Where are the Dead?

[blü 2]

Are the dead alive somewhere?
Can the dead interact with the living... or dead?
Is there any hope for the dead... can the dead live again?

Some scriptures I found answers these questions...

Spoiler: Scriptures

Genesis 3:19) In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

(Psalm 104:29) When you hide your face, they are disturbed. If you take away their spirit, they die and return to the dust.
(Psalm 146:3, 4) 3 Do not put your trust in princes Nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation. 4 His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish.
(Ecclesiastes 3:20) All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust.

(Ecclesiastes 9:4-10) 4 There is hope for whoever is among the living, because a live dog is better off than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun. ... 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going.

(Ecclesiastes 12:7) Then the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it.

(Isaiah 26:19) “Your dead will live. My corpses will rise up. Awake and shout joyfully, You residents in the dust! For your dew is as the dew of the morning, And the earth will let those powerless in death come to life.

(Hosea 13:14) From the power of the Grave I will redeem them; From death I will recover them. Where are your stings, O Death? Where is your destructiveness, O Grave? Compassion will be concealed from my eyes.

(Mark 12:26) But concerning the dead being raised up, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account about the thornbush, that God said to him: ‘I am the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob’?

(John 5:28, 29) 28 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.

(John 11:24, 25) 24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life;

(Acts 24:15) And I have hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.

(1 Corinthians 15:21) For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man.

Basically, those scriptures tell us

• the dead are not alive anywhere... except in God's memory. Luke 20:38
• the dead cannot communicate with either the living, or the dead. They cannot do anything. They are inactive - in the powerful grip of death.
• the dead can... will live again, by means of a resurrection, which God promises, and is both willing and able to carry out.

On examining these scriptures, do you agree this is what we find?

Nothing suggests the situation correctly described in Ecclesiastes has changed.

Ecclesiastes 3:18-20

I said in my heart with regard to the sons of men that God is testing them to show them that they are but beasts.

For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other.

They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts; for all is vanity.

All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again.


§
Ecclesiastes 9:4-6

He who is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost.

Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and they have no more for ever any share in all that is done under the sun.


Ecclesiastes 9:10

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

This is not a christian country and christian beliefs do not rule us, period.

I'd rather not live in a nation that resembles the Republic of Gilead. I've overheard many conservative evangelical Christians over the years exclaim that they would impose their preferred version of Christianity on other Christians and non-believers if they ever came into significant power in the federal government. So I can envision these overzealous Christians wanting to establish an evangelical Christian theocracy in the United States at some point.

 

[Bthoth]

last i checked Jesus is the only way to salvation .

That is religious make believe. Pure evidence of misdeed by the writing.

yes there will be some that will not have to die.

I know

other than that the dead don't get a chance for everlasting life unless they are alive

Untrue

,and can prove they are worthy by following the rules.

Many are natural. Love has that capacity

that's were judgment of their lives gets applied

I am watching you do pretty good even with misleading ideas

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

That is religious make believe. Pure evidence of misdeed by the writing.

The salvation story of Jesus is merely one among many mythological savior stories and, in my opinion, isn't any more credible than those that precede it.

 

[Bthoth]

• You do not know that there is no God, who authored the Bible.
• You do not know that letters written by Jesus' followers have very little merit.

What if I do without your knowing

Sorry. That's not my intention, and I encourage you to try not to be so self conscious about it. Otherwise, your perception of everything said will be about what you are conscious of... which nobody else may be thinking about.

I am conscious, here and now.

Rational discourse involves using the Bible, after confirming there is a good basis for doing so. Ask the Biblical archaeologists where they look to locate much of history in Israel.

Israel did not exist until after 1947, So historically no big deal.

Now the dialogue of torah has much deeper roots than mt sinai.

That's irrational. ... like the ones you make, for example.

\|/ that below it just funny

Is that why people wonder if Satan has his palace in the USA?

Things are really bad in some parts of the USA. Some people don't even trust the cops there. Why do you suppose that is?

Media and lack of personal responsibility

Yes, I know.

It's all just lip service, is it.

and lack of accountability

 

[nPeace]

What if I do without your knowing

Rational conversation does not include what ifs. Otherwise you would retract everything you said.
What if ......................................................................................................................................................................................

Israel did not exist until after 1947, So historically no big deal.

Thanks.

 

[Alien826]

That scripture says "the dead are raised up" Not dead bodies are raised up.

I normally don't try to contradict you on scripture, but this one seems to be plain. At the start of the chapter John sends a messenger from prison to ask Jesus if he is the prophesied "one". Jesus responds with a list of things he is doing there and then, most are miraculous and he also mentions his preaching. Among these miraculous signs is "the dead are raised".

It would seem a little odd that Jesus would include in a list of his miracles something relating to what happens to people after (normal, natural) death. John wants "signs", so Jesus responds with a list of miracles. And we know that Jesus is reported to have brought dead bodies back to life, the most familiar being Lazarus. So the whole thing fits together very well.

 

[Phin]

Nothing suggests the situation correctly described in Ecclesiastes has changed.

