When was "the Messiah" first mentioned in scripture?

[Firenze]

Mmh. NO, NO and NO raised to a lot of powers. Period.

Oh.... to 'a lot of powers' huh? Your ignorance of scripture and complete absence of an intelligent rebuttal proves my point. You should go tithe some more. Your church relies on your gullibility.

 

[Colt]

Why should I care what the Jews think about Jesus? For the most part, throughout their history as God's chosen people, their human leaders were rebellious and wicked ... they used to kill the Jehovah's prophets because they didn't like what God was saying to them through those men...

The prophecy clearly indicated that only a minority of Jews would accept the Messiah, and that this would officially bring non-Jews closer to God. According to Jewish tradition, Isaiah, one of Jehovah's prophets, was sawn to death by King Manasseh, the nation's own leader. Isaiah had prophesied:

Is. 10:21 Only a remnant will return,
The remnant of Jacob, to the Mighty God.
22 For though your people, O Israel,
Are as the grains of sand of the sea,
Only a remnant of them will return.
An extermination has been decided on,
And justice will engulf them.
23 Yes, the extermination decided on by the Sovereign Lord, Jehovah of armies,
Will be carried out in the entire land.

... 1:8 The daughter of Zion has been left like a shelter in a vineyard,
Like a hut in a cucumber field,
Like a city under siege.
9 Unless Jehovah of armies had left us a few survivors,
We should have become just like Sodom,
And we should have resembled Gomorrah.

If you have a Bible, read Romans 8, and you will find other prophecies about Israel's rejection of the Messiah when he appears.

Matt. 21:42 Jesus said to them: “Did YOU never read in the Scriptures, ‘The stone that the builders rejected is the one that has become the chief cornerstone. From Jehovah this has come to be, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? 43 This is why I say to YOU, The kingdom of God will be taken from YOU and be given to a nation producing its fruits. 44 Also, the person falling upon this stone will be shattered. As for anyone upon whom it falls, it will pulverize him.”
45 Now when the chief priests and the Pharisees had heard his illustrations, they took note that he was speaking about them. 46 But, although they were seeking to seize him, they feared the crowds, because these held him to be a prophet.

The Messiah is sent from God; not chosen by humans. When Jesus appeared as Messiah in the area of Judah, the Jews already knew that this was the time... but they did not realize it even though they had everything in front of their eyes; only a few saw it, as it was prophesied.

Since then millions and millions of people around the world have accepted Jesus as God's envoy and recognize that his reign will put an end to all unjust governments that exist today.

Acts 15:13 After they finished speaking, James replied: “Men, brothers, hear me. 14 Symʹe·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written: 16 ‘After these things I will return and raise up again the tent of David that is fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins and restore it, 17 so that the men who remain may earnestly seek Jehovah, together with people of all the nations, people who are called by my name, says Jehovah, who is doing these things, 18 known from of old.’ 19 Therefore, my decision is not to trouble those from the nations who are turning to God (...)"

Do you think that if someone now appears as Messiah, the Jews will accept him even if he says things that affect their interests? Or do you rather think that they are going to be in charge of choosing who they want to be their own Messiah?

The Israelites call themselves "Gods chosen people" becuse they became theologically arrogant! Abraham was a chosen individual; the future occupation of Canaan was predicted but the claim of an eternal nation (promised land) is a product of human egotism and political nationalism. The expectations of an exclusively Jewish Messiah were erroneous and have failed!

NOTE: Christians adopted the new chosen people, theological arrogance!

Jesus chose the tittle "son of man" patterned after the Book of Enoch. He allowed his followers who chose him to believe what they needed to believe in order to follow him.

Earlier on this thread "rosends" posted a link to one of the many explanations by Jews about what they believe the requirements of a Jewish Messiah is based on their scriptures. https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/108400/jewish/The-End-of-Days.htm

 

[River Sea]

A better way of stating this is the following.

1. The 7 miztvoth or the Noachide laws are for all non-Jewish humanity.
2. Avraham ben-Terahh (who you would call Abraham) is a good example of how to navigate them.
   • According to the most ancient texts describing Avraham ben-Terahh he did not start a religion.
3. Most of the non-Jewish world, by simple non-religious normal logic, is already following most of the 7 mitzvoth.
   • I.e. most rational humans would do them w/o ever knowing that they are the basis of Hashem "programming" into the concept of being human.

I hope that helps.

@Ehav4Ever
So Hashem programs us; is Hashem a programmer?
Can people have a relationship with Hashem?

