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When was "the Messiah" first mentioned in scripture?

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Right, but the common saying "through one man sin entered the world" is not accurate. Through Satan sin or rebellion entered our world which was already populated anyway. Cain feared people out in the world, God agreed with him.
Yes, the ' world of mankind ' the world of ' humanity ' which started with Adam. Adam is the one - Romans 5:14
Death spread Not because Satan had sinned, but that man sinned and man passed down sin to man. - Romans 5:19
ALL have sinned (Romans 3:23) first Satan then Eve and Adam. The blame rests on Adam's shoulders.
Satan worked through Adam, God worked through Jesus. Adam failed. Jesus succeeded.
Jesus success shows that Adam could have remained faithful/ obedient under good paradisical conditions.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Which Jesus? ;) ( Matthew 24:5 )
And I think you mean Talmud, not Tanach.
I mean the Torah, Prophets, writings ( 24 books of the old Hebrew Scriptures )
Doesn't the Talmud disparage Jesus _______
From the writings of Josephus a number of Messiah's arose even to the point of Kokhba (Bar Koziba)
Remember those Jews were looking for a political Messiah so which Jesus (?) the one who was Not a political Messiah.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
Yes, the ' world of mankind ' the world of ' humanity ' which started with Adam. Adam is the one - Romans 5:14
Death spread Not because Satan had sinned, but that man sinned and man passed down sin to man. - Romans 5:19
ALL have sinned (Romans 3:23) first Satan then Eve and Adam. The blame rests on Adam's shoulders.
Satan worked through Adam, God worked through Jesus. Adam failed. Jesus succeeded.
Jesus success shows that Adam could have remained faithful/ obedient under good paradisical conditions.
Apparently Paul never read Genesis.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Someone? Ask your "someone" how Jews are portrayed in Christian sources.
Ask someone? How about me !
When I moved to a small town from a big city at age 10 I was in for quite a surprise.
Two classmates were Jewish and I enjoyed their company.
One day at the pencil sharpener one classmate came up to me and said those two are Jews. I said I know that.
Then, I realized those protestant children were anti-Jew and I became black balled right along with them.
Boy, was it 'fun' leaving school at the end of day !
I realized those prejudiced classmates where never going to bring or win anyone over to Christ.
One Jewish classmate moved to Florida and the other today is a wonderful doctor who I am still in contact with.
(P.S. then in Junior High (now called middle school ) it was obvious how the gym teacher was anti-black.)
So, how are many portrayed in what could be called Christian sources but is Not a source from Jesus.

The faithful Jews of the Hebrew Scriptures are named as being honored in God's Hall of Fame - Hebrews chapter 11.
It was the un-faithful Jews who are portrayed in a bad light in the year 70 when the Romans armies destroyed un-faithful Jerusalem.
When the un-faithful Jews began mixing with non-Jews (Greeks for example) is when un-biblical thinking entered into the picture and un-faithful Christians picked up their mixing of Scripture with non-Scripture as being Scripture.
Thus, the warning Luke gives at Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30, and Jesus at Matthew 15:9
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
The video kept harping about the word "the" I never used the word 'the' before Messiah.

Actually, in video it harped on what shows up in the actually Hebrew text including the grammer. Thus, it explained what the Hebrew text states rather than what certain Christian translations state.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Others understand what the English word "Genesis" means. Neither do Christians need the first draft of the Gospels.

I never said what Christians need or don't need. I talked about what Jews don't need. I.e. if Greek gospels, or gospels in general, are fine by Christians we Jews aren't here to argue with any Christian about that. The quesiton addressed by Jews from you OP dealt with where Jews first source the concept of a (משיח) from. That has been answered. If it was a question to begin with.

We Torath Mosheh Jews were warned to stay away from all versions of the Christian gospels no matter what language they, potentially, may have been in in the past or what language their current versions are in. Yet, them being Greek makes the point stronger of why Torath Mosheh Jews should stay away.

Christians can do whatever they want with what ever text they want. That is the point.

 
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Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Others understand what the English word "Genesis" means.

