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When is a church activity "secular"?

Sapiens

Polymathematician
No not at all, play grounds are not defined by religion. If the school only allowed its member's or member's of it religion to use the park then the park would be non-secular. By not having any rules other than when the school is in session it is a public park.

Local government schools in my town have the same arrangement. During school hours the fenced in park is used by the school non-school member's are not allowed, when the school is not in session the park is open to everyone. We have tennis courts that have the same rules. Weirdly the football field and lacrosse fields are not allowed to be used by anyone but the school and yet they publicly raised money to fix them in the last 5 years.
I disagree. I an reasonably sure that the church would argue that the adults they hire to supervise the playground are "of the faith" and are ministers (ala Cheryl Perch). It is not a question of whom the playground is used by but rather what the adults there are required to believe or not believe. Do atheists, or muslims, or even satanists, have an equal shot at the job? The message that the adults involved are expected to extend to the children using the facility is at the base of the issue.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
While we are on the subject of taxes and supporting your own kids...
The bulk of my property tax goes to pay for the public schooling of other people's children. I have never attended a public school nor enrolled a kid in one. I think I have sufficiently supported other people's proclivities as it is. I don't need to be supporting the private schools teaching kids why gay people are less equal than other people.
Tom

You know that this school teaches that?
I disagree. I an reasonably sure that the church would argue that the adults they hire to supervise the playground are "of the faith" and are ministers (ala Cheryl Perch). It is not a question of whom the playground is used by but rather what the adults there are required to believe or not believe. Do atheists, or muslims, or even satanists, have an equal shot at the job? The message that the adults involved are expected to extend to the children using the facility is at the base of the issue.

As far as I can tell it is an unsupervised playground. The statement indicates that parents of residents bring their children just like public parks. The playgrounds only have supervision during scheduled school activities.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
You know that this school teaches that?


As far as I can tell it is an unsupervised playground. The statement indicates that parents of residents bring their children just like public parks. The playgrounds only have supervision during scheduled school activities.
The concept of "supervision" is not limited to playground "monitors," it includes the chain of command, at least through those who make policy, posses legal liability (as in are covered by church purchased insurance) and who write the grants in question.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
The concept of "supervision" is not limited to playground "monitors," it includes the chain of command, at least through those who make policy, posses legal liability (as in are covered by church purchased insurance) and who write the grants in question.

And one could check all those things out and I sure the Justice's would be able to if warranted. I don't know myself they may actually hire Atheists as lawyers and insurance through Muslims or Satanists or perhaps they just use the open market. Do you know that they don't or are you assuming.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Kids going to school whether it is private, religious or public is in the interest of the public. It is illegal in my state if a child between the ages of 5 and 16 is not being educated. The state set regulations private, religious and public schools must follow which include security. I doubt the state would allow them to grant public access during school hours anyway.
But is there anything relevant you care to talk about, such as the church's expectation of governmental funding for its playground?

.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
But is there anything relevant you care to talk about, such as the church's expectation of governmental funding for its playground?

.

You mean the churches request for a grant to make the playground safer for all Kids use.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Apparently, it depends on whether it's government funding or government regulation that's on the line.

The US Supreme Court is currently hearing a case about a church that was denied a grant by the state of Missouri for upgrades to the playground used by its daycare and pre-school:


Neil Gorsuch takes backseat as supreme court weighs church-state separation

Contrast this with another recent Supreme Court case - also involving a Lutheran church - where the church argued that the duties of a fourth-grade teacher made her a "religious leader" and should therefore be exempt from normal protections of employment law:



Hosanna-Tabor Evangelical Lutheran Church & School v. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission - Wikipedia

Anyone want to make the case for why a teacher at a church-run school would be "religious", but the playground at a church-run school would be "secular"?

Bonus question: if a church pre-school's playground is a "secular activity" because it's open to the public a few months a year, what other things associated with a church are "secular activities"?
If this church is exempt from paying taxes, then they should not receive even one penny from government assistance.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
You mean the churches request for a grant to make the playground safer for all Kids use.
Why are they hitting up the taxpayer, including gay people and low budget college students and people like that? Why don't they pay for it or find private money somewhere?
Don't they care about the children enough to provide a safe playground themselves?
Tom
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
Why are they hitting up the taxpayer, including gay people and low budget college students and people like that? Why don't they pay for it or find private money somewhere?
Don't they care about the children enough to provide a safe playground themselves?
Tom

Every member of the church pays taxes as well, the teachers in the school pay taxes. They not us are all members of the State indeed probably the community. The only non-tax status is the church building and the minister. So if you want to compare the church at least it members and workers are paying far more taxes than you and actually live in the community. It is a state grant so federal taxes that you pay don't matter and unless you live in the state your state taxes don't matter either.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
And one could check all those things out and I sure the Justice's would be able to if warranted. I don't know myself they may actually hire Atheists as lawyers and insurance through Muslims or Satanists or perhaps they just use the open market. Do you know that they don't or are you assuming.
What lawyers or insurance agents they retain is not an issue. What I wrote was:
I disagree. I an reasonably sure that the church would argue that the adults they hire to supervise the playground are "of the faith" and are ministers (ala Cheryl Perch). It is not a question of whom the playground is used by but rather what the adults there are required to believe or not believe. Do atheists, or muslims, or even satanists, have an equal shot at the job? The message that the adults involved are expected to extend to the children using the facility is at the base of the issue.
That seems quite clear.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Every member of the church pays taxes as well,
No ... most pay taxes. The ministers get special tax breaks and the church does not pay property tax and such.
the teachers in the school pay taxes.
I wonder of the SCOTUS would have been so liberal had all religious school teachers asked for special tax status as a result of the Cheryl Perch case.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
You mean the churches request for a grant to make the playground safer for all Kids use.
Not that it's germane, but show us where the church's request is motivated by a desire to provide a safer playground.
.
 
