Where are the Dead?

[URAVIP2ME]

Jesus is part of the Bible, so not a valid endorsement.
This isn't factual.
This isn't factual, either.
Why assume it's true?
It's not accurate or factual.

Why Not assume it is Not true ____________
Of course Jesus is part of the Bible, so why Not valid that what he said is recorded in the Bible for all to read.
The Bible is a literal book that No one can get rid of. No one can stop Matthew 24:14 from happening.
The world scene today is factual, and man has proven that man can't solve man's problems.
If not before, when the political turns on the religious you will see what is factual and accurate.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I've read your post, and I disagree with your personal interpretation of the Bible as well as your beliefs about the afterlife.

I have No beliefs about ' afterlife ' but rather about 'resurrection'. Acts 24:15
There is a BIG difference between an afterlife belief and resurrection.
Afterlife means: being more alive after death than before death. Being conscious at death is Not a Bible teaching.
Whereas, resurrection is future. The future tense is used at Acts 24:15 that there 'will be ' a resurrection.
A future resurrection from death's deep unconscious sleep - Ecclesiastes 9:5; Isaiah 38:18; Psalm 115:17

 

[F1fan]

Why Not assume it is Not true ____________

Truth is demonstrated, not believed without evidence.

Of course Jesus is part of the Bible, so why Not valid that what he said is recorded in the Bible for all to read.

Because it is a religious book, not an affidavit of fact. The book fails to present evidence that what it says is true. So we reject it.

The Bible is a literal book that No one can get rid of. No one can stop Matthew 24:14 from happening.

This is not a factual claim.

The world scene today is factual, and man has proven that man can't solve man's problems.

You mean the world that is dominated by Christianity?

If not before, when the political turns on the religious you will see what is factual and accurate.

This is a desperate claim that isn't factual. You sound rattled.

 

[F1fan]

I have No beliefs about ' afterlife ' but rather about 'resurrection'. Acts 24:15

Neither is based on fact.

There is a BIG difference between an afterlife belief and resurrection.

Sure, but neither idea is based on fact.

Afterlife means: being more alive after death than before death. Being conscious at death is Not a Bible teaching.
Whereas, resurrection is future. The future tense is used at Acts 24:15 that there 'will be ' a resurrection.
A future resurrection from death's deep unconscious sleep - Ecclesiastes 9:5; Isaiah 38:18; Psalm 115:17

Why do you think Christians are so greedy for more life? Isn't their actual life enough? Could it be they feel they wasted their one life believing in nonsesen and want a do over? Just reject bad religious belief, and get busy living.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Yes, I have read Bible quite well. What it says about God, soul, death, heaven, hell, resurrection, judgment and deliverance, IMHO, is completely false, made-up and superstitious. Yes, I am a Bible-basher because I find no truth in what is written in Bible............................

Then you are going to be in for quite a shock when the political turns on the religious.
When the powers in charge are saying, " Peace and Security......" ( 2nd Thess. 5:2-3) that Rosy saying will lead people down that Primrose Path.
That Rosy saying is the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Rev. 7:14.

Think of all the $ wealth the religions of the world have amassed.
A bad economy could lead the political to go after that wealth because it will be easy taking through the international or central banking system.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

.................Why do you think Christians are so greedy for more life? Isn't their actual life enough? Could it be they feel they wasted their one life believing in nonsesen and want a do over? Just reject bad religious belief, and get busy living.

Greedy (?) eternity is in your heart.
For each day you can think of you can think of a next day.
What healthy person wants to pick the day they want to die _____________
For each day you can count you can count both forwards and backwards forever and ever.
Actual life is enough, but loosing loved ones to enemy death is Not the real life. Death is Not life.
Not a 'do over ' but to have continued everlasting life as Jesus promised.

Are you saying that your posting here is that you are Not busy living __________

 

[Aupmanyav]

The Bible is a religious book (Not Wikipedia) and Jesus believed that Scripture is: religious truth - John 17:17
Jesus' view of death came from the Greatest Teacher ( aka his Heavenly Father )
In other words, pre-human heavenly Jesus was educated ( Not by any university ) but by God Himself.
Read the Bible to see for one's self what Jesus taught and why.
Jesus taught ' sleep ' in death - John 11:12-14
Why? because the old Hebrew Scriptures also teach 'sleep' in death - Psalm 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5

That is your belief and not mine. I do not take scriptures as truth.
Death comes from degeneration of body functions or accidents. No God involved.
I understand pre-human as Dryopiothecus, Ramapithecus, Australopithecus, Homo erectus and Homo sapiens neanderthalensis.
I know what Torah, Bible and Quran have said.
Lazarus is fiction. Who knows if the events were not so planned and executed? Religious preachers indulge in these tricks many a times. Puttaparthi Sai Baba in India made ashes fall from his palm and created Rolex watches and gold necklaces out of thin air.

 

[F1fan]

Then you are going to be in for quite a shock when the political turns on the religious.

Some call this paranoia.