I am glad for those others you mention. I will stick to this, below.

upload_2023-1-21_18-54-39.jpeg
 

Eli G

Well-Known Member
Jesus was forced into a number of places in the OT scriptures that had not previously been thought of in Judaism as messianic. Gen 3:15 is the most bizarre of them all.
You don't seem to know that the first followers of Jesus were Jews. Jesus, who was also a Jew, showed them from the Scriptures the prophecies that pointed to him as the Messiah.
 

Firenze

Active Member
Premium Member
You don't seem to know that the first followers of Jesus were Jews. Jesus, who was also a Jew, showed them from the Scriptures the prophecies that pointed to him as the Messiah.

Isn't that convenient? The OT authors told us what the attributes of the Messiah would be. Then the gospel authors come along - decades after the death of Jesus - and put words in Jesus' mouth that clearly contradict the word of God from the OT. Do you know why Jews are still waiting for their Messiah? It's because Jesus and the NT are a fraud - used to con ignorant pagans who are now the victims of the multi trillion dollar 3 Card Monty scam known as Christianity. I don't know why Christians lack the intellectual integrity to actually read the OT. :confused:

The Messiah - Key beliefs in Judaism - GCSE Religious Studies Revision - AQA - BBC Bitesize
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
You don't seem to know that the first followers of Jesus were Jews. Jesus, who was also a Jew, showed them from the Scriptures the prophecies that pointed to him as the Messiah.
Yes, the first followers of Jesus were Jews and they believed Jesus to be the Messiah. After the Son of God returned to heaven his followers appear to have assumed he would "soon return" to fulfill the expectations of the Jewish Messiah. Jesus was very different than the expected Messsiah because he wasn't.
 

Eli G

Well-Known Member
(...) Jesus was very different than the expected Messsiah because he wasn't.
Maybe not in your mind ... Your opinion is irrelevant.

Most Jews on Jesus time did not believe he was the Messiah, but a lot of them did. You ... don't matter; you probably are not Jew, you didn't know Jesus and you probably don't even have a clue about the prophecies about the Messiah.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
Maybe not in your mind ... Your opinion is irrelevant.

Most Jews on Jesus time did not believe he was the Messiah, but a lot of them did. You ... don't matter; you probably are not Jew, you didn't know Jesus and you probably don't even have a clue about the prophecies about the Messiah.
Very few believed and supported Jesus after the free bread and fish was finished. The Sanhedrin put Jesus through a trumped up trial and had the Romans execute him. The followers of Jesus in Jerusalem were a small cult up until Titus ran them out! Judaism rejected Jesus then and they gave rejected him for 2000 years.

Ask the Jews and they will provide specific scriptures concerning the Jewish Messiah who has yet to appear.
 

Eli G

Well-Known Member
Why should I care what the Jews think about Jesus? For the most part, throughout their history as God's chosen people, their human leaders were rebellious and wicked ... they used to kill the Jehovah's prophets because they didn't like what God was saying to them through those men...

The prophecy clearly indicated that only a minority of Jews would accept the Messiah, and that this would officially bring non-Jews closer to God. According to Jewish tradition, Isaiah, one of Jehovah's prophets, was sawn to death by King Manasseh, the nation's own leader. Isaiah had prophesied:

Is. 10:21 Only a remnant will return,
The remnant of Jacob, to the Mighty God.
22 For though your people, O Israel,
Are as the grains of sand of the sea,
Only a remnant of them will return.
An extermination has been decided on,
And justice will engulf them.
23 Yes, the extermination decided on by the Sovereign Lord, Jehovah of armies,
Will be carried out in the entire land.

... 1:8 The daughter of Zion has been left like a shelter in a vineyard,
Like a hut in a cucumber field,
Like a city under siege.
9 Unless Jehovah of armies had left us a few survivors,
We should have become just like Sodom,
And we should have resembled Gomorrah.

If you have a Bible, read Romans 8, and you will find other prophecies about Israel's rejection of the Messiah when he appears.

