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where are the miracles?

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Beam me up, Scotty
One day perhaps. :)

Say, I just thought of a quote from someone you should respect, that is saying exactly what I am saying. So, rather than succumb to the temptation to categorize what I'm saying, I'll let this guy here express it for you. Categorize me with him....

“The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. He to whom the emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand wrapped in awe, is as good as dead —his eyes are closed. The insight into the mystery of life, coupled though it be with fear, has also given rise to religion. To know what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty, which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their most primitive forms—this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness.”

~ Albert Einstein, Living Philosophies​

Beam me up, indeed!
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
Einstein quotes..hmm..

"About God, I cannot accept any concept based on the authority of the Church... As long as I can remember. I have resented mass indoctrination. I cannot prove to you there is no personal God, but if I were to speak of him, I would be a liar. I do not believe in the God of theology who rewards good and punishes evil. His universe is not ruled by wishful thinking, but by immutable laws"
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Einstein quotes..hmm..

"About God, I cannot accept any concept based on the authority of the Church... As long as I can remember. I have resented mass indoctrination. I cannot prove to you there is no personal God, but if I were to speak of him, I would be a liar. I do not believe in the God of theology who rewards good and punishes evil. His universe is not ruled by wishful thinking, but by immutable laws"
Yes, as I said. Put two and two together now. :)

This might help: You said,

Originally Posted by Altfish:
I don't view god as anything; god is a man made thing, he/she doesn't exist. The god I hear about from believers is far from a loving parent he is a jealous megalomaniac, but like I say, it is all made up.

Then I said:

I don't believe in that God you describe. So that makes me an atheist like you. We don't believe in the same thing.


You did read that, right? So Einstein reject that God, that I reject. Yet Einstein speaks of the Ineffable Mystery, beyond what our "dull faculties" (reason and science) can penetrate, but that which can in fact be known. So, isn't what I am saying what Einstein said? If not, then point out how it's different?
 
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brokensymmetry

ground state
Because of personal experience of the ineffable, of the transcendent.


There's the problem right there. You're looking for a cognitive reason to logically "believe" God exists. As I said before God is far more subtle, but very much discernible. One knows God by simply opening oneself and allowing, not by dissecting and analyzing. I say this because you qualified, "reason to think".

There is an interesting point though in what you ask, which is in essence "Give me a sign that I may believe". Or put another way, "I need something tangible that it may inspire faith". That to me does sum the desire for a miracle requests by people. You're hardly alone. The first thing I would say is that its kind of getting off on the wrong foot. It would seem the person is wowed their way into following a path of belief, but it can well turn a person's attention away from their own deep internal desire to touch and to know the ineffable, to a constant looking outside themselves to find validation for their beliefs as their faith ebbs and tides. "Where are you God? Give me a sign!". Never quite looking in the right place. And never as a result growing spiritually and knowing God in all things present.

All one needs to do is look at these churches which are miracle shows. People come to the feeding trough to have their weekly infusion of faith from witnessing things perceived as outside themselves being brought into the world by miracle. So much of that too of course is staged or manufactured, and to me keeps someone from really knowing the nature of faith in themselves. It began looking outside "from on high", rather than looking within. And as a result they are ungrounded. There are no deep roots of faith through self-knowledge, which is a knowledge of God.

I would say if someone says they would believe if they could only see a sign from on-high, that what they should do is stop and in silence look within to what that seed of desire is within themselves is. What is it reaching toward? What is it that deep within is going on that the reasoning and rational mind is trying to find some sort of an illusion of validation for this wholly non-rational desire that appears to the mind to violate reason? (There is a marked difference between the non-rational and the irrational). In simply existing with an awareness of that 'seed' of desire of the transcendent, which I'll call it, not judging it with the mind, not trying to explain it rationally but simply existing with it an allowing it to be, that as we relax ourselves with ourselves rather than being at odds, what opens to us becomes the answer we were looking for. "Where is God?"

If you define where you think God is, or should be, you will not see God. But yet that seed desire will continue to be, regardless of how deeply we cover it and try to smother it out, or even avoid it by being super-religious. Yes, religion can very much be a way to avoid opening ourselves to God. Worse actually because it disguises that avoidance.


I did not state nor claim they did.


Yes of course they had pragmatic concerns, and yes they used rational thought. But you are mistaken to believe that they were attempting to be modern historians in the sense of recording facts solely for facts sake. Have you never heard the axiom that history is written by those who win the day? It's "their" history, through their eyes, their perceptions of themselves. Everyone does this actually. We rewrite our own histories. Historians today are well aware of this fact of history. You are mistaken that people were dispassionate recorders of data. And even if they made such a rare attempt, what would come out would never be freed from their won influences through cultural lens. This is a all part of that myth of a "pregiven" world, that the facts are out there and if we can just get to it with the right tools, then we can know the truth. It simply does not, and cannot work that way.


Again, I never stated that. And you missed my point that was within what I said. It's not that they were "trying" to create stories. They did view these as factual. But what was "factual" to them is within a mythological framework of reality. What is "factual" to us is within a rational framework of reality. There's the difference. To give a great modern example, take a look at childhood development. Do you think a five year old's worldview, the model of reality through which he interprets events, is identical with that of a 50 year old? No! Of course not. The 50 year old's worldview is radically different than the child's. There was a major shift that happened in his development. And as a result, nearly everything he sees and experiences in the world is modeled differently and interpreted, understood, and spoken about differently - even if he uses the same words a five-year-old does.

