Okay... if you believe in a god or gods... why?Hmm...try me maybe?
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Okay... if you believe in a god or gods... why?Hmm...try me maybe?
I believe that there is a singular root entity that is the substantial essence of everything, actualizing all physical phenomena that exists as well as all logical and mathematical structures that give physicality form. I believe evolution has granted human mind a limited cognitive ability to perceive this essential reality at a subconscious level (for most) through which we gain the ability to make creative connections and also gain our enhanced sense of meaning making and self awareness. Spiritual practices can bring this cognitive awareness to the level of conscious apprehension, though incompletely. We Hindus call this entity Brahman, but it may also be perceived as a personal entity, in which case it is called God.Okay... if you believe in a god or gods... why?
A recurring theme amongst Atheist and Scientifically minded people is to look or ask for proof for the existence of a creator.
You might have wondered, why do sceptics peruse forums such as this one to inquire of believer for proof of something they don't believe in themselves ?
I would be the last to criticise an inquisitive nature or a generous amount of scepticism towards religiously oriented affirmations. The Bible itself on two occasions warns us to "test the inspired expression" so as to assure ourselves of its validity (Mal 3:10;1 John 4:1).
Could it be that as rational minds they are irritated by the foolishness of organised religion and those that blindly follow their dictates? Perhaps nothing would please them more than to show how gullible believers are.
Keep in mind that even believers recognise and condemn churches hypocritical activities and teachings. Even the Bible judges organised religion as a harlot that will be destroyed (Rev 17).
Perhaps the reason atheist seek to question believer is the lack of foundation thus lack of conviction for their own belief ?
It would not be surprising considering the alternatives.
For example: some scientific theories require even more faith than belief in an almighty creator.
Another hypothesis is that aliens put humans on the earth, but who created the aliens ?
Does 'random chance events' give atheist a firm basis to reject an intelligent creator? Scientific facts like the 'third law of thermodynamics' tells us that this is not even a consideration.
On the other hand we know why believers talk to others, in most cases it's to share their hope with them.
That being said there are those that believe neither in religious dogmas or unproven scientific theories but rather in the pure inspired word of God . They claim to have found the truth and encourage others to investigate the Bible apart from religious interpretations.(2Tim 3)
Most of the above is just my random musing and has no weight even in the microcosm in which we hold our discussions. However the words of Christ has much more relevance. When he addresses those that want proof of God's existence -although the evidence is right in front of them- he said the following:
"A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah the prophet,... hypocrites, you know how to examine the appearance of earth and sky, but why do you not know how to examine this particular time ?"
Just as in Jesus days, our time has more than enough signs if we look for them in the right place.
Wait a minnit - is "personal deity" not the same as Ishta devta?We Hindus call this entity Brahman, but it may also be perceived as a personal entity,
A recurring theme amongst Atheist and Scientifically minded people is to look or ask for proof for the existence of a creator.
You might have wondered, why do sceptics peruse forums such as this one to inquire of believer for proof of something they don't believe in themselves ?
I would be the last to criticise an inquisitive nature or a generous amount of scepticism towards religiously oriented affirmations. The Bible itself on two occasions warns us to "test the inspired expression" so as to assure ourselves of its validity (Mal 3:10;1 John 4:1).
Could it be that as rational minds they are irritated by the foolishness of organised religion and those that blindly follow their dictates? Perhaps nothing would please them more than to show how gullible believers are.
Keep in mind that even believers recognise and condemn churches hypocritical activities and teachings. Even the Bible judges organised religion as a harlot that will be destroyed (Rev 17).
Perhaps the reason atheist seek to question believer is the lack of foundation thus lack of conviction for their own belief ?
It would not be surprising considering the alternatives.
For example: some scientific theories require even more faith than belief in an almighty creator.
Another hypothesis is that aliens put humans on the earth, but who created the aliens ?
Does 'random chance events' give atheist a firm basis to reject an intelligent creator? Scientific facts like the 'third law of thermodynamics' tells us that this is not even a consideration.
On the other hand we know why believers talk to others, in most cases it's to share their hope with them.
