What's Wrong With Joel Osteen?

[It Aint Necessarily So]

When I was a kid I could tell the difference between neighborhood kids who wanted to be my friend from the neighborhood kids who were my friends so that they could play with my toys.

God is the same. He can tell that people that claim to love him having never met him just want something from him.

This is what God wanted for us. Not creepy, boring atheist stuff.

You've got God all wrong. God despises fawning sycophants praising Him just to get a gift. That's what He considers creepy - religious stuff. God views such people the way we all viewed Trump's cabinet kissing up to Trump.

God loves and respects the atheist for his honesty, integrity, and the fact that he asks for nothing from God.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Which Christianity do you want our of your life? I want to live my best life now.

Personally, I have no issue with Joel Osteen. I'm completely unconvinced that he is not simply a Tony Robbins type who has turned to religion rather than business as a vehicle for his messaging, but he's not forcing anyone to do anything, and he's not telling people to hate others.

Ignore the religion thing for a moment, and I would say that I distrust anyone with a simple message to the masses. Be it music, business, politics, or whatever else, my experience is that such things lack nuance, and are simply dumbed down for mass appeal, commonly for commercial gain. So maybe, buyer beware?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I think the response to success and happiness for the Christians by atheists is mockery. It just goes to show who the unhappy ones are here. At least you evaluate what I am saying and thank you for that. That's all I can ask from a non-believer.

Did you read the quote from the Dalai Lama that you linked to? :

• "Calm mind brings inner strength and self-confidence, so that's very important for good health." - Dalai Lama

That's the opposite advice to what you are getting from someone exhorting you to worship wealth. To achieve the inner serenity about which the Dalai Lama spoke, one must learn to quell such desires, not fan their fires.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Oh sure, I know about PT Barnum. I've heard so many lies here from atheists and not so much from the religious.

Since you brought it up, does God give a sucker an even break. The answer is no.

I'm a model for the prosperity Gospel and very happy with my life. If I died tomorrow, my life would still have meaning and I would have left a mark. I think Joel Osteen's video's and messages have helped in those moments where I questioned my own religion.

It's really all about the money as Joel's and others lavish, immaculate, and excessive lifestyle attest. But he does seem to sell a popular product making people want to buy it.

I'm betting those people wouldn't give you the time of day out in the street, and rest assured they wouldn't give a damn about your personal welfare. Many live in expansive mansions with private armed security patrolling the grounds like Joyce Meyer and Kenneth Copeland.

They obviously sell en masse their "help" programs of which is designed entirely for mass audiences in mind to maximize the amount of revenue they can possibly get through their online stores, church stores, and conventions.

As for the programs themselves? It's an odds game for which the effectiveness itself is statistically hit and miss, sometimes no benefit, sometimes benefit, factored in and formulated, and thus propagates it's "validity" that such things are on par with its target audience and pitched that it potentially helps everyone who buys in. I'm glad for your personal successes, but I suspect it's more through circumstances and conditions than what Joel or anyone else provides that is put up for sale.

Joel is a prosperous businessman selling Christianity, and is doing exceedingly well for himself.

People like buying into the magic pill so who am I to say just what they can and cannot spend their "love seeds" on?

For what it's worth though, just about any and every single religion does pretty much the same things. It's human nature.

 

[jaybird]

Joel sure makes a lot of money off the Lord. doesnt seem to line up so much with what Jesus and James taught.
does Joel have the CC machines in the lobby like Joyce meyer?

 

[ChristineM]

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Problems I see with prosperity theology and the idea that faith will be rewarded by material benefit from God:

- it encourages adherents to put up a facade of prosperity for the sake of their status in the church. This is often done through racking up unsustainable debt, which eventually causes huge problems for the affected families.

- it discourages charity, since it fosters the idea that people suffering from disfortune are being justly punished by God.

- the message of material prosperity is often used to lure poor people into scams.

 

[Kenny]

“Joel Osteen, controversial? How could that be? He preaches the most clear and simple gospel message a person could hear.”

Maybe it's the bacon lovers complaining.

I think anyone who is making a worldwide impact will have their critics who happen to be those who aren't really making a difference.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Problems I see with prosperity theology and the idea that faith will be rewarded by material benefit from God:

- it encourages adherents to put up a facade of prosperity for the sake of their status in the church. This is often done through racking up unsustainable debt, which eventually causes huge problems for the affected families.

- it discourages charity, since it fosters the idea that people suffering from disfortune are being justly punished by God.

- the message of material prosperity is often used to lure poor people into scams.

Pretty much all it is.

Their arguement typically is God dosent want his people poor and wanting, but what's over looked is that the theme of the Bible is focused strongly on spiritual abundance and spiritual prosperity as exemplified by New Testament narratives.