Do you accept that evolution really happens? Do you believe nothing changed for us a species, no major shifts in conscious awareness as the whole of culture and civilzations influenced and facilitated these shifts? Do you believe the cave man was a modern rationalist? Even if they had the brain capacity, they still had to evolve mentally. So yes, people had practical concerns and yes they had rational minds, but they still as a whole saw the world governed by external forces, gods, spirits, etc. That is the framework through which they would speak about the world as they understood it, and so that understanding permeates their stories with that image of reality as it appeared to them.

They weren't "wrong", they were simply seeing and speaking of the world through that particular lens, just as we today see and speak of the world through our particular lens, and just as the world of tomorrow when the next major shift happens will see and speak of the world through that new, more evolved lens and our world will appear quaint and primitive to them. And I'm not speaking of scientific knowledge, but how we understand the whole of reality which will include, but not be defined by science as Modernity attempts to make it.

Make more sense now? They were not Modernists. There was a shift in how we as a whole began to see the world around the time of the Enlightenment. We see the world, largely, in rationalist terms. That's the modern framework of reality. We reason and analyze and dissect. The gods are side matter, not the set of eyes we look at reality through anymore. Just as when little five-year-old Bobby doesn't uses those eyes anymore when he became 13.


I see no issues with understanding them. They were seeing through the set of eyes they had in their historical development. To insist on that be the reality of things in speaking about God, is like trying to force-fit the views of the ancients who were beginning to understand science as the authorities over science today! Think about it. :)

I could conjure up anything to exist by allowing myself to experience the 'ineffable'. That isn't a good reason to think it actually, objectively, exists as a part of the world. The fact that people have such widely varying conceptions of the theological is evidence of the great limitations to that approach. Hence, my desire for some sort of evidence. I simply don't trust myself and my own private judgments to determine the ultimate nature of the universe... and I don't think anybody should. I don't desire to be 'wowed'. I desire to believe true things about the world.

The rest of this is quite incredible. What sort of gross morphological changes in brain structure do you posit happened so that we evolved 'mentally' to the fact obsessed, reason obsessed state that we are in? And since that is clearly an objective claim, what evidence do you have for that one? An ancestor of mine from 1000 years ago is going to have the same brain structure as I do. The thing is, he had more false beliefs about how the world worked than I do. I suspect that people 1000 yrs from now will likely have less false beliefs about the world than I do also.

It's either the case that the world was covered by a flood several thousand years ago or not. It was the case that God created the world in 6 distinct stages through personal intervention or not. It is the case that Jesus, in his original body, resurrected from the dead or not. These are not different-but-equal ways to view the world. They cannot both be right.
 

The Adept

Member
Here is a question that has been on my mind. If you are a part of a religion that stems from the Bible (hebrew Bible) then where are the fantastic miraculous happenings? Why aren't they occurring now? Think of the people God turned into salt, the floodings, the plagues, the talking of animals, the destroying of cities. Why doesn't this stuff occur now? Why... actually... are there no miracles that can really be confirmed as such occurring?

There is no god to do them; there are few to write such fantasy too?

Do the gods of Olympus still practice divine intervention upon the mortals...?
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I could conjure up anything to exist by allowing myself to experience the 'ineffable'.
Do you conjure up the deep sense of connection to the universe you feel when you look into the night sky, or sitting silently along a lake at sunset? Those are places people commonly experience the ineffable, as Einstein said, "He to whom the emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand wrapped in awe, is as good as dead —his eyes are closed." You don't "conjure" this up. It erupts from within you, unless you are "as good as dead".

That isn't a good reason to think it actually, objectively, exists as a part of the world.
Well, if you experience it, it certainly is part of the experience of being alive and part of this world. It's not a fiction.

The fact that people have such widely varying conceptions of the theological is evidence of the great limitations to that approach.
Who is talking about concepts? There's lots of concepts of God. I'm not talking about theological definitions. I love this quote from a Hindu mystic who says this well, "Theologians may quarrel, but mystics the world over speak the same language". It doesn't matter if we paint the picture in red or blue or green or yellow. It the strokes of the brush, the expression of that self-same shared Heart that speaks. And that is the experience of the ineffable itself.

Hence, my desire for some sort of evidence. I simply don't trust myself and my own private judgments to determine the ultimate nature of the universe... and I don't think anybody should.
I don't think any mystic would claim to define the ultimate nature of the universe - certainly not in regard to science and physics as Einstein himself went beyond physics to speak of this. No one can define the Ultimate, as that would make it less that that which your understanding can grasp.

But the real point I wish to draw out here is that you expressed you don't trust your subjective experiences. I think just the opposite should be your focus, not looking outside yourself for answers and so-called "objective truth" (which is itself ultimately a myth), but to learn to know and trust your subjective self - anew, or for the first time if necessary To know yourself, to trust yourself, is to know God. (That has actual meaning). You learn to know and trust your inner sense as truth, even when "evidence" isn't there. And this is not whatsoever wishful thinking. It's being present and aware of the world.

I don't desire to be 'wowed'. I desire to believe true things about the world.
And you will, when you learn to know and trust and being in yourself in the world (that's not done looking for answers outside yourself). Otherwise you're relying on yours ability to reason to tell you all things, which it in fact, cannot.