Ecclesiastes 3:18-20

I said in my heart with regard to the sons of men that God is testing them to show them that they are but beasts.

For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other.

They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts; for all is vanity.

All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again.


§
Ecclesiastes 9:4-6

He who is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost.

Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and they have no more for ever any share in all that is done under the sun.


Ecclesiastes 9:10

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.

You are correct, it is still the same. The bodies of both man and beast go back to dust and the spirit of man goes either up or down.

 

[nPeace]

I normally don't try to contradict you on scripture, but this one seems to be plain. At the start of the chapter John sends a messenger from prison to ask Jesus if he is the prophesied "one". Jesus responds with a list of things he is doing there and then, most are miraculous and he also mentions his preaching. Among these miraculous signs is "the dead are raised".

It would seem a little odd that Jesus would include in a list of his miracles something relating to what happens to people after (normal, natural) death. John wants "signs", so Jesus responds with a list of miracles. And we know that Jesus is reported to have brought dead bodies back to life, the most familiar being Lazarus. So the whole thing fits together very well.

Of course, if a person is raised from the dead, they need a body.
However, raising Peter, James, John... from the dead, does not involve raising up a decomposed body, for two reasons.

1. They aren't going to live in a fleshly mortal body.
2. They aren't given an old body.

1 Corinthians 15:38, 42-49

Similarly, when John 5:28, 29 takes place, resurrected ones won't be given an old diseased, decomposed body. They are raised up, and given a new body, even those who will be living in a fleshly body.

When Jesus raised the dead, their body had not decomposed.
Only Lazarus's had started to decay, but these resurrections were not taking place when God makes all things new, and no one dies from Adamic sin. Isaiah 65:17; Revelation 21:4
These too place when even those raised up, would die again, due to Adamic sin, because Jesus was giving a demonstration of what he would do during his millenial rule.

During that time, Adamic sin would not be the cause of death. Isaiah 65:20
Dead bodies are not raised up. Dead people are. 1 Corinthians 15:36
Actually, you can read the entire chapter.

 

[cataway]

That is religious make believe. Pure evidence of misdeed by the writing.

oh really , do you have a different Christ that can put life back into a dead body ?

 

[Bthoth]

oh really , do you have a different Christ that can put life back into a dead body ?

Body........? Frankenstein kind of reanimation?
Nope.

The christos is not a person, step 1.

 

[Bthoth]

Rational conversation does not include what ifs. Otherwise you would retract everything you said.
What if

My point is, perhaps you judge before finding out what is known.
What's to retract?

Thanks.

Why cry about reality?

 

[blü 2]

You are correct, it is still the same. The bodies of both man and beast go back to dust and the spirit of man goes either up or down.

The author of Ecclesiastes, as I understand it, sees no difference between breath and spirit. He is saying that death is the end, full stop. If you don't do it, think it, have emotional experiences of it, while you're alive, then afterwards there is nothing.

Which makes excellent sense. We've evolved to have a life-map built in ─ infant, learner, adolescent, worker, breeder, adviser of grandchildren, end of plan and purpose.

By contrast, the sheer purposeless of living eternally, the sheer boredom and lack of meaning and direction, is vastly more appalling than death.

As Woody Allen is said to have said, Eternity is very long, especially towards the end.

 

[cataway]

My point is, perhaps you judge before finding out what is known.
What's to retract?

Why cry about reality?

umm, you have never seen tears of joy ?

 

[cataway]

My point is, perhaps you judge before finding out what is known.
What's to retract?

Why cry about reality?

umm, you have never seen tears of joy ?

 

[Bthoth]

umm, you have never seen tears of joy ?

IN person, sure, but not emoji

 

[cataway]

IN person, sure, but not emoji

well ......now you have

 

[cataway]

IN person, sure, but not emoji

well ......now you have

 

[cataway]

IN person, sure, but not emoji

well ......now you have

 

[Alien826]

Of course, if a person is raised from the dead, they need a body.
However, raising Peter, James, John... from the dead, does not involve raising up a decomposed body, for two reasons.

1. They aren't going to live in a fleshly mortal body.
2. They aren't given an old body.

1 Corinthians 15:38, 42-49

Similarly, when John 5:28, 29 takes place, resurrected ones won't be given an old diseased, decomposed body. They are raised up, and given a new body, even those who will be living in a fleshly body.

When Jesus raised the dead, their body had not decomposed.
Only Lazarus's had started to decay, but these resurrections were not taking place when God makes all things new, and no one dies from Adamic sin. Isaiah 65:17; Revelation 21:4
These too place when even those raised up, would die again, due to Adamic sin, because Jesus was giving a demonstration of what he would do during his millenial rule.

During that time, Adamic sin would not be the cause of death. Isaiah 65:20
Dead bodies are not raised up. Dead people are. 1 Corinthians 15:36
Actually, you can read the entire chapter.

Fair enough, but I was just talking about Matthew 11. It seems there are two "types" of resurrection involved. One the specific "raising from the dead" performed by Jesus during his ministry on Earth and the general resurrection that (supposedly) awaits us all.

That's all.