Where is Mount Sumeru?

[Native]

The Hindu idea mentions infinite number of universes in a vast ocean of constantly producing universes.
As I said possible myth or possible fact.

In ancient myths of creation, the cosmos is described and symbolized as an "ocean with floating Islands" i.e. very precisely indeed when comparing this to modern knowledge of cosmos of galaxies all over the place.

For the Hindu´s, these myths were/are the cosmological facts - which stunns modern people who are brainwashed to believe that all informations comes only by technical instruments.

When a myth states the entire Solar System to orbit a center, anyone with a basic astronomical knowledge can only conclude the Mound Meru as a symbol for the Milky Way center.

 

[Riverwolf]

(Post 1 of 2)

By the very text of the Mount Meru myth, you can only come to the conclusion that they did. But of course, this demands you to believe in the mytho-cosmological symbol of a cosmic mond/mountain.

In other words, it requires that I approach these stories with a previous assumption; i.e., yours.

Why should I?

The provided link speaks largely of psychological and geographical realms and borders. With this approach, different deities become "psychological entities" instead of celestial matters, and the borders becomes the outskirts of a village, whereas the myth of creation speaks of "spherical dimensions of cosmos" and descriptions of the Earth, the looks of day- and nigth Sky and of the Milky Way contours.

You see? You interpret the Outeryard horizontally as a geographic myth

As is tradition.

- but IMO it is a spherical term which describes a dimension outside the Earth, as also described here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_cosmology#Worlds_of_Sumeru #Spatial Cosmology.

There's no indication whatsoever that the pre-Christian Germanic Tribes believed that.

Your entire approach is reinterpreting myths and their languages to fit your own pet hypothesis, but how much have you actually looked? Have you found anything that could potentially cause problems in this hypothesis? (If you're an honest researcher, you should). Because if there were actually records for what the yearday storytellers actually thought the Milky Way that they saw was, and if those records indicated that they had no idea that it was our cosmic home and a giant spiral structure (which, frankly, the very name "Milky Way" indicates), then that would throw all kinds of holes into your hypothesis.

So, let's take a look at the other Indo-European stories for the Milky Way that survived. From here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milky_Way_(mythology)

Keep in mind, these are ONLY the Indo-European ones. (Note: I removed the third paragraph from the "Greek and Roman" segment, because all the stories were listed with [citation needed].)

Armenian
Ancient Armenian mythology called the Milky Way the "Straw Thief's Way". According to legend, the god Vahagn stole some straw from the Assyrian king Barsham and brought it to Armenia during a cold winter. When he fled across the heavens, he spilled some of the straw along the way.[1]

Greek and Roman
The Greek name for the Milky Way (Γαλαξίας Galaxias) is derived from the word for milk (γάλα, gala). One legend explains how the Milky Way was created by Heracles when he was a baby.[2] His father, Zeus, was fond of his son, who was born of the mortal woman Alcmene. He decided to let the infant Heracles suckle on his divine wife Hera's milk when she was asleep, an act which would endow the baby with godlike qualities. When Hera woke up and realized that she was breastfeeding an unknown infant, she pushed him away and the spurting milk became the Milky Way.

A story told by the Roman Hyginus in the Poeticon astronomicon (ultimately based on Greek myth) says that the milk came from the goddess Ops (Greek Rhea), or Opis, the wife of Saturn (Greek Cronus). Saturn swallowed his children to ensure his position as head of the Pantheon and sky god, and so Ops conceived a plan to save her newborn son Jupiter (Greek Zeus): She wrapped a stone in infant's clothes and gave it to Saturn to swallow. Saturn asked her to nurse the child once more before he swallowed it, and the milk that spurted when she pressed her nipple against the rock eventually became the Milky Way.[8]

Hindu
In the Hindu collection of stories called Bhagavata Purana, all the visible stars and planets moving through space are likened to a dolphin that swims through the water, and the heavens are called śiśumãra cakra, the dolphin disc. The Milky Way forms the abdomen of the dolphin and is called Akasaganga which means "The Ganges River of the Sky".[9]

According to Hindu mythology, Vishnu lies meditating on Shesha with his consort Lakshmi, in the Kshira Sagara (Sea of Milk).