The rest of this is quite incredible. What sort of gross morphological changes in brain structure do you posit happened so that we evolved 'mentally' to the fact obsessed, reason obsessed state that we are in?
Does a child's mind evolve (another word for develop)? Of course it does. To say it doesn't would be to say your thinking processes, the structures of your mental landscape (this is different than brain structures), is no different than that of a five year old. The ancient man would have a mind that thought of and perceived the world about at the level of a toddler, even though he had a full-sized body. Look at a chimp. They're about at the level mentally.

But aside from the difference between mental landscapes or structures of consciousness and brain matter, which are distinct yet inter-related domains, you are familiar with neuroplasticity? The brain is able to remap itself, and we are able to affect that remapping. Mediators, of which I am one, actually are remapping the brains. Brain scans of experienced mediators show markedly different features than non-mediators. So what this means, is that our brains are actually different through how we use it. The mapping of the mind of the caveman is not mapped the same as the modern scientist, for instance.

This of course is that interaction between the physical world and the mental world. The mind shapes the brain, as well as the brain affects the mind. It's an interplay.


And since that is clearly an objective claim, what evidence do you have for that one?
There are many researchers in different areas that have mapped these various structures out, but for structures of conscious start here: AN OVERVIEW OF THE WORK OF JEAN GEBSER


An ancestor of mine from 1000 years ago is going to have the same brain structure as I do. The thing is, he had more false beliefs about how the world worked than I do. I suspect that people 1000 yrs from now will likely have less false beliefs about the world than I do also.
So, do you believe a five year old "false beliefs" because his mind is only capable of processing information appropriate to his stage of development? Are you sure you aren't presuming your beliefs are true and the only one way to look at things legitimately? Most every stage of development sees its perception of truth and reality as true and the previous stage as false. So what about stages beyond you? Aren't you believing lies then to him?

And yes, 1000 years ago the had a worldview markedly different than yours. But let's go back 5000 years, or 10,000 years ago, or 50,000 years ago. Do you honestly believe they lived believing lies? Or do you believe the way their minds worked, within their brain, was the same as our minds working within the same basic brain? I don't. They had radically different modes of conscious, far earlier in our conscious development than we do, just like the five year old does.

It's either the case that the world was covered by a flood several thousand years ago or not. It was the case that God created the world in 6 distinct stages through personal intervention or not. It is the case that Jesus, in his original body, resurrected from the dead or not. These are not different-but-equal ways to view the world. They cannot both be right.
They are not the same. And yes, they can be appropriate ways to look at the world for that stage of development. It's not right for YOUR stage of development with its appropriate criteria of legitimacy. No argument. But if everyone before you or modern man was in error, then how the hell did we succeed in surviving? (And considering we're about to destroy our own species through our advances without restraint, exactly how "right" are we? ;) )

Is a five year old wrong? Is being five wrong? That's what you'd have to claim. It's simple. They are appropriately right for being five. Being five for you as an adult is not appropriate.
 
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brokensymmetry

ground state
Do you conjure up the deep sense of connection to the universe you feel when you look into the night sky, or sitting silently along a lake at sunset? Those are places people commonly experience the ineffable, as Einstein said, "He to whom the emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand wrapped in awe, is as good as dead —his eyes are closed." You don't "conjure" this up. It erupts from within you, unless you are "as good as dead".


Well, if you experience it, it certainly is part of the experience of being alive and part of this world. It's not a fiction.


Who is talking about concepts? There's lots of concepts of God. I'm not talking about theological definitions. I love this quote from a Hindu mystic who says this well, "Theologians may quarrel, but mystics the world over speak the same language". It doesn't matter if we paint the picture in red or blue or green or yellow. It the strokes of the brush, the expression of that self-same shared Heart that speaks. And that is the experience of the ineffable itself.


I don't think any mystic would claim to define the ultimate nature of the universe - certainly not in regard to science and physics as Einstein himself went beyond physics to speak of this. No one can define the Ultimate, as that would make it less that that which your understanding can grasp.

But the real point I wish to draw out here is that you expressed you don't trust your subjective experiences. I think just the opposite should be your focus, not looking outside yourself for answers and so-called "objective truth" (which is itself ultimately a myth), but to learn to know and trust your subjective self - anew, or for the first time if necessary To know yourself, to trust yourself, is to know God. (That has actual meaning). You learn to know and trust your inner sense as truth, even when "evidence" isn't there. And this is not whatsoever wishful thinking. It's being present and aware of the world.


And you will, when you learn to know and trust and being in yourself in the world (that's not done looking for answers outside yourself). Otherwise you're relying on yours ability to reason to tell you all things, which it in fact, cannot.


Does a child's mind evolve (another word for develop)? Of course it does. To say it doesn't would be to say your thinking processes, the structures of your mental landscape (this is different than brain structures), is no different than that of a five year old. The ancient man would have a mind that thought of and perceived the world about at the level of a toddler, even though he had a full-sized body. Look at a chimp. They're about at the level mentally.

But aside from the difference between mental landscapes or structures of consciousness and brain matter, which are distinct yet inter-related domains, you are familiar with neuroplasticity? The brain is able to remap itself, and we are able to affect that remapping. Mediators, of which I am one, actually are remapping the brains. Brain scans of experienced mediators show markedly different features than non-mediators. So what this means, is that our brains are actually different through how we use it. The mapping of the mind of the caveman is not mapped the same as the modern scientist, for instance.

