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When is a church activity "secular"?

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Many of the comments here are so very disconnected from this case and from the case law on which this case should be decided. If you were to read the briefs, you would see that taxes are not a relevant issue in this case. All 501(c)(3) organizations are considered charitable organizations, and are under the same tax structure. The Missouri policy singled out religious nonprofits for a special penalty in excluding them from the Scrap Tire Grant Program. Among the questions at oral arguments was how exactly to distinguish religious nonprofits from non-religious ones. It's a good question that no one here has addressed.

The case law seems to me consistent with Brennan's proposition in McDaniel, that “government may not use religion as a basis of classification for the imposition of duties, penalties, privileges or benefits.” If anyone knows of any case in which the Court held that governments may distinguish and exclude religious nonprofits from the grants that are provided to other nonprofits, please cite it.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The question is whether or not a tax exempt club has the same rights to taxpayer funded grants as the rest of us do.
No, that isn't the question in this case. The question the Court will answer is this:

Whether the exclusion of churches from an otherwise neutral and secular aid program violates the Free Exercise and Equal Protection Clauses when the state has no valid Establishment Clause concern.​
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
No, that isn't the question in this case. The question the Court will answer is this:

Whether the exclusion of churches from an otherwise neutral and secular aid program violates the Free Exercise and Equal Protection Clauses when the state has no valid Establishment Clause concern.​
It is the point that I am making.
The government already does provide enormous benefits and priveledges to religious clubs. Now they want more.
That is my point.
Tom
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The government already does provide enormous benefits and priveledges to religious clubs.
The Missouri policy did just the opposite in this case--it singled out religious nonprofits for a special exclusion from a grant program, for no rational reason (much less for a compelling governmental purpose). The stated purpose of the grant program was to reduce the number of tires in landfills and to make playgrounds safer for children. The purpose of the grant program is served perfectly by including religious nonprofits.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
The DNR policy that is challenged in this case uses religious classifications for special exclusion of certain nonprofits.
All of this unpleasantness could be eliminated. All we have to do is eliminate the property tax exemptions, the income tax exemptions, and the tax deductions for the income.
Then I would agree that churches should be treated like everyone else. It is the churches who would be squealing over equal treatment, though.
Tom
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
All we have to do is eliminate the property tax exemptions, the income tax exemptions, and the tax deductions for the income.
Go right ahead. Again, taxes are irrelevant to any issue in this case. The Missouri policy singled out a particular subset of nonprofit organizations that all operate under the same tax laws.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
taxes are irrelevant to any issue in this case.
I would be happy to do so but the religious people will make that all about religion. Even if it means utterly contradicting what they claim in this case.
Because religious people are so accustomed to priveledges that they feel entitled to them. Then want even more when it suits them.
Like here in this case.
Tom
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I would be happy to do so but the religious people will make that all about religion. Even if it means utterly contradicting what they claim in this case.
Because religious people are so accustomed to priveledges that they feel entitled to them. Then want even more when it suits them.
Like here in this case.
You probably won't be able to read and understand the facts and arguments in this case until you get over your animus toward religion.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
You probably won't be able to read and understand the facts and arguments in this case until you get over your animus toward religion.
And as long as you keep punching that strawman you won't come to grips with what I am talking about.
I don't care about religion until it impacts me. In this particular case religious people are using a double standard to get me to subsidize them. I am saying that I don't want to do that.
Tom
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
And as long as you keep punching that strawman you won't come to grips with what I am talking about.
I don't care about religion until it impacts me. In this particular case religious people are using a double standard to get me to subsidize them. I am saying that I don't want to do that.
Tom
I don't see how you could have better proven the truth of my comment that you probably won't be able to read and understand the facts and arguments of this case until you're able to get over your animus toward religion.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
I don't see how you could have better proven the truth of my comment that you probably won't be able to read and understand the facts and arguments of this case until you're able to get over your animus toward religion.
Nothing to do with religion. That's your BS.
I would feel exactly the same way if a gay only club got the tax priveledges and then wanted more from the taxpayer. I would oppose it.
Tom
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
But that isn't the real point here. Any other private club, tax exempt or not, would have the same obligations. The question is whether or not a tax exempt club has the same rights to taxpayer funded grants as the rest of us do.
Then they're being judged on their tax exempt status, rather than on the merit of whether they deserve the grant. I'm sure the criteria for the grant would not include tax exempt status.

They still have a case.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
The article in the OP says otherwise.
The article in the OP says that the church wants to be eligible for the grant, but says nothing about the church wanting to roll back any of the massive benefits and privileges they get because of their religious status. The church isn't fighting for secularism; it's fighting for even more net advantage for itself.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Nothing to do with religion. That's your BS.
I would feel exactly the same way if a gay only club got the tax priveledges and then wanted more from the taxpayer.
Obviously the case here has nothing to do with taxes. All nonprofit organizations except religious nonprofits were allowed to receive the grant.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Stadium's charge an entrance fee and earn money, There is no charge for the public to use their playground.
That's a distinction without a difference.
I disagree that withholding taxes is a subsidy.
Of course it is. It is money that the state waives it's right to and that the church does not have to pay. That is a clear form of subsidy.
If they provide a service indistinguishable from those who do pay taxes and provide the same service, then a secular government cannot refuse them.
Agreed, but the service is not indistinguishable, if nothing else, it creates good will toward the church that is part of it's mission of conversion.
In that I believe that if the church provides a service indistinguishable from others who provide the same service, then a secular government should not refuse them.
I have just falsified your belief, thus a secular government should refuse them.
It seems part of the problem here is that everybody agrees that the children's safety is important. I would expect any entity to which children are entrusted to provide both security and a safe surface. So this school, like any other, must control the usage and access some of the time.