That being said there are those that believe neither in religious dogmas or unproven scientific theories but rather in the pure inspired word of God . They claim to have found the truth and encourage others to investigate the Bible apart from religious interpretations.(2Tim 3)
Most of the above is just my random musing and has no weight even in the microcosm in which we hold our discussions. However the words of Christ has much more relevance. When he addresses those that want proof of God's existence -although the evidence is right in front of them- he said the following:
"A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah the prophet,... hypocrites, you know how to examine the appearance of earth and sky, but why do you not know how to examine this particular time ?"
Just as in Jesus days, our time has more than enough signs if we look for them in the right place.
As others have already stated - it's a lot of looking theists' reasons and claims up and down to discern whether there is anything of worth to them. Is there anything there that should convince me and everyone else?You might have wondered, why do sceptics peruse forums such as this one to inquire of believer for proof of something they don't believe in themselves ?
A recurring theme amongst Atheist and Scientifically minded people is to look or ask for proof for the existence of a creator.
You might have wondered, why do sceptics peruse forums such as this one to inquire of believer for proof of something they don't believe in themselves ?
I would be the last to criticise an inquisitive nature or a generous amount of scepticism towards religiously oriented affirmations. The Bible itself on two occasions warns us to "test the inspired expression" so as to assure ourselves of its validity (Mal 3:10;1 John 4:1).
Could it be that as rational minds they are irritated by the foolishness of organised religion and those that blindly follow their dictates? Perhaps nothing would please them more than to show how gullible believers are.
Keep in mind that even believers recognise and condemn churches hypocritical activities and teachings. Even the Bible judges organised religion as a harlot that will be destroyed (Rev 17).
Perhaps the reason atheist seek to question believer is the lack of foundation thus lack of conviction for their own belief ?
It would not be surprising considering the alternatives.
For example: some scientific theories require even more faith than belief in an almighty creator.
Another hypothesis is that aliens put humans on the earth, but who created the aliens ?
Does 'random chance events' give atheist a firm basis to reject an intelligent creator? Scientific facts like the 'third law of thermodynamics' tells us that this is not even a consideration.
On the other hand we know why believers talk to others, in most cases it's to share their hope with them.
That being said there are those that believe neither in religious dogmas or unproven scientific theories but rather in the pure inspired word of God ..
They don't believe because there's no proof, though. Provide it and you might get some converts. At least, that's this theist's observations.You might have wondered, why do sceptics peruse forums such as this one to inquire of believer for proof of something they don't believe in themselves ?
Not NEARLY as much as is necessary to make changes. So long as eternal life in heaven is the carrot for not questioning, they will condone even the worst moral travesties in life because they are moral cowards.Keep in mind that even believers recognise and condemn churches hypocritical activities and teachings.
Like what? I'm a theist and the current scientific consensuses seem legit to me. I'm fine with it. You have atoms, then molecules, then amino acids, then proteins and lipids, then amino acids surrounded by lipids and stuff, then cells, then colonies, then multicellular organisms with specialized tissues. It's rather straight-forward.For example: some scientific theories require even more faith than belief in an almighty creator.
Does the presence of really stupid things in reality give a firm basis to reject an "intelligent" creator. Maybe there is a creator, just really dumb. Some creator gods aren't even "making" the universe so much as their bodies "become" the universe, either through self-sacrifice or a fight they lost or whatever. I tend to lean more this way because it doesn't require "intelligence", only "existence".Does 'random chance events' give atheist a firm basis to reject an intelligent creator?
And that hope is that others burn in hell for their sins while they got off scot-free for throwing some random dead guy under the bus.On the other hand we know why believers talk to others, in most cases it's to share their hope with them.
He's saying YOU are wicked for looking for signs. The authors tried to shoehorn Jesus into pre-existing stories that had absolutely nothing to do with him. He didn't match many if all qualifications for a messiah (at least a specific one, because they're a dime a dozen if you count all "anointed ones", which is what the word actually means). You glean the bible hoping that some random collection of words will prove your dogmas that were pulled out of someone's behind to be true, when they're simply not. It's worse than watching theory videos about video games or movies or whatever. (I love you MatPat, LOL.) "Oh, that character wore a red shirt, so they must represent the blood of Christ, which is why they die all the time for the sins of the corrupt leaders on that science fiction show."Just as in Jesus days, our time has more than enough signs if we look for them in the right place.