This of course is that interaction between the physical world and the mental world. The mind shapes the brain, as well as the brain affects the mind. It's an interplay.



There are many researchers in different areas that have mapped these various structures out, but for structures of conscious start here: AN OVERVIEW OF THE WORK OF JEAN GEBSER



So, do you believe a five year old "false beliefs" because his mind is only capable of processing information appropriate to his stage of development? Are you sure you aren't presuming your beliefs are true and the only one way to look at things legitimately? Most every stage of development sees its perception of truth and reality as true and the previous stage as false. So what about stages beyond you? Aren't you believing lies then to him?

And yes, 1000 years ago the had a worldview markedly different than yours. But let's go back 5000 years, or 10,000 years ago, or 50,000 years ago. Do you honestly believe they lived believing lies? Or do you believe the way their minds worked, within their brain, was the same as our minds working within the same basic brain? I don't. They had radically different modes of conscious, far earlier in our conscious development than we do, just like the five year old does.


They are not the same. And yes, they can be appropriate ways to look at the world for that stage of development. It's not right for YOUR stage of development with its appropriate criteria of legitimacy. No argument. But if everyone before you or modern man was in error, then how the hell did we succeed in surviving? (And considering we're about to destroy our own species through our advances without restraint, exactly how "right" are we? ;) )

Is a five year old wrong? Is being five wrong? That's what you'd have to claim. It's simple. They are appropriately right for being five. Being five for you as an adult is not appropriate.

Mystics likely 'speak the same language' because they have the same brains which through practices like starvation (fasting) and staying up for days tends to produce similar experiences. You could of course short circuit all of that and attempt to induce similar experiences through ingesting drugs. We learn more about how our brains work than learn anything interesting about the nature of the world that way.

I don't care how plastic our brains are (well I DO, it's just not relevant here!) because unless you go around promoting Lamarkianism it's irrelevant to your claim about mental evolution. The brains of children do *not* evolve. Biological evolution involves the changing of genetic information in populations of individuals, that clearly cannot apply to the development of a child as he or she grows.

The five year old is wrong insofar as he is factually mistaken and we know that. That's why we educate him. My cute niece tells me some fantastic and interesting theory about the nature of stars, and no matter how cute she is she's still wrong. I am sure I am wrong about many of my beliefs, and we simply do not have the knowledge, or I do not, to correct them. The claim that God put the world together in 6 discrete steps, as outlined in Genesis, is just *wrong*. It's a claim about the world that isn't true. Nature is what it is. It doesn't alter itself for our convenience, for our desires, or our preferences, or for our cognitive limitations.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Mystics likely 'speak the same language' because they have the same brains which through practices like starvation (fasting) and staying up for days tends to produce similar experiences.
I do not practice any of these things. I have the same experiences through meditation and other natural states. But I can tell from your response you have no point of reference personally as to what these states of conscious expose, or the effect they have on the practitioner. These "it's all just the brain", so therefore it's not real sort of responses are highly ignorant about these things.

You could of course short circuit all of that and attempt to induce similar experiences through ingesting drugs. We learn more about how our brains work than learn anything interesting about the nature of the world that way.
How do you learn about yourself? Through science? How do you learn about your others? Describe in your words what the "nature of the world" means to you? You means geology, cosmology, etc? That's not the nature of the world. And besides, please tell me any science that speaks about the "nature" of a thing? Is that even a scientific term?

I don't care how plastic our brains are (well I DO, it's just not relevant here!) because unless you go around promoting Lamarkianism it's irrelevant to your claim about mental evolution. The brains of children do *not* evolve. Biological evolution involves the changing of genetic information in populations of individuals, that clearly cannot apply to the development of a child as he or she grows.
You missed my words. Evolution is another word for "development". The theory of evolution is nothing more than the theory of "development" of the species. Evolution is not limited to biology! (The ToE, or course is). All things develop or change over time: Atoms to molecules, to cells, to bodies, to brains, to minds, etc. So when a child develops, he is evolving.

You think evolution is a past event, do you? ;)

The five year old is wrong insofar as he is factually mistaken and we know that. That's why we educate him.
Well then, since the five year old is completely unable to think in abstractions the way a fifteen year old can, they it must be the fault of education! Right?

You are familiar with Piaget? Stages of Development

Better get busy correcting the errors of these toddler minds thinking processes. ;)

My cute niece tells me some fantastic and interesting theory about the nature of stars, and no matter how cute she is she's still wrong.
And she thinks your wrong because you don't see what she does. Aren't you saying the same thing she is because you can't any longer see through her eyes?

I am sure I am wrong about many of my beliefs, and we simply do not have the knowledge, or I do not, to correct them. The claim that God put the world together in 6 discrete steps, as outlined in Genesis, is just *wrong*. It's a claim about the world that isn't true. Nature is what it is. It doesn't alter itself for our convenience, for our desires, or our preferences, or for our cognitive limitations.
To claim that as a modern scientific fact is wrong. To claim it as a mythological truth, is not wrong. You're arguing for science to be the ONLY correct way of looking at the world. And that, is wrong.
 

brokensymmetry

ground state
I do not practice any of these things. I have the same experiences through meditation and other natural states. But I can tell from your response you have no point of reference personally as to what these states of conscious expose, or the effect they have on the practitioner. These "it's all just the brain", so therefore it's not real sort of responses are highly ignorant about these things.