When the powers in charge are saying, " Peace and Security......" ( 2nd Thess. 5:2-3) that Rosy saying will lead people down that Primrose Path.
That Rosy saying is the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Rev. 7:14.

Like the pope? Your pastor?

Think of all the $ wealth the religions of the world have amassed.
A bad economy could lead the political to go after that wealth because it will be easy taking through the international or central banking system.

So why are religions hoarding cash and not feeding people?

 

[F1fan]

Greedy (?) eternity is in your heart.

A dead heart? Zombie-like. Yes greedy. Why not just live the life you get?

For each day you can think of you can think of a next day.

What?

What healthy person wants to pick the day they want to die _____________

None I know. But I do think humans should have the freedom to end their lives if they have a terminal disease.

For each day you can count you can count both forwards and backwards forever and ever.

This isn't factual.

Actual life is enough, but loosing loved ones to enemy death is Not the real life. Death is Not life.

Death is afterlife, remember? Life goes on, in your beliefs. How? No one knows, so we throw it out because there is no facts to support the claim. And it is a concept that apveals to the most basic fear among insecure humans, the fear of death. Why not promise the guilible everlasting life? It's not like they will come back to life and sue the church for fraud, right?

Not a 'do over ' but to have continued everlasting life as Jesus promised.

A character in a Bible story promised this.

Are you saying that your posting here is that you are Not busy living __________

As long as I'm not guilible.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Any logical person knows that most of the scriptures are not written to be a straightforward as 'Go to bed.' Or 'Take out the garbage.'

Hello Trailblazer, hope you are well.
Actually, as JW’s we understand the Scriptures to be as straightforward as “go to bed”, or “take out the garbage.”

Even tho many of the events were described poetically, that doesn’t mean the incidents were simply metaphorical or allegories. Certainly just because the “Charge of the Light Brigade”, by Tennyson, was written as a poem, that doesn’t mean it wasn’t a real event.

I know you think that Adam & Eve were just allegorical people; but if that were so, in the genealogy of Jesus (which includes verified historical people like King David), Adam would not have been included; however he is: in Luke 3:38…”son of Seth, son of Adam, son of God.”

If Adam wasn’t a real person, then it negates the need for Jesus’ sacrifice. How did Jesus die for mankind’s sins, then?

Furthermore, to say the events presented by those Israelite Bible writers (like Moses, Isaiah, etc.), including the prophesies….to say those circumstances didn’t occur, is really to ascribe some dishonest & dark motives to those authors, and discredits the Bible’s authenticity.

Which is exactly what we would expect from God’s Archenemy if he is ruling this world, as Jesus (John 14:30, “ruler of this world”) & the Bible tell us.

“War broke out in Heaven (again, showing Satan in Heaven)…So down the Great Dragon was hurled…the one called Devil & Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth…and his angels were hurled down with him”. “Be glad, you Heavens!…Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.” — Revelation 12:7,9,12

Is it any wonder this world is out of control?

Take care, my cousin.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Death is afterlife, remember? Life goes on, in your beliefs

You don’t know our beliefs, then.

The dead are dead.

Before you judge our beliefs, you should learn them.

I bet JW beliefs about the condition of the dead, are the same as yours.

Interesting that many tombstones have R.I.P. on them, but most religious people don’t believe that.

 

[Trailblazer]

I know you think that Adam & Eve were just allegorical people; but if that were so, in the genealogy of Jesus (which includes verified historical people like King David), Adam would not have been included; however he is: in Luke 3:38…”son of Seth, son of Adam, son of God.”

If Adam wasn’t a real person, then it negates the need for Jesus’ sacrifice. How did Jesus die for mankind’s sins, then?

Here is what I believe about Adam and how that is related to Jesus' cross sacrifice.

As a Baha'i, I do not believe in the Adam and Eve were real people who existed. I do not believe that there was a literal garden with a tree and a snake and two people who ate a fruit from a tree. Rather, I interpret that part of Genesis as an allegory: 30: ADAM AND EVE

I believe that Adam was a Prophet who actually existed; not the first man, but the first Prophet of the Adamic cycle of religion.

What I believe the allegory means is that humans inherited the propensity to sin from Adam, but not because Adam ate an apple from a tree. Rather, when Adam was born, he entered into the world of good and evil, the material world... The attachment to the material world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam... It is because of this attachment that men have been deprived of essential spirituality and instead have the propensity to sin and do evil.

As the descendants of Adam, humans have one nature which can choose to do evil and one nature that can choose to do good.

Those who acknowledged the cross sacrifice and turned toward Jesus and His teachings were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, and were delivered from the chains of bondage to the material world. They were freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

It can't.

You’re right, those beliefs / interpretations contradict each other.

But those verses harmonize completely with each other.

Are you aware that the Bible refers to 2 resurrections? (Paul said he wanted to attain to the “earlier” resurrection. Philippians 3:11; see Revelation 20:5,6)

Knowing that there are 2, is a beginning to an understanding of what is meant.

