The Crimson Universe
Active Member
Where do they go when they discard the body after liberation (videha-mukti)?
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Where do you think the non-dualist hindus go after videha-mukti?
- Thread starter The Crimson Universe
- Start date
-
- Tags
- advaita
I understand that the atma that animated their subtle and gross bodies goes nowhere. The illusion of being separate ends. The subtle bodies return to the elements.
The atman is the Paramatman is Brahman and exists in undisturbed sat-cit-ananda (being-awareness-bliss).
No-"where."
Space is a product of Maya. From Paramartika, there is no place in which to go.
While we're at it, there is no "when." Time is also a product of Maya.
The Crimson Universe
Active Member
I do understand that IT goes nowhere as it is already present everywhere (all-pervasive, omnipresent). Just like the sky doesn't move, Brahman too doesn't move. Like the sky stays in the background and the clouds move infront of it. The same way Brahman in its original unmanifested state stays in the background, and its manifestations (the nama & rupa) moves infront of it.
I imagine Brahman as an infinite field of spirit, pervading all ITS manifestations. These manifestations appear within ITS infinite field of spirit.
What i meant in my question was, what happens to the drop of Brahman that is lying underneath the 5 sheaths.
I guess, IT just stays as it is.
Like @George-ananda said, the manifestations , the sheaths , return back to the five elements of nature, and the drop of Brahman stays as it is... undisturbed ... just like when the pot is broken, the space inside the pot would remain unaffected and be one with the space outside.
==================
For me, Brahman is not that hard to understand. It is maya that is.
I'm trying to wrap my mind around the relationship between Brahman and maya.
In the complete works of Vivekananda, he says, that Brahman becomes or appears as the universe by coming through the glass of maya (time space and causation) , and then he says, in Brahman there is no maya (space time and causation).
Isn't there contradiction in his statement? If there's no maya (space time and causation) in Brahman, then how does Brahman uses this maya to appear as this world in the first place? -
Here's the excerpt taken from his -
The Complete Works of Swami Vivekananda, Volume 2- Jnana Yoga-
The Absolute has become the universe. By this is not only meant the material world, but the mental world, the spiritual world — heavens and earths, and in fact, everything that exists. Mind is the name of a change, and body the name of another change, and so on, and all these changes compose our universe. This Absolute has become the universe by coming through time, space, and causation. This is the central idea of Advaita. Time, space, and causation are like the glass through which the Absolute is seen, and when It is seen on the lower side, It appears as the universe. Now we at once gather from this that in the Absolute there is neither time, space, nor causation (maya). The idea of time cannot be there, seeing that there is no mind, no thought. The idea of space cannot be there, seeing that there is no external change. What you call motion and causation cannot exist where there is only One. We have to understand this, and impress it on our minds, that what we call causation begins after, if we may be permitted to say so, the degeneration of the Absolute into the phenomenal, and not before; that our will, our desire and all these things always come after that.
What do you make out of this contradictory statement of his?
Last edited:
What happens to the wave when it crashes? Was it ever anything else but water?
The "drop" of Brahman is appears as such in vyavaharika. From Paramartika, there was never an underlying drop. The "drop," they sheaths, all merely an appearance in Brahman.
Maya is the result of avidya...incorrect knowledge...ignorance to one's true nature as Brahman.
When you dream at night, to your character in a dream, the dream reality exists as a result of your dream character's ignorance of the person lying in bed asleep. When you awaken from the dream, what happens to the dream reality? What happens to the dream character? From the perspective of your dream character, the dream was quite real. From the perspective of waking consciousness, it was illusory. There is no person what was the character in your dream, nor is there a dream reality. They do not exist in waking consciousness. The were merely an appearance.
The Crimson Universe
Active Member
How can Brahman be the locus of Avidya?
Through attachment and desire.
The Crimson Universe
Active Member
Yes, but that's in the vyavaharika plane.
Through attachment, desire etc. we the Brahman (in the form of jivas) become the locus of avidya. We forget our true nature and get trapped in samsara.
But what makes Brahman the locus of avidya, beyond the vyavaharika plane, where the dream/illusion/maya is not active? ... If you say that in the absolute plane there's no avidya or maya then what causes the ripples or waves on the calm surface of Brahman? ... Its got to be maya.
Maya must be inside Brahman in the absolute plane too, in the form of a seed or potential, which ultimately causes all the ripples and waves (nama, rupa, jiva, jagat etc.)
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
@SalixIncendium , @Greg Levenski , @George-ananda .
In Brahman, there is no change and you and me too are none other. The appearances are because of 'maya', an effect of existence of Brahman, you and me. They are illusions. And so is this world and the whole universe. No coming, no going and nowhere to go. Separation is an illusion. Like Salix holds "Aham Brahmasmi'.
In Brahman, there is no change and you and me too are none other. The appearances are because of 'maya', an effect of existence of Brahman, you and me. They are illusions. And so is this world and the whole universe. No coming, no going and nowhere to go. Separation is an illusion. Like Salix holds "Aham Brahmasmi'.
Dreams are a result of REM sleep, just as vyavaharika is a result of Maya. Where is REM sleep in your waking state? REM sleep isn't present during your waking state, just as Maya isn't present in Paramartika.
ajay0
Well-Known Member
Some enlightened beings leave the body, while some hold on to the body for the purpose of instruction through example and precept. The latter does so due to past impressions of compassion. This was told to me by an enlightened master with whom I was acquainted.