How do you learn about yourself? Through science? How do you learn about your others? Describe in your words what the "nature of the world" means to you? You means geology, cosmology, etc? That's not the nature of the world. And besides, please tell me any science that speaks about the "nature" of a thing? Is that even a scientific term?


You missed my words. Evolution is another word for "development". The theory of evolution is nothing more than the theory of "development" of the species. Evolution is not limited to biology! (The ToE, or course is). All things develop or change over time: Atoms to molecules, to cells, to bodies, to brains, to minds, etc. So when a child develops, he is evolving.

You think evolution is a past event, do you? ;)


Well then, since the five year old is completely unable to think in abstractions the way a fifteen year old can, they it must be the fault of education! Right?

You are familiar with Piaget? Stages of Development

Better get busy correcting the errors of these toddler minds thinking processes. ;)


And she thinks your wrong because you don't see what she does. Aren't you saying the same thing she is because you can't any longer see through her eyes?


To claim that as a modern scientific fact is wrong. To claim it as a mythological truth, is not wrong. You're arguing for science to be the ONLY correct way of looking at the world. And that, is wrong.

I'm not being ignorant. All of our experiences have a one-to-one correlation with physical happenings in the brain. Every experience a mystic has could be created if those same parts of the brain involved in their mystical experiences were provoked some other way physically. So what? That in itself doesn't mean they are wrong, by the way. It's entirely possible that God, or ultimate reality or whatever communicates to humans, and the only way to communicate with us is to affect our brain states at some point. But, that also doesn't mean they are right or onto something deep just because they have very consuming experiences. The fact is these have potential naturalistic explanations that are perfectly feasible. So, how does a mystic tell if she is having a mystical experience because she is communing with the infinite, or if she has just practiced a way of shutting off certain parts of the brain (such as those responsible for creating a sense of locality in the body) or hyper provoking others? I would certainly have that question if I were her.

By nature of the world here I mean everything that exists, namely the objective facts about everything that exists.

Evolution is limited to biology. If you want to use the word in a non technical way, okay, but then we aren't communicating. The thing that makes evolution powerful is because it is something testable and for which we have models for how it works. Your mind doesn't evolve in the sense that lifeforms on the planet do over time through shifts in the populations of genetic information. Evolution still happens but it acts on populations. What you are promoting is a confusion based on semantic misunderstanding.

The five year old isn't right. There was a time I believed in Santa (I'm not trying to bring up a tired old trope comparing God to Santa or something, it's just the most convenient example for this discussion). It brought a lot of excitement and interest into my young world. Despite all that, I was *wrong*, I was factually errant. Santa can't exist as a real person who flies around and visits all the children (apparently even the Jewish ones!~) on Christmas Eve, and also not exist. I am either right about it now, or wrong about it now. These are not equally valid ways of viewing the world.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
*

I have a daily reminder program on my computer, which also includes a daily quote.

This is this morning's quote.


"Pray, v. - To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessed unworthy." Ambrose Bierce


*
 

raw_thought

Well-Known Member
Here is a question that has been on my mind. If you are a part of a religion that stems from the Bible (hebrew Bible) then where are the fantastic miraculous happenings? Why aren't they occurring now? Think of the people God turned into salt, the floodings, the plagues, the talking of animals, the destroying of cities. Why doesn't this stuff occur now? Why... actually... are there no miracles that can really be confirmed as such occurring?
[youtube]KiypaURysz4[/youtube]
Peter Mayer "Holy Now" (with lyrics in captions) - YouTube
The fact that there is something rather than nothing is the ultimate miracle. It has no explanation. It is not that we are too stupid to understand why there is something and not nothing, its that there is no explanation!!!!!!
"We were talking of dreams, presentiments, clairvoyance , and what the English call second sight...The emperor ended up by saying," All this might be ,but it is not. Man loves the marvelous . It has for him an irresistible attraction: he is always ready to leave the marvels that surround him to run after invented ones. He is eager to be deceived . The truth is that everything around us is a miracle. There is no such thing as a prodigy in the proper sense; everything in nature is prodigious. The wood in my fireplace that gives me warmth is a prodigy; this lamp that gives me light is a prodigy; all first causes, my intelligence, my faculties, are prodigies. For all this is and we cannot define it.
The mind of Napoleon; a selection from his written and spoken words
J. Christopher Herold
New York 1955
Columbia University press
 
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Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
The fact that there is something rather than nothing is the ultimate miracle. It has no explanation. It is not that we are too stupid to understand why there is something and not nothing, its that there is no explanation!!!!!!
"We were talking of dreams, presentiments, clairvoyance , and what the English call second sight...The emperor ended up by saying," All this might be ,but it is not. Man loves the marvelous . It has for him an irresistible attraction: he is always ready to leave the marvels that surround him to run after invented ones. He is eager to be deceived . The truth is that everything around us is a miracle. There is no such thing as a prodigy in the proper sense; everything in nature is prodigious. The wood in my fireplace that gives me warmth is a prodigy; this lamp that gives me light is a prodigy; all first causes, my intelligence, my faculties, are prodigies. For all this is and we cannot define it.
The mind of Napoleon; a selection from his written and spoken words
J. Christopher Herold
New York 1955
Columbia University press

Or this -


[youtube]bnDdm4cBu_c[/youtube]
All The Devil's Men - Inkubus Sukkubus - YouTube


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHrFs2tK9P0


Edit I- meant to put the second one up.
 