I remember earlier conversations you explaining
Elohim = big bang
Meaning: Hashem is the source of all reality i.e. the cause of reality
Elohim means: Strength / Power

 

[Eli G]

The Israelites call themselves "Gods chosen people" becuse they became theologically arrogant!
(...)
NOTE: Christians adopted the new chosen people, theological arrogance!
(...)

Although it is true that God used some Jews to write his written Word, it should be noted that only a few of them were selected to have that privilege. Although Jehovah did produce and cleanse the entire nation and benefit it in many ways, they did not keep the part of the covenant that they were supposed to keep, and that is why they were constantly punished.

It is important that we recognize what role the Israelite nation played in the transmission of divine truths, but we must not be confused and think that they were chosen on their own merit or that they are the inventors of Jehovah's relationship with humans. The nation of Israel played an important role in God's purpose for humanity in general, but that role does not determine God's relationship with the rest of humanity or the fulfillment of his purpose for all human beings; Furthermore, that role of the old Israel has already expired.

Modern Jews do not have a priesthood or a temple where to perform it, they do not have a Davidic king, they do not fulfill and cannot fulfill the law of Moses in its entirety (such as condemning to death for the reasons stated in the Law of Moses), do not have the ancient genealogies nor can they return the lands to the descendants of their original owners, ... and could go on to explain why they are not the Jews that the Scriptures speak of for modern times like Daniel's people in Dan. 12:1 or the Jew mentioned in Zech. 8:23, the real or false Jews in Rev. 2:9; 3:9, etc.

Jehovah decided that by means of Abraham ALL NATIONS ON EARTH would be blessed (Gen. 12:3; Gal. 3:8), and this became possible from the rejection that the Jews made of Jehovah's Messiah.

 

[rosends]

The Israelites call themselves "Gods chosen people" becuse they became theologically arrogant! Abraham was a chosen individual; the future occupation of Canaan was predicted but the claim of an eternal nation (promised land) is a product of human egotism and political nationalism. The expectations of an exclusively Jewish Messiah were erroneous and have failed!

but doesn't the claim that the divine chose the people exist in the same text as the claim that Abraham was a chosen person (see Deit 14:2)? Are you opting to accept one as truly divine and another part as not? Isn't that a bit capricious? If the text is not authoritative then neither claim should hold water for you I would think. Please help me understand and thanks in advance.

 

[dybmh]

Doesn't the Talmud disparage Jesus _______

No. None of those other Jesus's fit. If we consider the Talmud accurate ( and I'm not sure why you would ), then Yeshu ( Jesus ) was a common name. And this seems to be supported by the verse in Matthew. There were multiple Jesus's.

From the writings of Josephus a number of Messiah's arose even to the point of Kokhba (Bar Koziba)

Yes. And that's why it makes sense to consider that at the time of the composition of the gospels there were probably many stories of Jesus type figures, it's even possible multiple messianic preachers named Jesus operating at the time.

And that's why I asked, "which Jesus"? The Talmud had several (but none of them match up). And Matthew said there would be "many".

Remember those Jews were looking for a political Messiah so which Jesus (?) the one who was Not a political Messiah.

The one's in the Talmud don't really match. None of them were political, though. If the authors wanted to disparage the Jesus of the gospels, they could have done it.

 

[Eli G]

When the Eastern astrologers came to Jerusalem looking for the future Jewish king who had been born, they asked the Jews in Jerusalem where the prophecy said that he would be born, because they were looking for information about the exact place to see him. This is the account:

Matt. 2:1 After Jesus had been born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, look! astrologers from the East came to Jerusalem, 2 saying: “Where is the one born king of the Jews? For we saw his star when we were in the East, and we have come to do obeisance to him.”
3 At hearing this, King Herod was agitated, and all Jerusalem with him. 4 On gathering together all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born.
5 They said to him: “In Bethlehem of Judea, for this is how it has been written through the prophet: 6 ‘And you, O Bethlehem of the land of Judah, are by no means the most insignificant city among the governors of Judah, for out of you will come a governing one, who will shepherd my people Israel.’”

They knew the birthplace of the Messiah, and furthermore they had a prophecy in Daniel that marked the time of the appearance of the Messiah in their own times (Dan. 9:24,25). Many Jews came to recognize Jesus as the expected Messiah, and not only them, but also many proselytes (Jewish converts) and Samaritans. Why didn't the leaders of Jerusalem and the rest of the Jewish leaders want to accept it?

Because Jews at Jesus' time wanted a warrior to free them from Rome, but Jesus was not supposed to come to do that, as they believed. They should have been able to rectify their expectations when they saw what he did do and how he showed that Jehovah was indeed supporting him as his chosen one. They tried to impose their own politico-religious point of view on matters that they could not choose.