Now, all of these are pretty interesting. In Armenian, Greek, and Roman, there's consistently a theme of spilling. The Greco-Roman fascination with female breasts is on full display, here, and is where we get the term "Milky Way" in the first place: literally a reference to divine breastmilk.

However, the one I find most interesting is the Armenian story. A figure stealing a special "thing" from another figure, and then spilling it while fleeing.

Now, I don't know about you, but to me, that sounds awfully familiar...

 

[Riverwolf]

(Post 2 of 2)

STORY TIME!​

The Mead of Poetry​

​

At the conclusion of the Aesir-Vanir War, the Aesir and Vanir gods and goddesses sealed their truce by spitting into a great vat. From their spittle they formed a being whom they named Kvasir (“Fermented Berry Juice”). Kvasir was the wisest human that had ever lived; none were able to present him with a question for which he didn’t have a satisfying answer. He became famous and traveled throughout the world giving counsel.

Kvasir was invited to the home of two dwarves, Fjalar (“Deceiver”) and Galar (“Screamer”). Upon his arrival, the dwarves slew Kvasir and brewed mead with his blood. This mead contained Kvasir’s ability to dispense wisdom, and was appropriately named Óðrœrir (“Stirrer of Inspiration”). Any who drank of it would become a poet or a scholar.

When the gods questioned them about Kvasir’s disappearance, Fjalar and Galar told them that Kvasir had choked on his wisdom.

The two dwarves apparently delighted in murder. Soon after this incident, they took the giant Gilling out to sea and drowned him for sport. The sounds of Gilling’s weeping wife irritated them, so they killed her as well, this time by dropping a millstone on her head as she passed under the doorway of their house.

But this last mischief got the dwarves into trouble. When Gilling’s son, Suttung (“Heavy with Drink”), learned of his father’s murder, he seized the dwarves and, at low tide, carried them out to a reef that would soon be covered by the waves. The dwarves pleaded for their lives, and Suttung granted their request only when they agreed to give him the mead they had brewed with Kvasir’s blood. Suttung hid the vats of mead in a chamber beneath the mountain Hnitbjorg (“Pulsing Rock”), where he appointed his daughter Gunnlod (“Invitation to Battle”) to watch over them.

Now Odin, the chief of the gods, who is restless and unstoppable in his pursuit of wisdom, was displeased with the precious mead’s being hoarded away beneath a mountain. He bent his will toward acquiring it for himself and those he deemed worthy of its powers.

Disguised as a wandering farmhand, Odin went to the farm of Suttung’s brother, Baugi. There he found nine servants mowing hay. He approached them, took out a whetstone from under his cloak, and offered to sharpen their scythes. They eagerly agreed, and afterwards marveled at how well their scythes cut the hay. They all declared this to be the finest whetstone they had ever seen, and each asked to purchase it. Odin consented to sell it, “but,” he warned them, “you must pay a high price.” He then threw the stone into the air, and, in their scramble to catch it, the nine killed each other with their scythes.

Odin then went to Baugi’s door and introducted himself as “Bölverkr” (“Worker of Misfortune”). He offered to do the work of the nine servants who had, as he told it, so basely killed each other in a dispute in the field earlier that day. As his reward, he demanded a sip of Suttung’s mead.

Baugi responded that he had no control of the mead and that Suttung guarded it jealously, but that if Bölverkr could truly perform the work of nine men, he would help the apparent farmhand to obtain his desire.

At the end of the growing season, Odin had fulfilled his promise to the giant, who agreed to accompany him to Suttung to inquire about the mead. Suttung, however, angrily refused. The disguised god, reminding Baugi of their bargain, convinced the giant to aid him in gaining access to Gunnlod’s dwelling. The two went to a part of the mountain that Baugi knew to be nearest to the underground chamber. Odin took an auger out from his cloak and handed it to Baugi for hill to drill through the rock. The giant did so, and after much work announced that the hole was finished. Odin blew into the hole to verify Baugi’s claim, and when the rock-dust blew back into his face, he knew that his companion had lied to him. The suspicious god then bade the giant to finish what he had started. When Baugi proclaimed the hole to be complete for a second time, Odin once again blew into the hole. This time the debris were blown through the hole.

Odin thanked Baugi for his help, shifted his shape into that of a snake, and crawled into the hole. Baugi stabbed after him with the auger, but Odin made it through just in time.

