW and the prophets Matthew 22:40]. PAUL agrees with Jesus that if you LOVE you will fulfill God's LAW. What about JAMES?

• JAMES 2:8-12 [8] If you fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, You shall love your neighbor as yourself, you do well: [9], But if you have respect to persons, you commit sin, and are convicted of the law as transgressors. [10], For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. [11], For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if you commit no adultery, yet you kill, you are become a transgressor of the law. [12], So speak, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

James is using the second great commandment of LOVE and quotes the commandments showing our duty towards our neighbor. This is why Jesus says “On these two commandments hang ALL THE LAW and the prophets” Matthew 22:40. and again..

• JOHN 14:15 [15], IF YOU LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS.

You cannot separate LOVE from God’s LAW. Love is the FULFILLING of it and is demonstrated by OBEDIENCE to Gods’ LAW as our duty of LOVE to God and man. [“On these two commandments [of LOVE] hang ALL THE LAW and the prophets]. Therefore let me ask the question again. Where is the scripture that says Gods 4th commandment has been abolished and we are now commended to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest? Sunday worship is a man-made teaching and tradition that has led many away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God against the very warnings of Jesus given in Matthew 15:3-9. No one therefore can claim to have faith in Gods Word and love God if they do not believe and follow what Gods Word says. That would be the very definition of what sin is in the bible (see Romans 14:23 and 1 John 3:4) from those who do not know God and His Word according to John in 1 John 2:3-4.

Take Care.

 

[2ndpillar]

Yes. And, a great saint.

Also the guy who was to "deceive" "those who dwell on the earth" (Revelation 13:11-14), along with his "two horns like a lamb", the "worthless shepherd" of Zechariah 11:16-17, Peter, and the false prophet Paul, the "shepherd" called "Favor", in honor of his false gospel of grace (Zechariah 11:10), and in his efforts to eliminate the "covenant" given to Abraham, the covenant of circumcision. Those following "saint" Peter are to be "cut off" when he "falls" (Isaiah 22:25), which appears to be imminent. The Eastern Russian Orthodox church leader seems to be following Putin's soul mate in his efforts to kill Ukrainians. I have to imagine you have a different heir of Peter. (Isaiah 22:15-25). I have to imagine they are all on their way out the door per Ezekiel 34:16.

 

[2ndpillar]

I agree with Jesus in what he taught about how the entire law is fulfilled in Love, not in the observing of days, as is taught by religious men seeking to justify themselves by religious practices.

By the way, have you gotten through the eye of a needle lately? You love God by obeying his commandments.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

 

[2ndpillar]

What is the difference between the dna of man and that of ape?

What is the difference between the DNA of a worm and of man? Do they have the same creator?

 

[Kenny]

And there you go again Kenny you simply ignored what was written to you. Who is telling you that you are saved by the law? If I have never said to you Kenny that you are saved by the law why pretend that is what I am saying to you? At the same time you agree with me I see that faith has works and is not a license to sin (break Gods law) shown in Romans 3:31 and James 2:13-26. According to the scriptures, genuine faith in Romans 3:31 obeys Gods law as does love as shown in Romans 13:8-10. So to say we have faith by breaking the law shows we do not have any saving faith in Gods Word at all. Faith, love and obedience to Gods Word are not separate to each other the one leads to the other according to the scriptures. Jesus came to save us from our sins not give us a license to continue practicing sin (breaking Gods Law). There is a test to know if we know God and it is found in 1 John 2:3-4 3, And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4, He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Take Care.

You must have misunderstood what I was saying. I said " a hue", not that you were saying it.

The point is simple... Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, he is the fulfillment of the year of Jubilee Sabbath; God didn't go back to work on the 8th day: I have entered into the rest of God... every day.

But I support your position of wanting to honor God on the Jewish Sabbath.