What are the Biblical prophecies that they believe will be fulfilled by the one they say they are still waiting for? Will he be born in Bethlehem as they themselves said in Jesus' time? What political yoke do Jews think he will free them from this time? Will they accept him even if he doesn't meet their expectations? Will all the Jews around the world give him the support he is supposed to get from them, or will they create factions like they always do?

It doesn't really matter, because they, as a nation, already rejected the Messiah when he tried to help them become part of the kingdom of God. And now they are NOT the people of God ... most of them don't even believe in their own biblical history .

 

[Colt]

but doesn't the claim that the divine chose the people exist in the same text as the claim that Abraham was a chosen person (see Deit 14:2)? Are you opting to accept one as truly divine and another part as not? Isn't that a bit capricious? If the text is not authoritative then neither claim should hold water for you I would think. Please help me understand and thanks in advance.

The same texts say conflicting things about the same events in other areas because it's a product of human beings whose minds changed over the ages. The same priest class who produced the scriptures for consumption by the masses ALSO claimed God wrote what they wrote so that they could maintain control. Sadly, sincere believers accept those claims out of fear and pride.

Again the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, “Go, number Israel and Judah.” (2 Samuel 24:1)

200 years later belief changed:

Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel. (1 Chronicles 21:1)

Just because Abraham (who left no writings) was a chosen individual does not mean that his so-called descendants were a chosen race of people in an ethno-state segregated from the rest of the world. Predicted land became promised forever and ever land in the retrospectives written by the people who see themselves as favored! Besides the Israelites mixed with the Canaanites but would later claim they killed them all min the same book!

 

[dybmh]

You don't seem to know that the first followers of Jesus were Jews. Jesus, who was also a Jew, showed them from the Scriptures the prophecies that pointed to him as the Messiah.

These were simple Jews, correct? Do you think they had access to scripture to check and see if what was being preached was actually true and accurate? Also, weren't the target audience sinners? So, one can't really judge the accuracy of the message based on Jewish sinners at a time when they wouldn't have known the scripture very well to begin with.

For the most part, throughout their history as God's chosen people, their human leaders were rebellious and wicked

Um, not just the leaders. The whole nation. That's why claiming the first Christians were Jews, doesn't prove anything.

According to Jewish tradition, Isaiah, one of Jehovah's prophets, was sawn to death by King Manasseh, the nation's own leader.

Just curious, have you read this tradition yourself? It's very hard to believe.

 

[Colt]

Although it is true that God used some Jews to write his written Word, it should be noted that only a few of them were selected to have that privilege. Although Jehovah did produce and cleanse the entire nation and benefit it in many ways, they did not keep the part of the covenant that they were supposed to keep, and that is why they were constantly punished.

It is important that we recognize what role the Israelite nation played in the transmission of divine truths, but we must not be confused and think that they were chosen on their own merit or that they are the inventors of Jehovah's relationship with humans. The nation of Israel played an important role in God's purpose for humanity in general, but that role does not determine God's relationship with the rest of humanity or the fulfillment of his purpose for all human beings; Furthermore, that role of the old Israel has already expired.

Modern Jews do not have a priesthood or a temple where to perform it, they do not have a Davidic king, they do not fulfill and cannot fulfill the law of Moses in its entirety (such as condemning to death for the reasons stated in the Law of Moses), do not have the ancient genealogies nor can they return the lands to the descendants of their original owners, ... and could go on to explain why they are not the Jews that the Scriptures speak of for modern times like Daniel's people in Dan. 12:1 or the Jew mentioned in Zech. 8:23, the real or false Jews in Rev. 2:9; 3:9, etc.

Jehovah decided that by means of Abraham ALL NATIONS ON EARTH would be blessed (Gen. 12:3; Gal. 3:8), and this became possible from the rejection that the Jews made of Jehovah's Messiah.

IMOP God did indeed work with the Israelites as a monotheistic culture but eventually they rejected God and the Kingdom of Heaven was then given to other people. In a strange way Judaism became a religion all about being chosen but losing sight of what they were chosen for.

 

[Eli G]

These were simple Jews, correct? Do you think they had access to scripture to check and see if what was being preached was actually true and accurate? Also, weren't the target audience sinners? So, one can't really judge the accuracy of the message based on Jewish sinners at a time when they wouldn't have known the scripture very well to begin with.

Just curious, have you read this tradition yourself? It's very hard to believe.

I study the Bible and that is enough to understand what I need to know about it. I read some other historical documents or articles, but they don't change anything I can see by myself in the Bible.