Once inside, he assumed the form of a charming young man and made his way to where Gunnlod guarded the mead. He won her favor and secured a promise from her that, if he would sleep with her for three nights, she would grant him three sips of the mead. After the third night, Odin went to the mead, which was in three vats, and consumed the contents of each vat in a single draught.

Odin then changed his shape yet again, this time into that of an eagle, and flew off toward Asgard, the gods’ celestial stronghold, with his prize in his throat. Suttung soon discovered this trickery, took on the form of another eagle, and flew off in pursuit of Odin.

When the gods spied their leader approaching with Suttung close behind him, they set out several vessels at the rim of their fortress. Odin reached the abode of his fellow gods before Suttung could catch him, and the giant retreated in anguish. As Odin came to the containers, he regurgitated the mead into them. As he did so, however, a few drops fell from his beak to Midgard, the world of humankind, below. These drops are the source of the abilities of all bad and mediocre poets and scholars. But the true poets and scholars are those to whom Odin dispenses his mead personally and with care.​

http://norse-mythology.org/tales/the-mead-of-poetry/​

Of course the Milky Way is significantly more than just "a few drops of Mead." But that's hardly surprising, since this story as we have it today comes from Snorri's Edda, and he was trying to preserve the stories he loved. As a Christian, he may not have been fully aware of their original significance or context; I mean, he did say that a great Eagle that has a small Hawk on its forehead sits upon the World Tree, as opposed to the more likely (and sensible) notion that it's a Rooster up there, and the "Hawk" is actually its comb.

While we don't have more than that, to my knowledge, there is another interesting parallel. From the above Wikipedia page on the Finno-Uralic stories:

Finno-Ugric
Among the Finns, Estonians and related peoples, the Milky Way was and is called "The Pathway of the Birds" (Finnish: Linnunrata, Estonian: Linnutee). The Finns observed that the migratory birds used the galaxy as a guideline to travel south, where they believed Lintukoto (bird home) resided.

In Estonian folklore it is believed that the birds are led by a white bird with the head of a maiden who chases birds of prey away.[4] The maiden, the goddess Lindu, was the Queen of the Birds and the daughter of Uko, the King of the Sky. After refusing the suits of the Sun and Moon for being too predictable in their routes and the Pole Star for being fixed, she fell in love with the Light of North for its beauty. They became engaged, but the inconstant Light of North left her soon afterward. The tears of the broken-hearted Lindu fell on her wedding veil, which became the Milky Way when her father brought her to heaven so she could reign by his side and guide the migrating birds, who followed the trail of stars in her veil.[5] Only later did scientists indeed confirm this observation; the migratory birds use the Milky Way as a guide to travel to warmer, southern lands during the winter.[6][7]

The name in the Indo-European Baltic languages has the same meaning (Lithuanian: Paukščių Takas, Latvian: Putnu Ceļš).

While the Finno-Uralic languages are not (far as we can tell) Indo-European, there's enough geographic proximity between their speakers to assume plenty of cultural overlap. The Eddic Odin takes the form of a bird, and in this Estonian tale we have birds front-and-center. (As well as a fascinating phenomenon that's an actual example of something ancient peoples noticed that modern scientists only recently confirmed.)

So, based on these two things, it's highly likely that the pre-Christian Germanic Tribes believed that the Milky Way was the spilt Mead of Poetry. This is something I'd not considered before this conversation, so I'm rather glad we had it, if nothing else. I should look in Grimm's Fairy Tales to see if there's other parallels to be found there.

 

[Riverwolf]

This is pure speculations which derives from the Big Bang theory. "The expansion of the Universe from a single point where the entire Universe is the center/point"? It says nothing more than the entire Universe exist everywhere.

Okay, before you say anything more about the Big Bang, brush up on it:

 

[Native]

: ↑
"Native said
"By the very text of the Mount Meru myth, you can only come to the conclusion that they did. But of course, this demands you to believe in the mytho-cosmological symbol of a cosmic mond/mountain.

In other words, it requires that I approach these stories with a previous assumption; i.e., yours.
Why should I?

I don´t know why you should. But you should use your own assumptions just by analyzing the posted text and then come to the correct and logical conclusion.

I still wish to stick to this topic and I´m very familiar with the rest of your posts - including the pros and cons for Big Bang, and I don´t think we can get any closer each other anyway.

 

[Riverwolf]

I don´t know why you should.