Casting out money changers, Camel through the eye of a needle, lay not treasures on earth where the moth dosent corrupt but rather lay up treasures in heaven etc..... Brushed off by their own life example.

What turned me away from the Word of Faith Church was the incredible greed and hypocrisy on display from the ground floor up. Including many of its followers right on up through its clergy. It simply wasn't a message of humility and service respective to New Testament Christianity.

I figure let it be as it is in the end. Happy or sad, Prosperity gospel lay and clergy rightfully deserve each other in more ways than one.

It helped me get rid of Christianity and as it turned out, it was a very good thing upon reflection. It shows a fundamental aspect of human nature and the artificial nature upon which Christianity thrives.

 

[Kenny]

Pretty much all it is.

Their arguement typically is God dosent want his people poor and wanting, but what's over looked is that the theme of the Bible is focused strongly on spiritual abundance and spiritual prosperity as exemplified by New Testament narratives.

Casting out money changers, Camel through the eye of a needle, lay not treasures on earth where the moth dosent corrupt but rather lay up treasures in heaven etc..... Brushed off by their own life example.

What turned me away from the Word of Faith Church was the incredible greed and hypocrisy on display from the ground floor up. Including many of its followers right on up through its clergy. It simply wasn't a message of humility and service respective to New Testament Christianity.

I figure let it be as it is in the end. Happy or sad, Prosperity gospel lay and clergy rightfully deserve each other in more ways than one.

It helped me get rid of Christianity and as it turned out, it was a very good thing upon reflection. It shows a fundamental aspect of human nature and the artificial nature upon which Christianity thrives.

IMV, yes, there are much greed and hypocrisy... in any religion or facet of marketplace. Even in the time of Jesus, his biggest problem was the same.

But, I think people tend to throw the baby out with the dirty bathwater.

Let's look at this statement that you gave, "Their argument typically is God docent want his people poor and wanting, but what's over looked is that the theme of the Bible is focused strongly on spiritual abundance and spiritual prosperity as exemplified by New Testament narratives."

Basically as I read the OT and the NT, God doesn't want his people poor or wanting. Which earthly father would?

However, yes, as you said:

It also focuses on spiritual abundance and prosperity.

Most people hold the to position that to be poor is spiritual and God wants people poor. I would be hard pressed to hold that position. Basically their narrative is to simply quote the eye of the needle making people think that rich is evil. Rich doesn't make people evil or good, the heart does.

 

[james bond]

God is the same. He can tell that people that claim to love him having never met him just want something from him.



You've got God all wrong. God despises fawning sycophants praising Him just to get a gift. That's what He considers creepy - religious stuff. God views such people the way we all viewed Trump's cabinet kissing up to Trump.

God loves and respects the atheist for his honesty, integrity, and the fact that he asks for nothing from God.

>>When I was a kid I could tell the difference between neighborhood kids who wanted to be my friend from the neighborhood kids who were my friends so that they could play with my toys.<<

Quote mining. You attribute what Rick Henderson said to me. Did you have a lot of toys as a kid? Poor baby who grew up to become a troll.

 

[james bond]

It's really all about the money as Joel's and others lavish, immaculate, and excessive lifestyle attest. But he does seem to sell a popular product making people want to buy it.

I'm betting those people wouldn't give you the time of day out in the street, and rest assured they wouldn't give a damn about your personal welfare. Many live in expansive mansions with private armed security patrolling the grounds like Joyce Meyer and Kenneth Copeland.

They obviously sell en masse their "help" programs of which is designed entirely for mass audiences in mind to maximize the amount of revenue they can possibly get through their online stores, church stores, and conventions.

As for the programs themselves? It's an odds game for which the effectiveness itself is statistically hit and miss, sometimes no benefit, sometimes benefit, factored in and formulated, and thus propagates it's "validity" that such things are on par with its target audience and pitched that it potentially helps everyone who buys in. I'm glad for your personal successes, but I suspect it's more through circumstances and conditions than what Joel or anyone else provides that is put up for sale.

Joel is a prosperous businessman selling Christianity, and is doing exceedingly well for himself.

People like buying into the magic pill so who am I to say just what they can and cannot spend their "love seeds" on?

For what it's worth though, just about any and every single religion does pretty much the same things. It's human nature.

As I mentioned, one part is being successful with money and having the ability to raise capital. The other part is how one does it. And what you mention is not what Pastor Joel advocates, so atheists are wrong again.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

As I mentioned, one part is being successful with money and having the ability to raise capital. The other part is how one does it. And what you mention is not what Pastor Joel advocates, so atheists are wrong again.

Where the heck did atheists come into it?
1) He has plenty of Christian-folk calling him out. I don't see him as being half so interesting to the atheist 'community'.
2) I'm an atheist. Did you read my post?