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bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
No ... most pay taxes. The ministers get special tax breaks and the church does not pay property tax and such.

I wonder of the SCOTUS would have been so liberal had all religious school teachers asked for special tax status as a result of the Cheryl Perch case.
@Skwim @9-10ths_Penguin @columbus

My thoughts SCOTUS ruling on The Cheryl Perch case was because she probably used her ministry status to defer tax payments on the State and Federal level. This made it so she could not be protected by the state and federal libel laws.

SCOTUS will probably rule for the church because although the playground is on church property, the people that use it are all Local, State and Federal Tax payers and there are no discriminatory rules for using it. All LBGT, Divorsee's, Married, Single, Ethnicities, Religions can all use the playground.

We shall see how SCOTUS rules
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
SCOTUS will probably rule for the church because although the playground is on church property, the people that use it are all Local, State and Federal Tax payers and there are no discriminatory rules for using it. All LBGT, Divorsee's, Married, Single, Ethnicities, Religions can all use the playground.

We shall see how SCOTUS rules
Sure there are. You even cited it in post #3: "It is only closed during school so the school has access to it." The church discriminates against those not attending its preschool/daycare. Want to use the playground during that time? Then cough up the money and enroll your little daring in our church sponsored program.

.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
This case is interesting in that just a few days ago the new Governor announced that the state would no longer be using the challenged policy that excluded from the grant program non-profit organizations if they are religious. Obviously the current Governor does not consider the challenged policy to be necessitated by the state's constitutional provision on which the policy had been justified. Nevertheless, this twist doesn't render the case moot, and the Court heard arguments Wednesday.

The question the Court certified is this:

Whether the exclusion of churches from an otherwise neutral and secular aid program violates the Free Exercise and Equal Protection Clauses when the state has no valid Establishment Clause concern.​

The Missouri Scrap Tire Grant Program provides grants for nonprofit organizations to purchase playground surfaces made from recycled tires. The program is funded by a fee charged to all buyers of new tires, and the purpose of the program is to reduce the number of old tires being dumped in landfills (and elsewhere) and to make playgrounds safer for children.

The Missouri Constitution has a provision stating that “no money shall ever be taken from the public treasury, directly or indirectly, in aid of any church, sect, or denomination of religion . . .” This provision was the basis of the state's (now rescinded) policy that disallowed such grants to religious nonprofits except under certain conditions, among these, that the “grant will be used for secular (separate from religion; not spiritual) purposes rather than for sectarian (denominational, devoted to a sect) purposes.” The preschool and daycare center of the Trinity Lutheran Church (open to all), a nonprofit organization, applied for a grant for its playground; on the state's neutral criteria, it was ranked 5th out of 44 applications, but was denied solely because it is a religious nonprofit.

Both the district and Circuit courts ruled against petitioners. The Circuit court decision suggests to me that the case was poorly argued by in the petitions submitted to these courts. The state's primary argument has been premised on Locke v. Davey (2004), in which the Court upheld Washington statutes and constitutional provisions that prohibited public scholarship aid to post-secondary students pursuing a degree in theology. However, there are important distinctions between that case and this one. The statute upheld in Locke allows students to use their scholarships to attend an accredited pervasively religious school and to take courses in devotional theology. Such religious schools that receive scholarship money could require its students to take devotional theology classes. The Court made clear that it was upholding the statute on grounds of the state's interest in not funding an “essentially religious endeavor,” namely the religious training of clergy.

Obtaining of a safer playground surface for preschoolers at Trinity Lutheran daycare center is not an “essentially religious endeavor,” and it is not for purpose of the center or the children to engage in an essentially religious endeavor. Far from it. Beyond this, there are a slew of cases in which the Court has held, such as in McDaniel v. Paty, that “government may not use religion as a basis of classification for the imposition of duties, penalties, privileges or benefits.”

According to Amy Howe, oral arguments seemed to favor the daycare center, with only Justices Ginsburg and Sotomayor leaning toward the state policy. Kagan and Breyer seemed to be skeptical of such a policy. From my understanding of the case and the case law at the moment, I believe the daycare center has the better argument, especially under the circumstances of the state having relinquished the policy.
 
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Sapiens

Polymathematician
If the daycare is truly non-sectarian in all ways I have no problem with them getting state help in improving their playground. If such is the case, and there is no commingling of funds, there is no violation of the state constitution, at lest in my view.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
Sure there are. You even cited it in post #3: "It is only closed during school so the school has access to it." The church discriminates against those not attending its preschool/daycare. Want to use the playground during that time? Then cough up the money and enroll your little daring in our church sponsored program.

.
From the preschool's website

Trinity Preschool does not discriminate in its admission or dismissal policies on the basis of race, gender, religion, ethnicity, national origin, or source of payment. We accept both MN and ND child care assistance.

You post in #30 Also indicates that it is ok that all public schools close their parks during school time and my post in #34 indicates this is probably for security reasons and mandated by the state. Unless you can prove otherwise.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Sure there are. You even cited it in post #3: "It is only closed during school so the school has access to it." The church discriminates against those not attending its preschool/daycare. Want to use the playground during that time? Then cough up the money and enroll your little daring in our church sponsored program.

.
That's not an issue of religion, but of safety. It's just common sense. Strangers are discouraged on any school grounds "during school," as a matter of course.
 
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