The answer is that I shouldn't unless you give me a good reason.

But you should use your own assumptions just by analyzing the posted text and then come to the correct and logical conclusion.

Which, of course, cannot be anything but your own, right?

 

[Native]

The Hindu myth notes that the Sun along with all the planets in the Solar System revolve around Mount Meru as one unit".

If you don´t think this is reason enough for you to analyze the text and draw your own conclusions, there is nothing more I can do to help you.

 

[Riverwolf]

If you don´t think this is reason enough for you to analyze the text and draw your own conclusions, there is nothing more I can do to help you.

Well, let me approach this in a different manner.

You got that quote from Wikipedia. Now I ask you this: where did Wikipedia get it?

 

[Native]

Well, let me approach this in a different manner.

You got that quote from Wikipedia. Now I ask you this: where did Wikipedia get it?

Probably from authors who have been working with Comparative Mythology and Religion. And the authors got it from reading the specific religious texts.

You can also read of Mount Meru here if you don´t like wikipedia - http://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/concepts/meru.asp - Here the text states: Mount Meru should not be mistaken as an ordinary mountain . . .

 

[Native]

Some mytho-cosmological thoughts of the "Axis Mundi" and "Primordial Mound/Mount"- concepts.

“The axis mundi (also cosmic axis, world axis, world pillar, center of the world, world tree), in certain beliefs and philosophies, is the world center, or the connection between Heaven and Earth. As the celestial pole and geographic pole, it expresses a point of connection between sky and earth where the four compass directions meet”. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_mundi

Comment: The astronomical subject of “axis mundi”, the celestial poles, should not be confused with the mythical subject of the “Cosmic/Primordial Mound” from where the first firm soil is created in the ancient telling of creation.

“In the creation myth of Khmun, the primeval flood or ocean was made up of four elements, personified as balanced pairs of male and female Deities: Infinity (or Formlessness), represented by the God Heh and the Goddess Hauhet; Darkness, by the God Kek and the Goddess Kauket; Water, by the God Nun and the Goddess Naunet; and Air or Hidden Power, personified by the God Amun and the Goddess Amaunet.

These eight Deities swirled in and among the primordial floodwaters until they came together in a burst of flame to create the first mound of earth, called the Isle of Fire”. From - http://www.thaliatook.com/OGOD/amaunet.html

My comment: As in the biblical text of creation, the concept of light = flame begins the creation of the firmament.

There is a mytho-cosmological difference between the concept of “axis mundi” and the concept of the “cosmic mound”, “called the “Isle of Flame”. The axis mundi, the celestial pole, cannot be described as the “Isle of Flame” as with the cosmic mound where the first firm soil is formatted. Link - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatenen

The contexts of Atum-Ra as “a fiery light” and of the cosmic/primordial mound as an “Isle of Flame” - and the overall association to the Milky Way via goddess Hathor, all points towards the Milky Way and it´s fiery central light of formation. Links - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogdoad#In_Egyptian_mythology and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hathor#Relationships.2C_associations.2C_images.2C_and_symbols

My conclusion: The sacred mountain/ the primordial mound/mountain of light represents the luminous Milky Way center around which the Solar System orbits, as said in the Hindu myth of Mount Meru.

 

[Riverwolf]

Probably from authors who have been working with Comparative Mythology and Religion. And the authors got it from reading the specific religious texts.

Anyone can edit Wikipedia. Could have been fellow amateur enthusiasts for all we know.

You can also read of Mount Meru here if you don´t like wikipedia - http://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/concepts/meru.asp - Here the text states: Mount Meru should not be mistaken as an ordinary mountain . . .

Of course not. That's what actual Hindus have been saying this whole thread.

Some mytho-cosmological thoughts of the "Axis Mundi" and "Primordial Mound/Mount"- concepts.

“The axis mundi (also cosmic axis, world axis, world pillar, center of the world, world tree), in certain beliefs and philosophies, is the world center, or the connection between Heaven and Earth. As the celestial pole and geographic pole, it expresses a point of connection between sky and earth where the four compass directions meet”. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_mundi

Comment: The astronomical subject of “axis mundi”, the celestial poles, should not be confused with the mythical subject of the “Cosmic/Primordial Mound” from where the first firm soil is created in the ancient telling of creation.

