Where are the Dead?

[jes-us]

When the little girl died, Jesus did not say, her body is sleeping. He said she - the person - herself - is sleeping.
He didn't say I am going to wake Lazarus' body, but Lazarus himself - the person - him.

So, while it is true that persons believe that the person does not die, as the Devil purported, the teachings of Jesus Christ and God's word disagree.

I think if persons had their way - which God did not allow, we would be reading texts like this...
(Acts 7:60) . . .Then, kneeling down, [Stephen] cried out with a strong voice: “Jehovah, do not charge this sin against them.” And after saying this, his body died.

Instead of...
(Acts 7:60) . . .Then, kneeling down, [Stephen] cried out with a strong voice: “Jehovah, do not charge this sin against them.” And after saying this, he fell asleep in death.

The soul, which is the person, dies. Ezekiel 18:4
Greek psuché; Hebrew nephesh: a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion

However, I would agree God's memory can be compared figuratively to storing data on a disk.
So, the person - the self, which includes all the characteristics, memories, emotions, etc., is in God's memory, as I said.

Oh my , think I might be Jesus for real .

 

[nPeace]

Oh my , think I might be Jesus for real .

(Luke 20:16) . . .“Never may that happen!. . .

 

[jes-us]

(Luke 20:16) . . .“Never may that happen!. . .

''
When the little girl died, Jesus did not say, her body is sleeping. He said she - the person - herself - is sleeping.
He didn't say I am going to wake Lazarus' body, but Lazarus himself - the person - him.''

I didn't know this statement and have produced a thread explaining similar .

 

[nPeace]

''
When the little girl died, Jesus did not say, her body is sleeping. He said she - the person - herself - is sleeping.
He didn't say I am going to wake Lazarus' body, but Lazarus himself - the person - him.''

I didn't know this statement and have produced a thread explaining similar .

I don't think you are far from the truth.
I like the understanding of retrieving data which contains person's memories, emotional makeup, personalities, etc., from a hard drive.

However, why one would think that data is at the edge of the universe, is somewhat puzzling to me.
Why would God's infinite memory be found at the edge of the universe?

God says he keeps record. We know he doesn't write in a literal book.
(Malachi 3:16) . . .a book of remembrance was written before him for those fearing Jehovah and for those meditating on his name.

What's the title of your thread, or can you give me a link?

 

[jes-us]

I don't think you are far from the truth.
I like the understanding of retrieving data which contains person's memories, emotional makeup, personalities, etc., from a hard drive.

However, why one would think that data is at the edge of the universe, is somewhat puzzling to me.
Why would God's infinite memory be found at the edge of the universe?

God says he keeps record. We know he doesn't write in a literal book.
(Malachi 3:16) . . .a book of remembrance was written before him for those fearing Jehovah and for those meditating on his name.

What's the title of your thread, or can you give me a link?

Humans are not alive and don't feel anything .

We can speak there if you wish to talk about realism and retrieving human brain waves .

God isn't at the edge of the Universe that is just the place human brain waves rest after the body has ceased to function .

 

[nPeace]

Humans are not alive and don't feel anything .

We can speak there if you wish to talk about realism and retrieving human brain waves .

God isn't at the edge of the Universe that is just the place human brain waves rest after the body has ceased to function .

Thanks.
I looked at post #1, and it's too philosophical for me.
There is no data. No references. Just someone stating beliefs.
I like a discussion where there are actually references to refute or accept.

A discussion where mere claims are made, usually is an never ending argument based on he says, she says, I say, and these never reach a valid conclusion.
I don't get into those. So maybe next time, when we can consider references.

 

[blü 2]

This is due to narrowmindeness, remember.

No, it's due to actually considering the notion of eternal life, outliving the universe, outliving everything, with no hope of escape.

This is the thinking of animals, and because some think there are nothing more than animals.

We are mammals, and I've given a rough outline of our evolution >here<. (I put it together a decade or more ago, and I haven't brought it up to date, but it should still be substantially accurate.)

So at what point, and how, did humans evolve a soul? And why? What exactly is a soul? And why don't all species have one?

Whatever happened to reality blu. You're always talking about reality versus what's in our head.

Yup.

Now you are describing what's in many heads.

Only one version of it. I dare say there are still more than a thousand distinct kinds of supernatural belief in the world, and each of them with its own set of variations. And religion in the Western world is quietly changing, becoming more about personal feelings and more often than in the past dissolving into unbelief.

Life is indeed purposeless without a divine creator, but that's in the skeptic's head. It's not reality.

On the contrary, life is purposeful. It's about living long enough to reproduce. We're born with that map built into our brains and bodies. If a Creator did that then [he] did it by devjsjng a system in which evolution can occur (though Occam says you don't need the Creator hypothesis).