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jimniki

supremely undecisive
But if you believed in santa with all your conviction, and it made you happy, does it really matter whether he is real. I believe god affects people in the same way.
I say do and believe whatever you feel or think is the right thing.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'm not being ignorant. All of our experiences have a one-to-one correlation with physical happenings in the brain. Every experience a mystic has could be created if those same parts of the brain involved in their mystical experiences were provoked some other way physically. So what? That in itself doesn't mean they are wrong, by the way. It's entirely possible that God, or ultimate reality or whatever communicates to humans, and the only way to communicate with us is to affect our brain states at some point.
Our experiences are not the Ultimate Truth. They are tied to our physical form, and as you point out, they are bound to our bodies and brains. But, as a human, they are described, legitimately by those who experience them, myself included, to be the highest possible states of being for being human. It can be rightly described as the highest realization of the Ultimate as a human. That it happens in the brain doesn't mean anything negative. All experience happens in the brain. It's the nature of the experience that is point of focus.

But, that also doesn't mean they are right or onto something deep just because they have very consuming experiences.
It does based on the effect it has on those who have them. It's undeniably heads and shoulders beyond average experience. It's not just "getting high", or something. Its utterly transforming, for the positive. Indeed it is deep. Just ask those who experience these. Ask me.

The fact is these have potential naturalistic explanations that are perfectly feasible. So, how does a mystic tell if she is having a mystical experience because she is communing with the infinite, or if she has just practiced a way of shutting off certain parts of the brain (such as those responsible for creating a sense of locality in the body) or hyper provoking others? I would certainly have that question if I were her.
The experience is described as communion with the divine, because it so radically transcendent to typical phenomenal experience. We use the term God and the divine, etc because those words as a symbol convey the utterly transcendent nature of these things. Obviously, we're experiencing it with our brains. I'm human.

Does the experience prove a theology? Hell no. But, a theology, or another, can be used to attempt to describe it. But it is itself beyond any theology, any definitions. That is what the experience, the apprehension reveals. All the rest is just fumbling and bumbling about looking for ways to put words to it, which will never suffice.

By nature of the world here I mean everything that exists, namely the objective facts about everything that exists.
What is the nature of everything that exists? Share your thoughts with me.

Evolution is limited to biology. If you want to use the word in a non technical way, okay, but then we aren't communicating.
You are quite mistaken in this. Evolution is not limited to biology. Rather the very technical and accurate use of evolution, as a process of change, is adopted by biology to describe a theory OF evolution to describe change in biological forms. It's using the fact of evolution, a known scientific process, to explain changes in species.

So, grabbing from the online dictionary, let's see where biology falls. I believe it's around definition 3. To quote:

ev·o·lu·tion [ev-uh-loo-shuhn or, esp. British, ee-vuh-] Show IPA
noun

1. any process of formation or growth; development: the evolution of a language; the evolution of the airplane.

2. a product of such development; something evolved: The exploration of space is the evolution of decades of research.

3. Biology . change in the gene pool of a population from generation to generation by such processes as mutation, natural selection, and genetic drift.

4. a process of gradual, peaceful, progressive change or development, as in social or economic structure or institutions.

5. a motion incomplete in itself, but combining with coordinated motions to produce a single action, as in a machine.

Any further doubts to what I say here?

BTW, you may find this of interest to you about evolution itself. You should find it quite useful as a way to deal with creationists. It's a perfect simplified explanation of how evolution brings about order out of disorder, in everything, biology included.

Order from Disorder. Creation in Everyday Life.

The thing that makes evolution powerful is because it is something testable and for which we have models for how it works. Your mind doesn't evolve in the sense that lifeforms on the planet do over time through shifts in the populations of genetic information. Evolution still happens but it acts on populations. What you are promoting is a confusion based on semantic misunderstanding.
You are again, incorrect. Evolution happens with the mind, as well as societies, as well as cultures, as well as language, as well as biology, as well as...... you name it.

The five year old isn't right. There was a time I believed in Santa (I'm not trying to bring up a tired old trope comparing God to Santa or something, it's just the most convenient example for this discussion). It brought a lot of excitement and interest into my young world. Despite all that, I was *wrong*, I was factually errant. Santa can't exist as a real person who flies around and visits all the children (apparently even the Jewish ones!~) on Christmas Eve, and also not exist. I am either right about it now, or wrong about it now. These are not equally valid ways of viewing the world.
Ah, but what you experienced through that belief was in fact, real. Oh, there's such a kernel truth there that becomes so obvious when we actually dare to look beyond the analytical realities we create to embed our being within.
 

brokensymmetry

ground state
Our experiences are not the Ultimate Truth. They are tied to our physical form, and as you point out, they are bound to our bodies and brains. But, as a human, they are described, legitimately by those who experience them, myself included, to be the highest possible states of being for being human. It can be rightly described as the highest realization of the Ultimate as a human. That it happens in the brain doesn't mean anything negative. All experience happens in the brain. It's the nature of the experience that is point of focus.