Matt. 21:42 Jesus said to them: “Did YOU never read in the Scriptures, ‘The stone that the builders rejected is the one that has become the chief cornerstone. From Jehovah this has come to be, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? 43 This is why I say to YOU, The kingdom of God will be taken from YOU and be given to a nation producing its fruits. 44 Also, the person falling upon this stone will be shattered. As for anyone upon whom it falls, it will pulverize him.”
45 Now when the chief priests and the Pharisees had heard his illustrations, they took note that he was speaking about them. 46 But, although they were seeking to seize him, they feared the crowds, because these held him to be a prophet.

The Messiah is sent from God; not chosen by humans. When Jesus appeared as Messiah in the area of Judah, the Jews already knew that this was the time... but they did not realize it even though they had everything in front of their eyes; only a few saw it, as it was prophesied.

Since then millions and millions of people around the world have accepted Jesus as God's envoy and recognize that his reign will put an end to all unjust governments that exist today.

Acts 15:13 After they finished speaking, James replied: “Men, brothers, hear me. 14 Symʹe·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written: 16 ‘After these things I will return and raise up again the tent of David that is fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins and restore it, 17 so that the men who remain may earnestly seek Jehovah, together with people of all the nations, people who are called by my name, says Jehovah, who is doing these things, 18 known from of old.’ 19 Therefore, my decision is not to trouble those from the nations who are turning to God (...)"

Do you think that if someone now appears as Messiah, the Jews will accept him even if he says things that affect their interests? Or do you rather think that they are going to be in charge of choosing who they want to be their own Messiah?
 

River Sea

Active Member
Please be aware, "messiah" is not a word we Jews invented. The term (משיח) does not mean "messiah." The use of the English term, messiah, by us Jews I think confuses the issues a bit.

If one were to speak English in a Hebrew/Jewish way the term "Future Davidic King" may be a better way of understanding the Jewish Tanakh basis.

@Ehav4Ever
  • Jews await the arrival of the King
  • The messiah has arrived for Christians.
  • ??? Muslim? Muslims have received or are currently awaiting...
  • King vs. Messiah vs. (not sure about Muslims yet, while having their Mohammed)
  • Do you think Abraham is for all of humanity?
 

Firenze

Active Member
Premium Member
Why should I care what the Jews think about Jesus?

Do you think that if someone now appears as Messiah, the Jews will accept him even if he says things that affect their interests? Or do you rather think that they are going to be in charge of choosing who they want to be their own Messiah?

Well, you should only care if you honestly want to know scripture. The Jews are the absolute authority on what the attributes of the Messiah will be. They wrote it down in the OT - the book that Christians NEVER question..... unless it contradicts their NT. The gospel authors were Jews who clearly knew their OT, and chose to lie about it anyway. That fact should embarrass those who willfully swallow the lies about virgin births, crucifixions, resurrections, and a divine Messiah - all nonsense invented by the gospel authors to appeal to their ignorant pagan victims. I have engaged Christians that claim hundreds of OT verses - and some claim the entire OT - are Messianic prophesy. There are actually not very many - if you bother to ask the undisputed experts. Clearly you lack the intellectual integrity to do so, and thus here you are - another unlearned shill for this now multi trillion dollar scam. :oops:

The Messiah - Key beliefs in Judaism - GCSE Religious Studies Revision - AQA - BBC Bitesize
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
@Ehav4Ever
  • Jews await the arrival of the King
  • King vs. Messiah

I will answer the questions that are relevent by giving the Torath Mosheh time of things, based on the Tanakh in Ivrith, and ancient Torah based Jewish sources. This is a repost of something stated in another thread where the question was asked about Judaism's concept of "messiah." Below, I will only be presenting what Torath Mosheh sources state on the matter of a future Dadivic king/leader who is espected to lead according to Torath Mosheh.

Note: This information only covers what can be called Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Judaism. I.e. sources that are derived from ancient Torath Mosheh sources prior to about 500 years ago found among/are common to/agreed upon by Mizrahi Jews, Sephardic Jews, Maghrebi Jews, Yemenite Jews, Hasidic Jews, Orthodox Jews, Untra-Orthodox Jews, Litvik Jews, and Hereidi Jews.