And thus the changes in the status of women are changing Western society; and the contraceptive pill is one of the most profound drivers of change to human life that's ever been. It may just in time save the earth from being overrun by humans ─ but we'll see in due course if that's correct.

 

[nPeace]

No, it's due to actually considering the notion of eternal life, outliving the universe, outliving everything, with no hope of escape.


We are mammals, and I've given a rough outline of our evolution >here<. (I put it together a decade or more ago, and I haven't brought it up to date, but it should still be substantially accurate.)

So at what point, and how, did humans evolve a soul? And why? What exactly is a soul? And why don't all species have one?

Yup.

Only one version of it. I dare say there are still more than a thousand distinct kinds of supernatural belief in the world, and each of them with its own set of variations. And religion in the Western world is quietly changing, becoming more about personal feelings and more often than in the past dissolving into unbelief.


On the contrary, life is purposeful. It's about living long enough to reproduce. We're born with that map built into our brains and bodies. If a Creator did that then [he] did it by devjsjng a system in which evolution can occur (though Occam says you don't need the Creator hypothesis).

And thus the changes in the status of women are changing Western society; and the contraceptive pill is one of the most profound drivers of change to human life that's ever been. It may just in time save the earth from being overrun by humans ─ but we'll see in due course if that's correct.

I'll wait for that balloon to burst. It always does. Only a matter of time.
We can almost start the countdown. 10... 9... 8... 7...

Sorry to the crash victims' families for the tragedy.

 

[blü 2]

I'll wait for that balloon to burst. It always does. Only a matter of time.
We can almost start the countdown. 10... 9... 8... 7...

Sorry to the crash victims' families for the tragedy.

So you don't know when humans acquired souls?

Why didn't you just say so and save yourself all that trouble?

 

[nPeace]

So you don't know when humans acquired souls?

Why didn't you just say so and save yourself all that trouble?

Sorry. I forgot to answer that.
I understand soul to be the person, or life of the person.

I do not believe in this idea that there is an undying being inside the body. That idea is said to have existed in ancient heathenism.
The doctrine of the immortality of the soul is of heathen origin1. It was held by the Pagan priests of Chaldea, Babylonia, and Egypt, centuries before the Christian era1. The concept of the soul's supposed immortality was first taught in ancient Egypt and Babylon2. The concept of an immaterial and immortal soul, distinct from the body, did not appear in Judaism before the Babylonian exile, but developed as a result of interaction with Persian and Hellenistic philosophies3. The idea of the soul as a mental entity, with intellectual and moral qualities, derives in Western thought from Plato and entered into Judaism during approximately the last century before the Common Era and thence into Christianity4.

Do you believe in the idea that humans acquired a soul at some point?
My understanding is, once a human is living, they are a soul (a person, or being), or have soul (life, emotions, etc.).

 

[blü 2]

Sorry. I forgot to answer that.
I understand soul to be the person, or life of the person.

I do not believe in this idea that there is an undying being inside the body. That idea is said to have existed in ancient heathenism.
The doctrine of the immortality of the soul is of heathen origin1. It was held by the Pagan priests of Chaldea, Babylonia, and Egypt, centuries before the Christian era1. The concept of the soul's supposed immortality was first taught in ancient Egypt and Babylon2. The concept of an immaterial and immortal soul, distinct from the body, did not appear in Judaism before the Babylonian exile, but developed as a result of interaction with Persian and Hellenistic philosophies3. The idea of the soul as a mental entity, with intellectual and moral qualities, derives in Western thought from Plato and entered into Judaism during approximately the last century before the Common Era and thence into Christianity4.

Do you believe in the idea that humans acquired a soul at some point?
My understanding is, once a human is living, they are a soul (a person, or being), or have soul (life, emotions, etc.).

First, I have nothing against heathens as such, Much of the best of our societies can be traced back to the best of ancient Greek society, for instance. Greek was already the Empire's language of administration in Judea and Galilee, and spoken and written by the educated and those in commerce. And later, consider the role of Constantine in the spread of Christianity.

You'll recall "neo-Platonism" for instance, as an early influence on Christian doctrine. And the Greeks indeed had the idea that humans when they die go to judgment and from judgment to heaven, hell or go-round-again (though the last one has never been mainstream with Christians). Officially, Paul was selling the idea of resurrection in a "spiritual body" that "put on incorruption". Why wait, when according to John if you believed in Jesus, who was one with God, you were already thus one with God?

The Christianity I grew up with, both the Pisco, and through society generally, may have referred at funerals to "the sure and certain hope" of the resurrection ─ a rather funny dodge ─ but in fact no one ever spoke of the deceased in such terms otherwise. Rather, the deceased was already "in heaven", and that was that; or for some people might readily be present in the room or your dream; or greeting you at the end of the tunnel of light in your near-death experience.