But that isn't the real point here. Any other private club, tax exempt or not, would have the same obligations. The question is whether or not a tax exempt club has the same rights to taxpayer funded grants as the rest of us do.

I am saying that they don't. Not because they are religious, my opinion is entirely secular. I think the VFW is also a tax exempt organization, I wouldn't expect tax paying nonmembers to foot the bill for their improvements either.
Tom
The VFW would be eligible since the state constitution does not prohibit it as it clearly does in the case of the church.
Many of the comments here are so very disconnected from this case and from the case law on which this case should be decided. If you were to read the briefs, you would see that taxes are not a relevant issue in this case. All 501(c)(3) organizations are considered charitable organizations, and are under the same tax structure. The Missouri policy singled out religious nonprofits for a special penalty in excluding them from the Scrap Tire Grant Program. Among the questions at oral arguments was how exactly to distinguish religious nonprofits from non-religious ones. It's a good question that no one here has addressed.

The case law seems to me consistent with Brennan's proposition in McDaniel, that “government may not use religion as a basis of classification for the imposition of duties, penalties, privileges or benefits.” If anyone knows of any case in which the Court held that governments may distinguish and exclude religious nonprofits from the grants that are provided to other nonprofits, please cite it.
The tax issue is a bit of a red herring. Let us keep in mind that words of Daniel Webster and John Marshall in McCulloch v. Maryland.Webster, in arguing the case, said: "An unlimited power to tax involves, necessarily, a power to destroy." In his decision, Chief Justice Marshall said: "... the power of taxing ... by the States may be exercised so as to destroy it, is too obvious to be denied." and that: "the power to tax involves the power to destroy [is] not to be denied." Churches are not tax exempt so as to encourage their "good works" but rather to remove a weapon that the government could wield selectively against them. Similarly it is bad public policy to permit churches to become dependent upon public funds in any form as that will, inevitably, lead to government control.
No, that isn't the question in this case. The question the Court will answer is this:
Whether the exclusion of churches from an otherwise neutral and secular aid program violates the Free Exercise and Equal Protection Clauses when the state has no valid Establishment Clause concern.​
If that is the question, a simple issue of inclusion vs. exclusion, the answer is simple: no, as long as all similar religious organizations are similarly excluded. The clear distinction has already been made in the state constitution.
The Missouri policy did just the opposite in this case--it singled out religious nonprofits for a special exclusion from a grant program, for no rational reason (much less for a compelling governmental purpose). The stated purpose of the grant program was to reduce the number of tires in landfills and to make playgrounds safer for children. The purpose of the grant program is served perfectly by including religious nonprofits.
There we differ, there are at least three compelling governmental purposes: eliminating governmental ability to destroy religious organizations, eliminating dependence of religious organizations on the government, and not using governmental resources to advance the agenda of a religious organization.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The tax issue is a bit of a red herring. Let us keep in mind that words of Daniel Webster and John Marshall in McCulloch v. Maryland.Webster, in arguing the case, said: "An unlimited power to tax involves, necessarily, a power to destroy." In his decision, Chief Justice Marshall said: "... the power of taxing ... by the States may be exercised so as to destroy it, is too obvious to be denied." and that: "the power to tax involves the power to destroy [is] not to be denied." Churches are not tax exempt so as to encourage their "good works" but rather to remove a weapon that the government could wield selectively against them. Similarly it is bad public policy to permit churches to become dependent upon public funds in any form as that will, inevitably, lead to government control.
I don't know what point you are attempting to make here about taxes. Again, all 501(c)(3) organizations are considered charitable organizations, and are under the same tax structure. The Missouri policy singled out "religious" organizations for a special exclusion from the grant program.

If that is the question, a simple issue of inclusion vs. exclusion, the answer is simple: no, as long as all similar religious organizations are similarly excluded. The clear distinction has already been made in the state constitution.
What question are you answering "no" to?

What is the case law where the Equal Protection Clause allows states to single out religious nonprofits for special exclusion from a government grant program?

There we differ, there are at least three compelling governmental purposes: eliminating governmental ability to destroy religious organizations, eliminating dependence of religious organizations on the government, and not using governmental resources to advance the agenda of a religious organization.
What does any of this mean? How does singling out and excluding religious nonprofits "eliminate governmental ability to destroy religious organizations"? For a church-sponsored daycare/preschool to be able to get a safer playground surface does not mean that that religion is "dependent on government". And for a religious nonprofit daycare/preschool to participate in the grant program advances the specific purposes of the program, just like the participation of any other type of nonprofit in the program does--to reduce the number of tires in landfills and to make the playground safer for children to play on.
 
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