There’s more involved, but it’s a start.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Then you are going to be in for quite a shock when the political turns on the religious.
When the powers in charge are saying, " Peace and Security......" ( 2nd Thess. 5:2-3) that Rosy saying will lead people down that Primrose Path.
That Rosy saying is the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Rev. 7:14.

Think of all the $ wealth the religions of the world have amassed.
A bad economy could lead the political to go after that wealth because it will be easy taking through the international or central banking system.

Your post hardly makes any sense - 'when the political turns on the religious'. What the hell you mean here?
Let the great tribulation come, it has been delayed for more than 2,000 years. Jesus told his disciples that it will come in their life-time.
I agree, what the superstitious give in donations to religious institutions, a large percentage of that should be comandeered by government for public welfare.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Here is what I believe about Adam and how that is related to Jesus' cross sacrifice.

As a Baha'i, I do not believe in the Adam and Eve were real people who existed. I do not believe that there was a literal garden with a tree and a snake and two people who ate a fruit from a tree. Rather, I interpret that part of Genesis as an allegory: 30: ADAM AND EVE

I believe that Adam was a Prophet who actually existed; not the first man, but the first Prophet of the Adamic cycle of religion.

What I believe the allegory means is that humans inherited the propensity to sin from Adam, but not because Adam ate an apple from a tree. Rather, when Adam was born, he entered into the world of good and evil, the material world... The attachment to the material world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam... It is because of this attachment that men have been deprived of essential spirituality and instead have the propensity to sin and do evil.

As the descendants of Adam, humans have one nature which can choose to do evil and one nature that can choose to do good.

Those who acknowledged the cross sacrifice and turned toward Jesus and His teachings were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, and were delivered from the chains of bondage to the material world. They were freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom.

Thank you, Trailblazer, for helping me understand your beliefs!

You’re exactly right in saying sin was inherited.

Right off, I have a couple questions tho:

You don’t believe Adam was the first man, but then you said:

“As the descendants of Adam, humans have one nature which can choose to do evil and one nature that can choose to do good.”

Since we all have that ability, basically Free Will, then we’re all descendants of Adam, right? So how is he not the first man?

Also, what is the “Adamic cycle of religion”?

Thanks ahead of time, for answering my questions.

I’ll return tomorrow.

Best wishes!

 

[Trailblazer]

Thanks ahead of time, for answering my questions.

I’ll return tomorrow.

I'll be back tommorrow to answer them. It's way past my bedtime!

 

[Aupmanyav]

You don’t believe Adam was the first man, but then you said:
“As the descendants of Adam, humans have one nature which can choose to do evil and one nature that can choose to do good.”

Oh, nothing surprising. Trailblazer usually comes up with such contradictory statements.

 

[nPeace]

1. It is perfectly logical (not illogical) that only mediums can see and talk to spirits -- they're mediums!

Why?

2. ALL mediums do not need need information about the dead person, from the living. If they ask for such information that is a reason to be suspicious.

I did not say all. I said some.
Did @Sgt. Pepper not tell you to give information asked for by mediums? Are you suspicious?

 

[nPeace]

Any logical person knows that most of the scriptures are not written to be a straightforward as 'Go to bed.' Or 'Take out the garbage.'

Most? Who decided that? You?
In any case, some are as straightforward as 'Go to bed.' Or 'Take out the garbage.'
Like ..

the living know that they will die​

Certainly you don't need a scientist to interpret that for you. So why do you think this needs interpreting?

but the dead know nothing at all​

Jesus spoke in parables but even when He didn't people interpret the scriptures differently, which is proof positive that they can mean different things to different people.

Thus my point stands: Any logical person knows that all words have to be interpreted before they can be accepted, and words mean different things to different people, since not all humans think alike.

Here is an example of what I am saying. The following verses are very straightforward, perfectly clear. Jesus finished the work He had to do on earth and He is not coming back to earth, yet most Christians STILL BELIEVE that Jesus is going to return to earth someday. Why?

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

If God says, for example, "Go jump in a river", and then explains what he means, why would you need to go to John Brown to get him interpret what God explains?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

That is your belief and not mine. I do not take scriptures as truth.
Death comes from degeneration of body functions or accidents. No God involved.
I understand pre-human as Dryopiothecus, Ramapithecus, Australopithecus, Homo erectus and Homo sapiens neanderthalensis.
I know what Torah, Bible and Quran have said.
Lazarus is fiction. Who knows if the events were not so planned and executed? Religious preachers indulge in these tricks many a times. Puttaparthi Sai Baba in India made ashes fall from his palm and created Rolex watches and gold necklaces out of thin air.

Thank you for your informative reply.
I do realize many do Not take Scripture as truth (religious truth)
Yes, religious preachers do indulge in many tricks. That was true in Jesus day and why he pronounced many 'woes' against them.
To me such preachers do not make the Bible as wrong, but just makes them as wrong.
Yes, I can agree that death comes from degeneration or accidents, but to me God is who is involved in Resurrection of the dead.
I know the thought of an earthly physical resurrection is also rejected by most, especially religious preachers.
They often make a name for themselves by putting their name on their writings directing attention to their work leading to heaven.