At least the omnimax ones, though others are unlikely as well. The most likely are just the humans or non-human entities that did something neat and were deified by the people who were impressed. You can argue they aren't real gods, then, but back then gods didn't have to be anything BUT that. Many were just culture heroes, inventing agriculture or cooking or metalworking or whatever.We don't ask for "proof", we ask for evidence, an even lower bar to pass and yet no reliable evidence for a God is forthcoming.
Technically, we invented those laws, as they are only our observations about the area we live in the universe, not objective fact everywhere in the universe. Besides, gods are usually characterized as being entities that can override these rules, but there's no evidence it happened.A universe that depends on a great number of scientific laws to even exist
And many of the life forms on earth are so flawed they never make it past the conception stage, whether it's the sperm failing to fertilize the ovum or the seed that just didn't sprout. Jurassic Park had better success, even taking into account all the failures at Isla Sorna.Life is such a Goldilocks event that it should exist at all in the universe, and yet this world has thousands/millions of animal/plant/bacteria/fungi species.
I'm pretty sure my father and a cousin of mine lack them completely.People do actually have unique selves. Souls.
That's because men thought of it. Nature also has evidence of teamwork that is the rising tide that floats all boats, so to speak.I do not, however believe in "survival of the fittest" as this sort of mentality is one of a psychopath that would see Hitler's master race belief as justified. No thanks.
How does this prove God?The Big Bang was not invented by Stephen Hawking, no matter what "Theory of Everything" movie will tell you. It was by Georges Lemaitre, a Catholic priest and scientist, as a way of explaining exactly what happened during the beginning of the universe. Hubble took credit for it two years later.
At least life as we are used to.since only the smallest fraction of a fraction of the universe is hospitable to life.
They are like a fisherman who sees his master "walking on water" and, ignorant of the sandbar or whatever that's underneath, just leaps out of his boat and wonders why he's sinking, which also means the idiot can't swim, which you would think is a useful if not mandatory skill for boatmen.People and churches who hang their faith on ignorance of science are the ones who are treading on water, in my view.
And I, as a theist, appreciate atheists who take up the important work theists tend to ignore for selfish reasons.Speaking for myself, I challenge theists because I dislike the spread of oft-times compelling, but erroneous and illogical information.
And usually they didn't even have an imaginary being tell them so. Many of these things are either not mentioned at all or are actually encouraged. It's like wanting school prayer and the right to pray in public even though it's expressly forbidden by the (admittedly hypocritical) messiah they say they worship.Like whether we should allow gay marriages, abortion, euthanasia, etc. just because an imaginary being told them so.
List of highest-grossing films - WikipediaAnd consider this. Jesus all alone, opposed, tortured then crucified no wealth or power yet His Cause spreads over the entire planet winning the allegiance of billions all over the world including Kings, Queens and Emperors.
Yes.Wait a minnit - is "personal deity" not the same as Ishta devta?
If I read the philosophies correctly - that can be almost anything as long as it is a medium to the infinite not the end itself -
oooops...!!!!There is no such formal rule in the sciences.
You are making the assumption that science "proves" things. It does not do so. One builds models and tests them to see how closely they match reality. There is no formal law of cause and effect. Some events are uncaused.oooops...!!!!
so much for experimentation to be sure.....of anything
so much for science
BUT.....I believe
In God
and science
God created
and science gives insight to how things work
then I could say anythingYou are making the assumption that science "proves" things. It does not do so. One builds models and tests them to see how closely they match reality. There is no formal law of cause and effect. Some events are uncaused.
A recurring theme amongst Atheist and Scientifically minded people is to look or ask for proof for the existence of a creator.
You might have wondered, why do sceptics peruse forums such as this one to inquire of believer for proof of something they don't believe in themselves ?
I would be the last to criticise an inquisitive nature or a generous amount of scepticism towards religiously oriented affirmations. The Bible itself on two occasions warns us to "test the inspired expression" so as to assure ourselves of its validity (Mal 3:10;1 John 4:1).
Could it be that as rational minds they are irritated by the foolishness of organised religion and those that blindly follow their dictates? Perhaps nothing would please them more than to show how gullible believers are.