It does based on the effect it has on those who have them. It's undeniably heads and shoulders beyond average experience. It's not just "getting high", or something. Its utterly transforming, for the positive. Indeed it is deep. Just ask those who experience these. Ask me.


The experience is described as communion with the divine, because it so radically transcendent to typical phenomenal experience. We use the term God and the divine, etc because those words as a symbol convey the utterly transcendent nature of these things. Obviously, we're experiencing it with our brains. I'm human.

Does the experience prove a theology? Hell no. But, a theology, or another, can be used to attempt to describe it. But it is itself beyond any theology, any definitions. That is what the experience, the apprehension reveals. All the rest is just fumbling and bumbling about looking for ways to put words to it, which will never suffice.


What is the nature of everything that exists? Share your thoughts with me.


You are quite mistaken in this. Evolution is not limited to biology. Rather the very technical and accurate use of evolution, as a process of change, is adopted by biology to describe a theory OF evolution to describe change in biological forms. It's using the fact of evolution, a known scientific process, to explain changes in species.

So, grabbing from the online dictionary, let's see where biology falls. I believe it's around definition 3. To quote:

ev·o·lu·tion [ev-uh-loo-shuhn or, esp. British, ee-vuh-] Show IPA
noun

1. any process of formation or growth; development: the evolution of a language; the evolution of the airplane.

2. a product of such development; something evolved: The exploration of space is the evolution of decades of research.

3. Biology . change in the gene pool of a population from generation to generation by such processes as mutation, natural selection, and genetic drift.

4. a process of gradual, peaceful, progressive change or development, as in social or economic structure or institutions.

5. a motion incomplete in itself, but combining with coordinated motions to produce a single action, as in a machine.

Any further doubts to what I say here?

BTW, you may find this of interest to you about evolution itself. You should find it quite useful as a way to deal with creationists. It's a perfect simplified explanation of how evolution brings about order out of disorder, in everything, biology included.

Order from Disorder. Creation in Everyday Life.


You are again, incorrect. Evolution happens with the mind, as well as societies, as well as cultures, as well as language, as well as biology, as well as...... you name it.


Ah, but what you experienced through that belief was in fact, real. Oh, there's such a kernel truth there that becomes so obvious when we actually dare to look beyond the analytical realities we create to embed our being within.

Perhaps you haven't talked to certain people who have dropped acid. Some of these people report experiences that they talk about in spiritual terms and say it changed their view of the world forever. I don't think the comparison is superficial. That you find it very important to your life doesn't nullify the point that it still an experience that is happening in your brain and particular things are happening there. Honestly, I just don't find it that interesting without the framework of neurology or cognitive sciences. Insofar as I can see it's an important part of your life, I'd like to emphasize that I am not intending to insult you, this is merely reflective of my interests in learning.

As far as evolution goes, i am completely uninterested in a dictionary definition. Are we talking about biological evolution or not? If you want to talk about 'progress' or 'development' or something like that, then I'd prefer we talk about things in those terms. What happens in biological evolution is the change in populations of genetic information in groups over time. It doesn't have a direction, it doesn't imply progress, as your comparison to 5 year olds growing older and developing their brains does.

As far as my young belief in Santa, I merely held a false belief about the world.
 

brokensymmetry

ground state
But if you believed in santa with all your conviction, and it made you happy, does it really matter whether he is real. I believe god affects people in the same way.
I say do and believe whatever you feel or think is the right thing.

It didn't matter then, insofar as it didn't interfere with my higher goals and whatnot at that stage of my life. By the time it may have I had already figured out it wasn't true. It didn't interfere with my continuing joy of the holiday.
 

ZooGirl02

Well-Known Member
I am a Roman Catholic and I believe that miracles happen all of the time.

Just recently Pope John Paul II was made Saint John Paul II. In order for this to happen, two miracles must have happened and been verified. This is exactly what happened. You can read about those at Wikipedia:

Posthumous Recognition of Pope John Paul II

The same thing happens with most other saints. The one exception I know of is Saint John XXIII who was canonized with just one miracle because Pope Francis made an exception since he was the originator of the 2nd Vatican Council.

Some other miracles that have happened are the Miracle of the Sun during the Apparitions at Fatima. You can about that here:

Miracle of the Sun

And here is a link for healing miracles that have occurred at the Shrine of Lourdes, France:

Miracles of Lourdes

And last but not least, here is a Eucharistic Miracle known as the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano:

Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano

Miracle of Lanciano
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Perhaps you haven't talked to certain people who have dropped acid. Some of these people report experiences that they talk about in spiritual terms and say it changed their view of the world forever. I don't think the comparison is superficial.
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of these things. Yes, I'm quite aware of the comparisons of taking these sorts of drugs and the various levels of effects they have in these various stages of altered states of consciousness. Why drugs like LSD, or at a far more potent level ayahuasca or DMT, is that the reason it produces a similar profound change of worldview, as to say a natural state through meditation (which goes far beyond and deeper than these drugs), is because what they are doing is distracting the mind from its normal illusory states of dualistic conceptualizations. It temporarily frees us from that bondage, and by subtraction of all that debris, allows a natural state on deep primal levels of consciousness to be experienced directly, rather than just as silent background at the subconscious level. It's the experience of touching that on a conscious waking level, which changes lives.