“In the creation myth of Khmun, the primeval flood or ocean was made up of four elements, personified as balanced pairs of male and female Deities: Infinity (or Formlessness), represented by the God Heh and the Goddess Hauhet; Darkness, by the God Kek and the Goddess Kauket; Water, by the God Nun and the Goddess Naunet; and Air or Hidden Power, personified by the God Amun and the Goddess Amaunet.

These eight Deities swirled in and among the primordial floodwaters until they came together in a burst of flame to create the first mound of earth, called the Isle of Fire”. From - http://www.thaliatook.com/OGOD/amaunet.html

My comment: As in the biblical text of creation, the concept of light = flame begins the creation of the firmament.

There is a mytho-cosmological difference between the concept of “axis mundi” and the concept of the “cosmic mound”, “called the “Isle of Flame”. The axis mundi, the celestial pole, cannot be described as the “Isle of Flame” as with the cosmic mound where the first firm soil is formatted. Link - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatenen

The contexts of Atum-Ra as “a fiery light” and of the cosmic/primordial mound as an “Isle of Flame” - and the overall association to the Milky Way via goddess Hathor, all points towards the Milky Way and it´s fiery central light of formation. Links - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogdoad#In_Egyptian_mythology and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hathor#Relationships.2C_associations.2C_images.2C_and_symbols

My conclusion: The sacred mountain/ the primordial mound/mountain of light represents the luminous Milky Way center around which the Solar System orbits, as said in the Hindu myth of Mount Meru.

This conclusion is based on the premise that everything is created in the Core in the first place, which you stated earlier and have not supported at all. Do you have any astronomical evidence for this?

 

[Native]

Anyone can edit Wikipedia. Could have been fellow amateur enthusiasts for all we know.

It could and it sometimes seem so too. But then again: You can find the very same descriptions in many other encyclopedia which repeats the same mytho-cosmological nonsense. (The best with wikipedia is if several authors are writing on the same topic)

This conclusion is based on the premise that everything is created in the Core in the first place, which you stated earlier and have not supported at all. Do you have any astronomical evidence for this?

Read all about it https://www.google.dk/?gws_rd=ssl#safe=off&q=galaxy+formation+inside+out

 

[Riverwolf]

It could and it sometimes seem so too. But then again: You can find the very same descriptions in many other encyclopedia which repeats the same mytho-cosmological nonsense. (The best with wikipedia is if several authors are writing on the same topic)

And without sources, I can't know any of this for sure.

Read all about it https://www.google.dk/?gws_rd=ssl#safe=off&q=galaxy+formation+inside+out

Show me an actual, peer-reviewed scientific paper, not a useless Google search.

 

[Native]

Show me an actual, peer-reviewed scientific paper, not a useless Google search.

"Useless Google search"? How can you judge this without even reading the links? Put yourself together or I´ll stop wasting my time on you.

 

[Riverwolf]

"Useless Google search"? How can you judge this without even reading the links?

I'm pretty sure that because of Google's search algorithms, you can't know exactly what links I was shown.

Meanwhile, since apparently you have no sources of your own(judging by the reluctance to share any if you did, and your use of a search to back up your claim), let me say this: I did a bit of searching on my own regarding the current theories of galactic formation. Not once did I find anything about the Core being somehow the "source" of everything in the galaxy. If anything, the current theories on galactic formation pretty much boil down to this: we don't really know, yet.

And when we don't know, we who aren't currently studying the physics, doing the calculations, looking at telescope pictures, or other such actual astronomer work, should not be trying to fill in those knowledge gaps with our pet hypotheses unless we have some real, original, falsifiable data.

Though of course the Core can't be the source of everything in a galaxy, considering that many galaxies don't even have Cores. Unless you can point to the Cores in the Large and Small Magellanic Clouds?

 

[Native]

I'm pretty sure that because of Google's search algorithms, you can't know exactly what links I was shown.

The key search words used were: galaxy+formation+inside+out. This should give you the relevant links - and it did, but you didn´t care.

Thanks for the conversation.

 

[Riverwolf]

The key search words used were: galaxy+formation+inside+out. This should give you the relevant links - and it did, but you didn´t care.

Nope, because that's not how you share your sources.

'Course, one of them looked like a simple news article. Not terribly reliable.

Thanks for the conversation.

No prob. Gonna look more into that birds' path thing.

