Where do muslims find the Bible distorted?

[Theocan]

I know, you guys deem the Bible to be distorted to an extent.

So what passages do muslims believe in and do not believe in?

 

[yousaf]

well we believe that jesus(pbuh) was prophet of god we don't believe that he claimed to be god but he said as mentioned in the quraan worship allah my lord and your lord. anything that is in conciliiation with the quraan we wll accept to be true but anything that goes against the quraan or sunnah then we will call it corrupted

note: we believe that jesus(pbuh) was given the injeel, the injeel does not mean the bible because as you know the bible was not written at the time of jesus as paul is the author of most books of the bible, yes some parts of the bible can be the word of god.

i hope i have answered your question

 

[Nehustan]

It’s quite common to hear that the bible has been doctored. I think that this may be overstated. For instance, most of the time we read the Bible in English, in translation, and for that reason alone theological concepts may not be received as they were intended, i.e. the translation of many linguistic signs as 'God'. That's not so much a reason to dismiss the Bible, more a reason to increase your knowledge of the Judaeo-Christian tradition and its subtleties.

Then we have the fact that Jesus was a scholar. We know this from the story of when he was 'lost' by his parents, and was found giving exegesis of scripture while still a youth. If we add to this the factor that his disciples were, comparatively, simple in regard to scripture (i.e. fishermen?), then there is more than enough room for what Jesus said, and what Jesus is reported to have said, to have some distance between them.

Muslims would be well advised in regard to revelation to bear in mind what the Quran says on the issue of revelation, that truth is added to truth through a slow development. It comes to us this way, contemporarily and historically, because that is how we receive it best. The later revelations can inform the previous, but it is likely that the errors are in our own understanding as opposed to the scripture. The first place we should look for error is in our own intellects.

Bismillah Ar Rahman Ar Raheem

"Those who reject Faith say: "Why is not the Qur'an revealed to him all at once? Thus (is it revealed), that We may strengthen thy heart thereby, and We have rehearsed it to thee in slow, well-arranged stages, gradually." 25:32

"When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not." 16:101

As I was saying to my wife the other day, Muhammad's revelation was not the beginning of Islam, it was the completion (5:3).

 

[Laila]

Good post Nehustan

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Then we have the fact that Jesus was a scholar. We know this from the story of when ...

When one claims to know fact based on story one is essentially fooling oneself.

 

[Nehustan]

When one claims to know fact based on story one is essentially fooling oneself.

Slip of the tongue I actually don't like the word.

But I'll bite anway, been a while since this viper raised its head, or at least since I've been around to witness the forkéd. I take it that you conduct experiments every time you need something proved rather than relying on second hand information, which is, without reproduction...effectively a story? It may be a story told by someone you trust, i.e. a scientist, but without reproduction...well you get the point. Oh what a busy boy you must be.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It may be a story told by someone you trust, i.e. a scientist, but without reproduction...well you get the point.

And why do you trust this particular story as opposed to, for example, the Infancy narratives?

 

[Nehustan]

One of the definitions of a story is that one takes it to be true, in fact the word story can represent a historical document, and actually as opposed to fiction, rather than being such.

This is actually a place for us to discuss Islam, and in this thread particularly to answer supposéd contradictions between Islam, Christianity and Judaism. I do believe that Jesus taught in the Temple, I believed it when I was a Christian, I still believe it as a Muslim.

Whichever word I chose to use, even an inappropriate one (I actually prefer reproducible phenomena when most people say fact, as I said I don't like the word and its usual connotation i.e. immutable), it doesn't detract from the point I was trying to make. Perhaps, tho' leopards don't change their spots, next time you venture into the Islam forum it will be for better ends, i.e. to contribute, rather than cheap point scoring?

 

[Quiddity]

If we add to this the factor that his disciples were, comparatively, simple in regard to scripture (i.e. fishermen?), then there is more than enough room for what Jesus said, and what Jesus is reported to have said, to have some distance between them.

I get that Islam see's Christianity as an offshot of Judaism gone wrong. I get that things develop with time and when people can be more receptive toward it. What I don't get is how Islam didn't just complete Judeo-Christian, but completely change it. There are so many early beliefs and practices that were being taught and practiced that are unseen in Islam.

So...to me...it doesn't look like a development or a completion, but an outright re-invention.

Maybe you can guide me toward all the similarities...cause I sure can't see them.

 

[Nehustan]

If I could be bothered. It looks very much like one revelation to me. As a Christian I looked to rabbinical Judaism to help me understand my Christianity, figuring Jesus was a Jew, and there must be something left of historic Judaism. I seriously considered becoming Jewish, apart from the fact that I couldn't bring myself to renounce Jesus. Actually Islam was put to me by some friends, and at first I had little interest in it, I was much more interested in the Zohar etc. It was actually later on having learnt more about the semiotic in the traditions that the Quran struck me as true. I'm sorry if I can't point it out to you, but I'm not Umberto Eco, my post herein was addressed to Muslims in their acquisition of knowledge, and how it would be wise to approach previous revelations. I was never a bible basher when I was a Christian, I'm even less so as a Muslim, I prefer to read books than try and convince others to.

 

[.lava]

I know, you guys deem the Bible to be distorted to an extent.

So what passages do muslims believe in and do not believe in?

hi

everything i believe in is written in Qur'an. and anything written in Bible (and also in Tavrah) that matches with Qur'an would be considered 'right'. i do not study Bible, i do not have time, i wish i did. there is only one sentence i know that has a place in three books. they all say that is religion of Abraham(PBUH)

here is what verses of Noble Qur'an says;


[5:72] They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Al-Masih the son of Maryam." But said Al-Masih: "O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah, Allah will forbid him the Garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.