All the visual stuff that goes with it is manifestations of that subconscious mind is just making use the symbolic frameworks of the linguist centers of the brain in the left hippocampus. It's not that what you see is "real" in the sense of you encountered an actual angel, but rather the mind put a "face" on the experience that has its origins, and rightly so, in cultural symbolic referents. These have two natures to them, as I see them. Both manifestations of primal fears, and archetypal manifestations of the transcendent nature of our very conscious being. It is through the focus on, or interaction with, or communion with to put words to it, with these archetypal forms, that what arises from within us into a direct, immediate conscious awareness that is life-transforming. The reason is because we in effect are 'setting that free' in us, and getting to know it, become familiar with it, and ultimately through disciplined practice are able to integrate it into our lived lives. We are literally driving our own evolution (think in terms of biocultural feedback loops, if you are familiar with them).

So I know quite a lot about these, and could go on at length about comparisons between these drugs and meditation or other state peak experiences. They are related, yes. But not identical. If that's the suggestion, that's wrong.

That you find it very important to your life doesn't nullify the point that it still an experience that is happening in your brain and particular things are happening there.
What is it you don't understand about everything I've been saying? Is it that you imagine I think a vision of seeing the Christ or Krishna of the Virgin Mary, or Kali, or the Buddha, or a Bodhisattva, are proofs of an actual realm where literal beings like these live, like a Mount Olympus or something? Everything we experience is in the brain. I said this at length in my last post. Did you merely skim over it without reading it? I'm trying to understand why you'd bring this up again?

Honestly, I just don't find it that interesting without the framework of neurology or cognitive sciences.
Neither do I! And I've been bring this up. We can go much deeper into it if you wish. It supports what I've been saying. (I do realize it's unlikely you'd encountered someone saying what I am so you're struggling to try to get a handle on where this is coming from in order to respond properly).

Insofar as I can see it's an important part of your life, I'd like to emphasize that I am not intending to insult you, this is merely reflective of my interests in learning.
Excellent. And I'm happy to share my insights into this. I've done a considerable amount of thought, practice, and study in these areas. They're far from your typical religious apologetic trying to justify some belief system. Rather they are open-ended explorations of what both the sciences and contemplative paths and traditions expose, and how they can legitimately be brought together. So in discussion with me, try to set aside any assumptions of what you think I believe. Chances are extremely high those assumptions will be wrong.

As far as evolution goes, i am completely uninterested in a dictionary definition. Are we talking about biological evolution or not?
Why do you insist in denying all these other vital areas of development? They are 100% relevant to the discussion. Biological evolution is part of it, and that is relevant as well, but it is not all there is to this! Not by a long shot. I'm assuming since you wish to limit it to this, you think everything can be understood in nothing other than purely reductionist terms? I would completely disagree with that "religious" assumption (which is what it is, as there is no science to prove that assumption - it's just simply made on philosophical grounds or grounds of personal preference).

If we are not allowed to look at areas such as psychology, sociological, cultural studies, anthropology, ethnology, myth studies, systems theory, chaos theory, etc, then to be blunt, nothing can be understood very well at all, and we can't have any sort of meaningful discussion about anything. For instance, using neuroscience tell me the meaning of Hamlet? Using an EEG, tell me about who I am as a person and my likes and dislikes, hopes and aspirations, etc.

The Theory of Evolution is not a theory of everything. It takes more the the Theory of Evolution to explain how we go from dirt to Shakespeare. I'm dealing with the Theory of Everything, and Evolution is absolutely integral to all of it! But if you want the world to be nothing but biology, then I wish you well trying to explain much of anything substantial beyond how the machine operates.

If you want to talk about 'progress' or 'development' or something like that, then I'd prefer we talk about things in those terms. What happens in biological evolution is the change in populations of genetic information in groups over time. It doesn't have a direction, it doesn't imply progress, as your comparison to 5 year olds growing older and developing their brains does.
Once ground is laid, things repeat the pattern. It's a shortcut, rather than constantly have to remap and "relearn" what evolution already created. That is why what you see in childhood development is a microcosmic snapshot of what evolution created on a macrocosmic scale for us as a species. You're seeing in 15 years in a child, what took evolution tens of thousands of years to evolve. It's the same identical pattern without exception (aside from dysfunctions) happening across the species regardless of culture again and again and again. It's a pattern that is handed down. It's a pattern that emerged through evolution. If not, please explain how it is that every child in the world follows these same stages? Or if it didn't evolve as I said, explain where the pattern came from then. Were we "created" with it fully in place, like the Creationist models suggest?

As far as my young belief in Santa, I merely held a false belief about the world.
That's too bad that's all that was to you. You never experienced happiness and joy through that figure? You don't recall what came out of you and you experienced when they spoke of Santa coming? Were you always such a cynic? ;)
 
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viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
That's too bad that's all that was to you. You never experienced happiness and joy through that figure? You don't recall what came out of you and you experienced when they spoke of Santa coming? Were you always such a cynic? ;)

I also believed Santa, among other things. And yes, my epistemic state was defective as well, even though it was making me happy.

The two things: being true/making happy, are either not correlated or have an inverse correlation.

Usually, things that make us happy, if not supported by evidence, have the bad habit of being untrue.

The question is: what do you prefer, happiness enabling lies, or the naked truth?

Ciao

- viole
 
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