 

[gnostic]

"Useless Google search"? How can you judge this without even reading the links? Put yourself together or I´ll stop wasting my time on you.

Useless, because Google often spit useless and irrelevant search results that are not what the user intended.

If you were serious about any of your claims, you would select your sources for us to read, by providing your chosen links.

Like Riverwolf said, find peer-reviewed scientific papers that support your claims.

Telling Riverwolf to use Google is not all that helpful.

 

[Native]

Useless, because Google often spit useless and irrelevant search results that are not what the user intended.

My keywords were very precise and showed relevant links which descibes the initial scientific discoveries of the galactic-inside-out-formation which I´ve claimed for some 20 years now.

Like Riverwolf said, find peer-reviewed scientific papers that support your claims.

Both you and Rivervolf should know how difficult it is to get new knowledge and discoveries trough a peer review commission because these people are stock in all kinds of bias and are not able to judge knew ideas.

Telling Riverwolf to use Google is not all that helpful.

Well, we never know if my linkings was helpfull for Rivervolf because he didn´t bother to read them.

Edit: I´ve made this preliminary paper which explains the basics of the galactic formation. - https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B_ze4R9xrRgzT2gxZ01lQm02aXM

 

[gnostic]

Both you and Rivervolf should know how difficult it is to get new knowledge and discoveries trough a peer review commission because these people are stock in all kinds of bias and are not able to judge knew ideas.

The only people who are able to test any scientist's hypothesis or theory, are those with who were educated or qualified, or have worked in the same field as the author of new hypothesis or theory, hence the scientist's peers.

You wouldn't ask a medical doctor or general practitioner or surgeon to test any astrophysics or physical cosmology, since he (or she) is not a qualified astronomer or astrophysicist. A doctor/GP/surgeon is not astrophysicist's peer.

Nor would astrophysicist be able to operate on someone's brain, heart, lung, kidney, etc or prescribed certain medicine for ill patient. An astrophysicist is not the surgeon's or GP's peer.

And you wouldn't go and ask to theologian, priest or cardinal for their nonexistent expert opinions on matter of biology, geology or astronomy, if he is not a qualified and experienced biologist, geologist or astronomer.

So where else would you go to have review new or updated theory, to be tested, Native?

You are making as if the peer review as some sorts of vast conspiracy.

New ideas are all good and well, but in science, any new idea have to be VERIFIED. In another word, it needed to be tested or the evidence needs to be discovered.

No new idea can be considered true, until (A) there are verifiable evidences to support the scientist's explanation and prediction(s), or (B) that the idea has been repeatedly and rigorously tested (eg experiments or tests).

Sure, a scientist must test his own work, but if this scientist has any integrity, then he must have his hypothesis or theory independently tested by his peers.

The reason why people like Riverwolf would ask for credible sources from peer review, is that he want more than just anyone's opinion.

Riverwolf is no fool, and your biggest mistake would be to underestimate his knowledge in science. And he would prefer to have knowledge and idea that he can verify himself. He would good scientific sources, and not some pseudoscience and biased websites from some creationist quacks.

I am not a scientist. And I have never claim to be one. But I do have background in applied science, especially in physics and a bit of chemistry, that are related to two completely different courses I have done, in civil engineering (after high school, so when I was a lot younger) and in computer science (more specifically in computer programming).

With civil engineering, the science I would have to understand more often understand the materials that I have work with, the physical properties of steel, wood, concrete, etc (including each strength, elasticity, etc), or the forces and pressures that each material can withstand, I had to understand geology and soil for foundation of where buildings or roads to be constructed, etc.

With computer science I had to understand the basic of electricity and electronics, wired and wireless network, etc.

My points in all this about my background in science, is that applied science involved practical knowledge in science that have helped me in my chosen careers. All the physics, chemistry and maths that I was required to learn, gave me appreciation of information gathering through EVIDENCES, TESTS and VERIFIABILITY, and having someone else (a peer) to independently check my work (design and calculations).

Despite not being a scientist, I can understand why people would ask for peer reviewed on scientific papers. Without someone's independently checking on a scientist's work, can lead to error or biased thinking.

My problem with you, I am sure Riverwolf feels the same way, is why should I trust what you have to say or to claim regarding to galactic formation, when you cannot or will not supply scientific (peer reviewed) sources to back up your claim?