Maybe stick to the person you're responding to, and not taking every opportunity to over-generalise about 'atheists'.

 

[james bond]

Personally, I have no issue with Joel Osteen. I'm completely unconvinced that he is not simply a Tony Robbins type who has turned to religion rather than business as a vehicle for his messaging, but he's not forcing anyone to do anything, and he's not telling people to hate others.

Ignore the religion thing for a moment, and I would say that I distrust anyone with a simple message to the masses. Be it music, business, politics, or whatever else, my experience is that such things lack nuance, and are simply dumbed down for mass appeal, commonly for commercial gain. So maybe, buyer beware?

Not all musicians are successful. Most are poor. A few have become successful beyond their wildest dreams. Same with businesspeople, politicians and whatever field you care to name. It's about prosperity and doing the right thing. God wants us to have success through the Bible. Good people get bogged down by their past, wrong thinking, temptations, their weaknesses, their addictions, etc. The Bible helps straightens us out, but one can't just read it and see the message all the time. That's where the church leaders and Bible leaders come in. One has to pick the right ones for themselves. That's a decision one has to make.

I pray daily for friends, relatives, people I know as well as myself, in this order, for health, wealth, i.e. being successful in my work and keeping the right attitude, correcting my weaknesses such as addictions, wrong thinking etc. and improving my relationships. Every day is an affirmation. Every day is trying to keep myself aligned with God. Going to church as well as listening to Pastor Joel, at times (not regularly), helps me get there.

 

[james bond]

Where the heck did atheists come into it?
1) He has plenty of Christian-folk calling him out. I don't see him as being half so interesting to the atheist 'community'.
2) I'm an atheist. Did you read my post?

Maybe stick to the person you're responding to, and not taking every opportunity to over-generalise about 'atheists'.

Atheists come in with their weak sauce excuses. Just read what others are saying. It's not just you I'm responding to. I can't help it if they do not know or hate success. In another thread, they don't want to believe in avoiding hell. It's not only about that.

It's not just arguing against james bond. It's about being successful and prosperous in one's own life. This is part of God and Christianity, too.

 

[james bond]

BTW, here's Joel's sermon on bacon ha ha. I still have bacon once in a while, but have cut down.

 

[james bond]

Compare that to this? Which gets the message across better? It's not just about knowing the Scripture, but getting and applying the message. I'll have to watch it even more. It's not just bacon. Think about the italian cold cuts? Think about pizza toppings? Ribs? Heading towards eating more veggies.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Basically as I read the OT and the NT, God doesn't want his people poor or wanting. Which earthly father would?

No decent earthly father would, but I'm not sure the Bible describes God as being as caring as that.

Like 6:24-25:

24 “But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your comfort already.
25 “Woe to you who are well satisfied with food now, for you will be hungry.
“Woe to you who laugh now, for you will mourn and weep.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Atheists come in with their weak sauce excuses. Just read what others are saying. It's not just you I'm responding to.

It is if you say 'atheists' is my point. Then I have to post to explain that 'atheists' don't think anything. We're not a dogmatic group. If you want to think of it in a less kind light, just think of us as chickens. Hard to herd.

I can't help it if they do not know or hate success. In another thread, they don't want to believe in avoiding hell. It's not only about that.

It's not just arguing against james bond. It's about being successful and prosperous in one's own life. This is part of God and Christianity, too.

On this occasion, I'm not arguing with you.
Just asking you don't say 'atheists'. There are plenty of Christians who argue against Joel. Does it make sense to post disparagingly about 'Christians' then, or would you be more discerning?
It's no biggie, I'm not stressed, but felt I should make the point to you.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Not all musicians are successful. Most are poor. A few have become successful beyond their wildest dreams. Same with businesspeople, politicians and whatever field you care to name. It's about prosperity and doing the right thing. God wants us to have success through the Bible. Good people get bogged down by their past, wrong thinking, temptations, their weaknesses, their addictions, etc. The Bible helps straightens us out, but one can't just read it and see the message all the time. That's where the church leaders and Bible leaders come in. One has to pick the right ones for themselves. That's a decision one has to make.

No issues with that. I personally just see prosperity as a poor measure of worth, but I'm not anti-prosperity either. More in context, best case, you get to be a good person AND be prosperous.

I pray daily for friends, relatives, people I know as well as myself, in this order, for health, wealth, i.e. being successful in my work and keeping the right attitude, correcting my weaknesses such as addictions, wrong thinking etc. and improving my relationships. Every day is an affirmation. Every day is trying to keep myself aligned with God. Going to church as well as listening to Pastor Joel, at times (not regularly), helps me get there.

We would obviously differ on the specifics, but I can respect someone investing effort into a path they think is both morally correct and personally prosperous.