Please Note: Anything that doesn't fall into these categories are not a part of this analysis.


Thus, the common concepts in all the above Torath Mosheh groups has historically been.
  1. Jews living in Israel, as a whole, desire to return to the Torah as it was given at Mount Sinai. (Torah - written and oral)
    • Similar to what the Torah states was happening among Israelis in Egypt before Hashem approached Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses) to return and lead the way.
    • Some sources say that this may happen one of two ways. a) Jews living in Israel choose to return to ancient Jewish/Torah based practice/culture/text or b) Jews living in Israel find themselves with their backs completely against the wall w/o any other alternative and they desire to return to the Torah due to the inability to escape the situation by any other means.
  2. A proven (נביא) prophet in the Jewish community receives something from Hashem that a particular Jewish man is the leader that Hashem has chosen. (Hashem will of course only pick someone who is proven to be an actual paternal descendeant of King David through Solomon.)
    • BTW - there are Jews today living in Israel from various communities who have families histories that reach back to King David through Solomon.)
  3. A standing Mosaic Court/Sanhedrin is able to clarify the person is fit to be king as specified above.
    • Somewhere between the prophet and the Mosaic court an anointing with oil, publically for all Israelis to witness, can happen. Thus, at this point the person is considered a Davidic King (The anointing with oil has a specific reason behind it, but it is a long explaination.)
  4. Said proven halakhically Jewish Davidic descendent, who based on point 2 and 3, will receive prophecy from Hashem of what it is he is to do.
    • His prophecy will be just below the level that Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses) had.
    • Probably on a level above Yehoshua bin-Nun (Joshua).
  5. Using Torah based wisdom, prophecy, knowledge of science, economics, etc. said Davidic king will be able to lead the Israeli people and bring things back to they way they were between when Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses)/Yehoshua bin-Nun (Joshua) and Shlomo HaMelekh (Solomon) led.
    • At some point in the above process there is a return of all Jews, outside of the land of Israel, to Israel.
    • This does not proclude that some Jews will refuse to side with the Torah and instead decide to side with the nations they are found in. This is what we call in Hebrew a type of (מינות) i.e. a self-imposed decision to distance themselves from Hashem, the Torah, and the people/nation of Israel.
  6. While all of the above is happening Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews are allowed to say, "Maybe he is mashiahh." We are not allowed to say he definately is at this stage in his actions. See important note below.
Important note: Only if the above Davidic king succeeds, during his lifetime, in restoring the Torah at all levels in the land of Israel (i.e. 100% proof Hebrew Tanakh based proof that the Source of Creation supports him, government structure, social structure, Temple in Jerusalem) and brings about world peace is he actually the (משיח) Mashiahh/Davidic king who leads by Torath Mosheh. Further, said Davidic King must be married and have children with a line of sons who can continue his reign when he passes away.

If he fails at any of the above or if he dies before completeling the ENTIRE process it is known he was not (משיח) and at most was a descendant of David who made the attempt; nothing more! If that then was the case then Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews move on as before.

I hope that helps.

72002_a392ec4675b5cd560a423d36e88e0823.png
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Right, but the common saying "through one man sin entered the world" is not accurate. Through Satan sin or rebellion entered our world which was already populated anyway. Cain feared people out in the world, God agreed with him.
Sinner Satan is Not human - Romans 5:17
Human Adam did Not have to listen to Satan.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
@Ehav4Ever
  • Do you think Abraham is for all of humanity?

A better way of stating this is the following.
  1. The 7 miztvoth or the Noachide laws are for all non-Jewish humanity.
  2. Avraham ben-Terahh (who you would call Abraham) is a good example of how to navigate them.
    • According to the most ancient texts describing Avraham ben-Terahh he did not start a religion.
  3. Most of the non-Jewish world, by simple non-religious normal logic, is already following most of the 7 mitzvoth.
    • I.e. most rational humans would do them w/o ever knowing that they are the basis of Hashem "programming" into the concept of being human.
I hope that helps.
 
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