As for me, I know that humans (like all complex animals) have personalities that are the result of their genetics in particular and their upbringing, culture, education and experiences, and that all of this ceases to exist when the human / animal dies. And I keep an eye on the progress of brain research as we learn more of the what and get a general idea of the how the brain works, and the brain and body work together. Likewise through history, and through anthropology and sociology as they mature as forms of study, we get rough working ideas about how we as tribal creatures exist as such, and interact with other tribes, and maybe one day solve the world's problems with extra tools to go with economics.

 

[Betho_br]

Are the dead alive somewhere?
Can the dead interact with the living... or dead?
Is there any hope for the dead... can the dead live again?

Some scriptures I found answers these questions...

Spoiler: Scriptures

Genesis 3:19) In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

(Psalm 104:29) When you hide your face, they are disturbed. If you take away their spirit, they die and return to the dust.
(Psalm 146:3, 4) 3 Do not put your trust in princes Nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation. 4 His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish.
(Ecclesiastes 3:20) All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust.

(Ecclesiastes 9:4-10) 4 There is hope for whoever is among the living, because a live dog is better off than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun. ... 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going.

(Ecclesiastes 12:7) Then the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it.

(Isaiah 26:19) “Your dead will live. My corpses will rise up. Awake and shout joyfully, You residents in the dust! For your dew is as the dew of the morning, And the earth will let those powerless in death come to life.

(Hosea 13:14) From the power of the Grave I will redeem them; From death I will recover them. Where are your stings, O Death? Where is your destructiveness, O Grave? Compassion will be concealed from my eyes.

(Mark 12:26) But concerning the dead being raised up, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account about the thornbush, that God said to him: ‘I am the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob’?

(John 5:28, 29) 28 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.

(John 11:24, 25) 24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life;

(Acts 24:15) And I have hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.

(1 Corinthians 15:21) For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man.

Basically, those scriptures tell us

• the dead are not alive anywhere... except in God's memory. Luke 20:38
• the dead cannot communicate with either the living, or the dead. They cannot do anything. They are inactive - in the powerful grip of death.
• the dead can... will live again, by means of a resurrection, which God promises, and is both willing and able to carry out.

On examining these scriptures, do you agree this is what we find?

Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. (Jn. 11:14 KJV)

And saying this, he shouted loudly, "Lazarus! Here! Come out!" (Jn. 11:43 Pbro. Guillermo jünemann beckchaefer)

Jesus had the ability to resonate his voice at the frequency of those who had departed. The spirit of Lazarus lingered close to his body—typically, this occurs with most individuals. Many glimpse the true reality of the material world and move on, but others stay tethered to their traumas, bound to this realm.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Jesus had the ability to resonate his voice at the frequency of those who had departed. The spirit of Lazarus lingered close to his body—typically, this occurs with most individuals. Many glimpse the true reality of the material world and move on, but others stay tethered to their traumas, bound to this realm.

Please tell me if I'm mistaken, but I'm assuming that you believe in earthbound human spirits. Is this correct?

 

[Betho_br]

Please tell me if I'm mistaken, but I'm assuming that you believe in earthbound human spirits. Is this correct?

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. (Rev. 20:13 KJV)

 

[Trailblazer]

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. (Rev. 20:13 KJV)

Can you tell me what you think that verse means?
Of course it will mean different things to different people.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Can you tell me what you think that verse means?
Of course it will mean different things to different people.

Exactly. Some Christians hold the view that after they die, they will immediately go to heaven to be with Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:8), while others hold the view that they will sleep in their graves until Jesus raises them from the dead in a later rapture event (1 Thessalonians 4:13–17). In other words, they can't agree on what happens to them and others after death. I elaborated on these scriptures and others in my prior posts in this thread, which are linked below.

Where are the Dead?

I think this sounds like it makes sense.But I have read other passages that confuse me.:confused: I've been thinking about what you stated in your post, and it reinforces my conviction that what the Bible teaches about what happens to people after they die is clearly inaccurate and misleading...

www.religiousforums.com

Where are the Dead?

I think this sounds like it makes sense.But I have read other passages that confuse me.:confused: Frank, I hope that you're not discouraged from examining the legitimacy of the Bible. As far as I'm concerned, if you want to continue to believe in the Bible, that is entirely your decision. But...

www.religiousforums.com

 

[Betho_br]

Can you tell me what you think that verse means?
Of course it will mean different things to different people.

 

[Trailblazer]

I still don't understand what you think that Bible verse means. Do you believe there are earthbound spirits?

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Posting a video clip of the Sixth Sense does not answer @Trailblazer's question.

 

[Betho_br]

Posting a video clip of the Sixth Sense does not answer @Trailblazer's question.

I had no intention of arguing with the video.