Tell me, honestly: Since when do Jews no longer have a prophet who listens directly the voice of Jehovah, so that the rest of Jews can hear him without doubting that he speaks in the name of God?

I can answer that, because the Bible helps me to know it: since Malachi, more than 4 centuries before Jesus appeared. Do you think that this changed in modern times? From Jesus on Jews' relationship with God worsened, although some want to believe otherwise. They have no support from Jehovah... so they go on their own.

 

[dybmh]

The prophecy clearly indicated that only a minority of Jews would accept the Messiah,

Here is the prophecy ( including verse 20 ) using what appears to be your preferred translation. Respectfully, would you please show me where "The Messiah" is clearly indicated?

20 In that day those remaining of IsraelAnd the survivors of the house of Jacob will no longer support themselves on the one who struck them; But they will support themselves on Jehovah,The Holy One of Israel, with faithfulness.

21 Only a remnant will return,The remnant of Jacob, to the Mighty God.

22 For though your people, O Israel, Are as the grains of sand of the sea, Only a remnant of them will return. An extermination has been decided on, and justice will engulf them.

23 Yes, the extermination decided on by the Sovereign Lord, Jehovah of armies, Will be carried out in the entire land.
​

Same question for Isaiah 1. You quoted a few verses, but I see nothing "clearly indicating" rejecting "The Messiah". Would you please direct me to those verses in Chapter 1?

 

[dybmh]

Do you think that if someone now appears as Messiah, the Jews will accept him even if he says things that affect their interests? Or do you rather think that they are going to be in charge of choosing who they want to be their own Messiah?

Of course! That's part of the miracle! That's part of the proof! That's how one knows it's God's will!

He will raise up a signal for the nations and gather the dispersed ones of Israel, and he will gather together the scattered ones of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
​

Please note: not just Israel, but the scattered ones of Judah. What do you think "scattered ones" means? Sure, literally it's talking about a physical exile. But what do you think it means on a deeper level? They're scattered spiritually, too. And these scattered ones, God will gather them, around the root of Jesse. What does it mean "from the four corners of the earth"? Again, not physically, spiritually? Every possible opinion, every possible conflicting idea, every possible interpretation of scripture, all of those God will gather around this individual.

So yes, 100% yes, The Jewish people will accept the future king when it happens. That's part of the prophecy!

 

[Eli G]

I do prefer my posts to be quoted in context.

Why should I care what the Jews think about Jesus? For the most part, throughout their history as God's chosen people, their human leaders were rebellious and wicked ... they used to kill the Jehovah's prophets because they didn't like what God was saying to them through those men...

The prophecy clearly indicated that only a minority of Jews would accept the Messiah, and that this would officially bring non-Jews closer to God. According to Jewish tradition, Isaiah, one of Jehovah's prophets, was sawn to death by King Manasseh, the nation's own leader. Isaiah had prophesied:

Is. 10:21 Only a remnant will return,
The remnant of Jacob, to the Mighty God.
22 For though your people, O Israel,
Are as the grains of sand of the sea,
Only a remnant of them will return.
An extermination has been decided on,
And justice will engulf them.
23 Yes, the extermination decided on by the Sovereign Lord, Jehovah of armies,
Will be carried out in the entire land.

... 1:8 The daughter of Zion has been left like a shelter in a vineyard,
Like a hut in a cucumber field,
Like a city under siege.
9 Unless Jehovah of armies had left us a few survivors,
We should have become just like Sodom,
And we should have resembled Gomorrah.

If you have a Bible, read Romans 8, and you will find other prophecies about Israel's rejection of the Messiah when he appears.

Matt. 21:42 Jesus said to them: “Did YOU never read in the Scriptures, ‘The stone that the builders rejected is the one that has become the chief cornerstone. From Jehovah this has come to be, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? 43 This is why I say to YOU, The kingdom of God will be taken from YOU and be given to a nation producing its fruits. 44 Also, the person falling upon this stone will be shattered. As for anyone upon whom it falls, it will pulverize him.”
45 Now when the chief priests and the Pharisees had heard his illustrations, they took note that he was speaking about them. 46 But, although they were seeking to seize him, they feared the crowds, because these held him to be a prophet.

The Messiah is sent from God; not chosen by humans. When Jesus appeared as Messiah in the area of Judah, the Jews already knew that this was the time... but they did not realize it even though they had everything in front of their eyes; only a few saw it, as it was prophesied.

Since then millions and millions of people around the world have accepted Jesus as God's envoy and recognize that his reign will put an end to all unjust governments that exist today.