[5:73] They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

[5:74] Why turn they not to Allah and seek His Forgiveness? For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

[5:75] Al-Masih, the son of Maryam, was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His Signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!






.

 

[Quiddity]

If I could be bothered. It looks very much like one revelation to me. As a Christian I looked to rabbinical Judaism to help me understand my Christianity, figuring Jesus was a Jew, and there must be something left of historic Judaism. I seriously considered becoming Jewish, apart from the fact that I couldn't bring myself to renounce Jesus. Actually Islam was put to me by some friends, and at first I had little interest in it, I was much more interested in the Zohar etc. It was actually later on having learnt more about the semiotic in the traditions that the Quran struck me as true. I'm sorry if I can't point it out to you, but I'm not Umberto Eco, my post herein was addressed to Muslims in their acquisition of knowledge, and how it would be wise to approach previous revelations. I was never a bible basher when I was a Christian, I'm even less so as a Muslim, I prefer to read books than try and convince others to.

Thanks...

I have both the Zohar and Qu'ran...good stuff. Can't say I agree with it completely of course but I love the mysticism of the Zohar and the submission of the Qu'ran. I can relate to it.

Anyways, I guess I'll have to find the answer myself because I'm not bound to get it by reading the Qu'ran or asking this Imam or that Imam.

 

[Nehustan]

If I step back to say when I was looking for the truth in all the Abrahamic faiths, I found that when I realised that it was all symbolic, that words are symbols, that they stand in place of things, I saw sign and symbol in everything, and it all seemed to add up. I had synchronicity come at me from 360° through the X, Y, and Z; it was quite thrilling. I was lucky I suppose it was before the internet, sometimes there's too much to filter on the interweb. I have no doubt if God wants you to see things a certain way, he's the best one to do it. Having experienced such a thing myself, I'm ill-inclined to put my oar in, it's not just bad manners.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

One of the definitions of a story is that one takes it to be true, ...

I am unfamiliar with such a definition. The fact remains that you reasonably suggest that ...

his disciples were, comparatively, simple in regard to scripture (i.e. fishermen?), then there is more than enough room for what Jesus said, and what Jesus is reported to have said, to have some distance between them.

yet you allow for no 'distance' between the story spun by later apologists and reality while, apparently, rejecting out of hand the authenticity of the Infancy Gospels. And you're entitled to do so. But to then claim "we have the fact that Jesus was a scholar" is simply to confuse belief with fact.

This is actually a place for us to discuss Islam, and in this thread particularly to answer supposéd contradictions between Islam, Christianity and Judaism.

You're right. I apologize for the diversion.

 

[Nehustan]

Actually Islamic tradition teaches that Jesus spoke in his infancy, it's either hadith or perhaps in the Quran itself, which is more relevant to this thread. I of course came to the story first as a Christian.

Let me pull a few definitions from the OED, I think that a fair place to pull definitions of English words from. Like they say, the greatest difference between Americans and Englishmen is the language (I'm assuming you speak American English, but for all I know you could be from Manchester)...

Story, n.1

I. 1. a. A narrative, true or presumed to be true, relating to important events and celebrated persons of a more or less remote past; a historical relation or anecdote. Obs.

2. A historical work, a book of history. Obs.

3. In generalized sense: Historical writing or records; history as a branch of knowledge, or as opposed to fiction. Also, the events recorded or proper to be recorded by historians: = HISTORY n. 4c. Obs.

4. a. A recital of events that have or are alleged to have happened; a series of events that are or might be narrated.

5. a. A narrative of real or, more usually, fictitious events, designed for the entertainment of the hearer or reader; a series of traditional or imaginary incidents forming the matter of such a narrative; a tale.

OED



I take it you're understanding is reached by number 4 or 5?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Well done - both in demonstrating your dictionary skills and your ability to evade the main point of the post. As you wish ...

 

[Nehustan]

Actually the Quran mentions him speaking as an infant, but its actually not at the same point, probably some years before the Temple incident.

"But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?" He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah. He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet and He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live; (He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable; So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)" Maryam 19:29-33

To be honest, to get back to my original point, I think the signs of his being a scholar of scripture is all way through the gospels. Its just a shame we have it by way of whispers rather than by his own hand and inspiration.

 

[Nehustan]

Well done - both in demonstrating your dictionary skills and your ability to evade the main point of the post. As you wish ...

Somebody said (about 2 years ago), in regard to reading and acquisition of knowledge 'Simple ignorance is curable - willful ignorance is criminal.' In some situations I'd argue that simple ignorance is not curable. I’d have thought that the word ‘story’ being in ‘history’ was a bit of a giveaway?

And as to sidestepping, my faith is personal. I’m not looking to convert people, so what my fellows Muslims and I (who I was advising that it is unwise to look for error in the bible, and how the obvious faults in the gospels probably came about, i.e. whispers) believe or discuss is really neither here nor there.

 

[Nehustan]

And actually in another Surah it again speaks of him speaking in his infancy, and as a preacher, i.e. to the people, by which we can read a subtext that he was learnéd in scripture.

"Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah. He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous." Al-Imran, 3:45-46

 

[Peace]

And actually in another Surah it again speaks of him speaking in his infancy, and as a preacher, i.e. to the people, by which we can read a subtext that he was learnéd in scripture.

"Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah. He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous." Al-Imran, 3:45-46

The verses that right after shows that He was learned in scriptures.

47. She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!

48. "And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,
49. "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah.s leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah.s leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;
50. "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me. 51. "'It is Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'" Quran; 3:47-51