Enlightenment is the state of a very intense blissful intoxication of a permanent nature much superior to any other pleasures. It is obviously the prize of self-conquest, which is considered the greatest conquest of all.
Also the dropping of the body is similar to placing a glass on the table after drinking it rather than holding it on the hand all the time.
Brahman is pure consciousness with bliss as one of its attributes ( Sat-chit-ananda ).
So identification with pure consciousness through enlightenment is to be effortlessly blissful as well.
The master's vibrations of bliss and peace is received by those around him too, and this is why most people are unconsciously attracted to the company of an enlightened sage. The places where such sages lived turns out to be pilgrimage spots later on.
Yes, but the ripples come from a different area or from the metaphorical "border-shore" of Brahman - where one side (3/4) is purely spiritual and the other side (1/4) has these dormant seeds.
This is why most prefer to go to the loka of their Ishta-Dev or stay at the Lotus Feet of their IshTa-Dev or connected to their IshTa to prevent the ripples.
Keval advaita - as in absolute moksha - means for the individual self to be extinguished - nirvAN. To stop existing. So that "energy-spot" is recycled in Brahman.
Problem is not the nirvAN. The issue arises when the mind or individuality that is supposed to be "gone" has not actually gone, but is dormant with the seed, i.e. 'on the shore' or 'this side' of the VirAj river.
Last edited:
The Crimson Universe
Active Member
So you're saying that upon absolute moksha, the individuality of the advaitin is not actually extinguished, but remains in a dormant seed form, again waiting to be manifested or reincarnated in the next kalpa?
And according to the advaitins, what remains in the 3/4th portion of Brahman? The dualists like the iskconites say that this 3/4th portion consists of vaikuntha and goloka... but what does advaita say?
Last edited:
So you're saying that upon absolute moksha, the individuality of the advaitin is not actually extinguished, but remains in a dormant seed form, again waiting to be manifested or reincarnated in the next kalpa?
Not always, not necessarily and not as a rule. I said there is a chance of that happening.
Irrespective of this school or that, there are 5 types of mukti explained in the shAstra. [The traditional or original schools that focused on Oneness (including Adi Shankaracharya) were also theistic. It is a modern trend to induce atheism in advaita darshan.]
1. sAlokya = mukta jiva being in the same loka as VishNu, Shiva or Devi
2. sAmIpya = mukta jIva in close proximity (sAnidhya) of Ishwara, IshTa Dev --- VishNu, Shiva or Devi
3. sArUpya = mukta jiva is graced with the rUpa like the IshTa - e.g. VishNu's pArshads look like Him
4. sAyujja = Oneness with, merged with, One with the Ishwar, IshTa.
5. kaivalya = There is no trace of the previous individual and this is more about the impersonal , nirguN Brahman remains, as if the jiva never existed.
Now kaivalya is a loaded word and it stems from keval = ONLY. One only, indivisible.
That being said, 'aham BramhAsmi' can apply to 1,2,3,4,5.
So the pure spiritual part of Brahman (3/4) -- will be the moksha realms -- VaikunTha [includes Golok, Saket, Dwarka..] , Shiv Lok (Devi bhakta and Shiv bhakta will be here or in this consciousness)
or when a being experiences mukti in Oneness they will have no pending or accrued karma to burn, and will be Self-Realized and in the pure spirit and One with all existence.
-- shAstras say it is beyond the
14 lokas = 7 lower lokas and
{ 7 higher loka (bhu, bhuvar, swarga, mahar, jana, tapolok (tapasvis go here), and the 14th = Satyalok of BramhA - ved, gayatri... } <= jivas in these realms can be potentially subject to rebirth but not necessarily, as one can attain 'krama-mukti' i.e. incrementally go to higher loka.
Other religions have their own lokas that they call heaven (7 heavens = 7 lokas?) that overlap with the same as a generic classification.
Last edited:
Oh certainly did not mean you or ANYONE on the Hinduism Dir -- and I apologize for not clarifying that.... That is only because people on this Dir are .. from this Dir and familiar with the concepts. I meant that these things can look strange to those who are not Hindu, but more so to those who are non-Hindu athiests
In fact it occurred to me that I should clarify, and came here to find your post.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
If the person is a strong ''advatist' like us.
The Crimson Universe
Active Member
ajay0
Well-Known Member
So you're saying that upon absolute moksha, the individuality of the advaitin is not actually extinguished, but remains in a dormant seed form, again waiting to be manifested or reincarnated in the next kalpa?
Yes, this is what the Hindu scriptures state.
Hanuman, for example, on account of his fast spiritual development coupled with service in the present universal cycle, is said to be promoted to the position of Brahma in the next kalpa or universal cycle.
Mahabali, similarly is said to be promoted to the position of Indra in the next kalpa or universal cycle.
So, it is possible that the soul survives in seed form and resurrects in the next kalpa as per its karma in the past cycle, and gets promoted or even demoted as per its past actions.
Also the so-called individuality of the advaitan is just the misery-prone ego-personality with its likes and dislikes, which is transient in nature. The true individuality is that of the Self which is of an eternal nature and also intensely blissful.
The advaitan loses the false individuality for its true individuality which is actually a far better state.
However, like the frog in the well, we are attached to the well water, instead of the ocean, and is unable to let go of the comfort of the small well due to fear .