Acts 15:13 After they finished speaking, James replied: “Men, brothers, hear me. 14 Symʹe·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written: 16 ‘After these things I will return and raise up again the tent of David that is fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins and restore it, 17 so that the men who remain may earnestly seek Jehovah, together with people of all the nations, people who are called by my name, says Jehovah, who is doing these things, 18 known from of old.’ 19 Therefore, my decision is not to trouble those from the nations who are turning to God (...)"

Do you think that if someone now appears as Messiah, the Jews will accept him even if he says things that affect their interests? Or do you rather think that they are going to be in charge of choosing who they want to be their own Messiah?

It is a logical inference that if the nation rejects the Messiah in general and only a minority accepts him, then only that minority would be approved by God. Similarly in this conversation about Eliah being worried about how many men in Israel were still loyal to Jehovah in Jezabel times.

1 Kings 19:18 " (...) I still have left 7,000 in Israel, all whose knees have not bent down to Baal and whose mouths have not kissed him.”

Do you know the story? It is typical of the nation of Israel in its whole biblical history.

PS: I say Israel in general; I know Israel became two kingdoms after Solomon's death. I study the Scriptures, remember.

 

[dybmh]

Mmh. NO, NO and NO raised to a lot of powers. Period.

Good. So it doesn't matter that the original Christians were Jews, correct?

 

[dybmh]

Because Jews at Jesus' time wanted a warrior to free them from Rome, but Jesus was not supposed to come to do that, as they believed. They should have been able to rectify their expectations when they saw what he did do and how he showed that Jehovah was indeed supporting him as his chosen one. They tried to impose their own politico-religious point of view on matters that they could not choose.

This doesn't quite match the gospel story, correct? In the gospels, Jesus was rejectected for claiming to be God, and for appearing to be possessed? Also, Jesus spoke in parables which were not easily understood?

 

[Eli G]

(...) So yes, 100% yes, The Jewish people will accept the future king when it happens. That's part of the prophecy!

I can see your hope ... but you probably didn't understand my point. Read my post again ...

It has happened, AND MANY TIMES, that the Jews during all their expectation about the King of God have accepted the wrong one as Messiah. Do you know all the stories of false Jewish Messiahs and how many have been duped along with them? I can mention a few if you wish; their stories are very interesting.

What makes you believe that the next one yes will be the one God chose? Who is going to decide that among the Jews around the world? The president of Israel? His opponents? Any other Jewish or Israelite party that nobody knows about but that continues to exert pressure on the modern nation? The Jews around the world, the ones in Wall Street?

And where do they get that what modern Jews decide is what Jehovah has decided?

 

[dybmh]

Judaism became a religion all about being chosen

Nope, sorry. It's all about devotion to God.

 

[dybmh]

I study the Bible and that is enough to understand what I need to know about it. I read some other historical documents or articles, but they don't change anything I can see by myself in the Bible.

So, you don't know the story about Isaiah's supposed death? Then please don't cite it as if it means anything. It's an utterly unbelievable story.

Tell me, honestly: Since when do Jews no longer have a prophet who listens directly the voice of Jehovah, so that the rest of Jews can hear him without doubting that he speaks in the name of God?

I can answer that, because the Bible helps me to know it: since Malachi, more than 4 centuries before Jesus appeared. Do you think that this changed in modern times? From Jesus on Jews' relationship with God worsened, although some want to believe otherwise. They have no support from Jehovah... so they go on their own.

This really doesn't have anything to do with whether or not the first Christians were knowledgable enough about scripture to determine whether or not Jesus was accurately describing the prophecies.

Regarding support from Jehovah, perhaps you can provide some evidence that your community is supported by Jehovah? I suspect that I can provide equal evidence that my community is supported by Jehovah. Sound fair?

 

[rosends]

The same texts say conflicting things about the same events in other areas because it's a product of human beings whose minds changed over the ages. The same priest class who produced the scriptures for consumption by the masses ALSO claimed God wrote what they wrote so that they could maintain control. Sadly, sincere believers accept those claims out of fear and pride.

Again the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, “Go, number Israel and Judah.” (2 Samuel 24:1)

200 years later belief changed:

Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel. (1 Chronicles 21:1)

Just because Abraham (who left no writings) was a chosen individual does not mean that his so-called descendants were a chosen race of people in an ethno-state segregated from the rest of the world. Predicted land became promised forever and ever land in the retrospectives written by the people who see themselves as favored! Besides the Israelites mixed with the Canaanites but would later claim they killed them all min the same book!

but because he left no writings, you have no proof that he was a chosen individual. You are choosing to accept that, but choosing not to accept other statements.