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Where do Proponents Of Intelligent Design Propose the Designer Came From?

FreedomIsNatural

FreedomIsNatural

Member
If creaction is nessesary, who created the creator?

Many ID enthusiast claim that evolution is incomplete becuase it does not explain the origin of the first life (which is not evolution's purpose) and thus insist that it should have no scientific standing (using the same 'logic' one could say that Gravity is not true becuase we can not solidly identifiy it's source [though Gravitons are very likely, similar to how Abiogenesis is very likely]). I therfore ask these ID proponents as to where the "Designer" originates. Many Creactionist and ID proponents say that as a complex universe we need a complex being to design it. However if this is the case then why wouldn't an even more complex being be needed to make such a complex being?
 
Jayhawker Soule

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
FreedomIsNatural said:
Many Creactionist and ID proponents say that as a complex universe we need a complex being to design it. However if this is the case then why wouldn't an even more complex being be needed to make such a complex being?
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Simply put, no, primarily because you misstate and bastardize the argument.
 
Revoltingest

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
The common answer I hear from them is that the creator always was, ie, no beginning.
This is a special case. Only material things had a beginning.
 
George-ananda

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
I believe we live in a universe with multiple planes/dimensions beyond our senses. Beings of these higher planes fostered the development of life on our plane. I call this Intelligent Design (different than the Christian Intelligent Design proponents). But above all that is the ultimate designer, God/Brahman, who is the uncreated eternal consciousness for which the universe is His play/drama.
 
M

Mohammad Nur Syamsu

Well-Known Member
FreedomIsNatural said:
If creaction is nessesary, who created the creator?

Many ID enthusiast claim that evolution is incomplete becuase it does not explain the origin of the first life (which is not evolution's purpose) and thus insist that it should have no scientific standing (using the same 'logic' one could say that Gravity is not true becuase we can not solidly identifiy it's source [though Gravitons are very likely, similar to how Abiogenesis is very likely]). I therfore ask these ID proponents as to where the "Designer" originates. Many Creactionist and ID proponents say that as a complex universe we need a complex being to design it. However if this is the case then why wouldn't an even more complex being be needed to make such a complex being?
Click to expand...

There are no creationists who posit a complex being as designer. About all creationists refer to God the holy spirit.
 
Jayhawker Soule

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
As I've noted elsewhere ...

The First Cause argument does not (or, at least, should not) claim that everything requires a cause. Rather, it posits that all natural phenomenon are caused. If this is accepted as true, either (a) there is no first cause, or (b) the first cause must be preternatural.​
 
Guy Threepwood

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
FreedomIsNatural said:
If creaction is nessesary, who created the creator?

Many ID enthusiast claim that evolution is incomplete becuase it does not explain the origin of the first life (which is not evolution's purpose) and thus insist that it should have no scientific standing (using the same 'logic' one could say that Gravity is not true becuase we can not solidly identifiy it's source [though Gravitons are very likely, similar to how Abiogenesis is very likely]). I therfore ask these ID proponents as to where the "Designer" originates. Many Creactionist and ID proponents say that as a complex universe we need a complex being to design it. However if this is the case then why wouldn't an even more complex being be needed to make such a complex being?
Click to expand...

Hello Freedom! Good question

The apparent first cause paradox applies to any explanation; ID or naturalistic mechanism does it not?- where did that come from? So it's a wash- not only that, it's a moot point because here we are, there is obviously a solution one way or the other..

What's not even, I'd argue, is the capacity for creative intelligence v blind chance to create everything we see around us- including gravity and life.

To your analogy- abiogenesis is just one problem with Darwinism, like most creationists, I think the theory of evolution is woefully incomplete even if granted that generous head start
 
McBell

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
Guy Threepwood said:
Hello Freedom! Good question

The apparent first cause paradox applies to any explanation; ID or naturalistic mechanism does it not?- where did that come from? So it's a wash- not only that, it's a moot point because here we are, there is obviously a solution one way or the other..

What's not even, I'd argue, is the capacity for creative intelligence v blind chance to create everything we see around us- including gravity and life.

To your analogy- abiogenesis is just one problem with Darwinism, like most creationists, I think the theory of evolution is woefully incomplete even if granted that generous head start
Click to expand...
Funny how the one time you are absolutely free to throw you god into a gap, you refuse.
 
Kilgore Trout

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
I've seen no evidence that religious people feel any need to be consistent or rational in their arguments. This is just one of many examples.
 
Jayhawker Soule

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Kilgore Trout said:
And yet, I'm always looking for the evidence, yet never see it. I realize that some people are susceptible to semantical tricks, such as using words like "preternatural." Howver, I've never been one to be fooled by rhetoric or semantics.
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^That was petty. I guess I'm done here ...
 
rusra02

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
FreedomIsNatural said:
If creaction is nessesary, who created the creator?

Many ID enthusiast claim that evolution is incomplete becuase it does not explain the origin of the first life (which is not evolution's purpose) and thus insist that it should have no scientific standing (using the same 'logic' one could say that Gravity is not true becuase we can not solidly identifiy it's source [though Gravitons are very likely, similar to how Abiogenesis is very likely]). I therfore ask these ID proponents as to where the "Designer" originates. Many Creactionist and ID proponents say that as a complex universe we need a complex being to design it. However if this is the case then why wouldn't an even more complex being be needed to make such a complex being?
Click to expand...
It makes sense to me that there is an ultimate Source or Creator of all things. As Revelation 4:11 puts it; “You are worthy, Jehovah our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they came into existence and were created.” The scientific evidence points to this conclusion, IMO.
The designer of all things has existed forever and will exist forever.(Psalms 90:2) As to there being any other god, "There is no other God but me;... there is none besides me...For I am God, and there is no one else." (Isaiah 45:21,22)
 
P

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
Guy Threepwood said:
What's not even, I'd argue, is the capacity for creative intelligence v blind chance to create everything we see around us- including gravity and life.
Click to expand...
Could one ever possibly calculate the odds of the Universe having come into existence via blind chance vs. an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, eternal being coming into existence by blind chance? How would you even begin to know which odds were more likely?
 
McBell

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
Emergence said:
Could one ever possibly calculate the odds of the Universe having come into existence via blind chance vs. an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, eternal being coming into existence by blind chance? How would you even begin to know which odds were more likely?
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He has been asked numerous times by myself to present his math, yet so far my requests have been completely ignored.
 
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