Keep in mind that even believers recognise and condemn churches hypocritical activities and teachings. Even the Bible judges organised religion as a harlot that will be destroyed (Rev 17).
Perhaps the reason atheist seek to question believer is the lack of foundation thus lack of conviction for their own belief ?
It would not be surprising considering the alternatives.
For example: some scientific theories require even more faith than belief in an almighty creator.
Another hypothesis is that aliens put humans on the earth, but who created the aliens ?
Does 'random chance events' give atheist a firm basis to reject an intelligent creator? Scientific facts like the 'third law of thermodynamics' tells us that this is not even a consideration.
On the other hand we know why believers talk to others, in most cases it's to share their hope with them.
That being said there are those that believe neither in religious dogmas or unproven scientific theories but rather in the pure inspired word of God . They claim to have found the truth and encourage others to investigate the Bible apart from religious interpretations.(2Tim 3)
Most of the above is just my random musing and has no weight even in the microcosm in which we hold our discussions. However the words of Christ has much more relevance. When he addresses those that want proof of God's existence -although the evidence is right in front of them- he said the following:
"A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah the prophet,... hypocrites, you know how to examine the appearance of earth and sky, but why do you not know how to examine this particular time ?"
Just as in Jesus days, our time has more than enough signs if we look for them in the right place.
No, you are not paying attention. In the sciences concepts are tested and either accepted if they can pass tests or rejected if they don't. Your overly simplistic "law of cause and effect" is abused far too often.then I could say anything
and your denial is pointless
I'm not one of them.A recurring theme amongst Atheist and Scientifically minded people is to look or ask for proof for the existence of a creator.
I'm not one of them.
Instead, I say, All the meanings attached to 'God' that I've heard are appropriate only for an imaginary being. I have no idea what real entity, if any, the word 'God' is intended to denote. Can you define what a real God is for me, so that if I find a real candidate, I'll be able to tell that it's God?
Okay... so that's what you believe.I believe that there is a singular root entity that is the substantial essence of everything, actualizing all physical phenomena that exists as well as all logical and mathematical structures that give physicality form. I believe evolution has granted human mind a limited cognitive ability to perceive this essential reality at a subconscious level (for most) through which we gain the ability to make creative connections and also gain our enhanced sense of meaning making and self awareness. Spiritual practices can bring this cognitive awareness to the level of conscious apprehension, though incompletely. We Hindus call this entity Brahman, but it may also be perceived as a personal entity, in which case it is called God.
What meditiation experiences could possibly justify a belief in a god?I have had certain meditative experiences that indicate the above description is true.
What do you mean by "intuitions about ethics and reality?"Which is the reason that I believe, along with the fact that the intuitions about ethics and reality I had gained from them had stood me in excellent stead both in my personal development and as a scientist in my professional life.
In terms of metaphysics the closest would be neutral monism.
Neutral Monism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
Discussion.You might have wondered, why do sceptics peruse forums such as this one to inquire of believer for proof of something they don't believe in themselves ?
Could it be that as rational minds they are irritated by the foolishness of organised religion and those that blindly follow their dictates?
Perhaps nothing would please them more than to show how gullible believers are.
It would not be surprising considering the alternatives.
For example: some scientific theories require even more faith than belief in an almighty creator.
Another hypothesis is that aliens put humans on the earth, but who created the aliens ?
Does 'random chance events' give atheist a firm basis to reject an intelligent creator?
Scientific facts like the 'third law of thermodynamics' tells us that this is not even a consideration.
That being said there are those that believe neither in religious dogmas or unproven scientific theories but rather in the pure inspired word of God . They claim to have found the truth and encourage others to investigate the Bible apart from religious interpretations.(2Tim 3)
Most of the above is just my random musing and has no weight even in the microcosm in which we hold our discussions. However the words of Christ has much more relevance
When he addresses those that want proof of God's existence -although the evidence is right in front of them- he said the following:
"A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah the prophet,... hypocrites, you know how to examine the appearance of earth and sky, but why do you not know how to examine this particular time ?"
Just as in Jesus days, our time has more than enough signs if we look for them in the right place.