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What's Wrong With Joel Osteen?

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Yes, he is talking about heart conditions... not external conditions.
Repeating a claim is not the same thing as supporting it. Your interpretation seems self-serving and isn't in keeping with the actual text.

Again, yes, he is talking about heart conditions even as he talked about the rich man and the poor man Lazarus. God didn't reprove him for being rich but rather how his heart was all about himself and had no compassion for those in need.
And elsewhere, he describes people who worry about their material needs as "ye of little faith." The Bible has something for everyone on this topic, apparently.

I wouldn't agree with this. If you acquire wealth to build a hospital does not imply you value wealth but rather you understand that wealth can be used for the betterment of society.
That's a big "if," and it would only apply to those people who live modestly and squirrel away their money diligently, not to those who live lavish, expensive lifestyles.

Giving away all your wealth at the expense of helping people who need hospital care is called stupidity gone to seed.
So you agree that spending money on luxury is not what God wants?

Here you said what I just said but in other words. If you are HOLDING YOUR WEALTH FOR YOUR COMFORT without helping your neighbor, then your heart is wrong. But there is no problem with having wealth if you are considering your neighbor (as well as you decedents) in the process.
The Gospels seem to suggest that unless you give to the point of impoverishing yourself, you're doing something wrong:

41 Then he sat down opposite the offering box, and watched the crowd putting coins into it. Many rich people were throwing in large amounts. 42 And a poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, worth less than a penny. 43 He called his disciples and said to them, “I tell you the truth, this poor widow has put more into the offering box than all the others. 44 For they all gave out of their wealth. But she, out of her poverty, put in what she had to live on, everything she had.”

Yes, Jesus had no problem with an alabaster poured on him and saying "you have poor with you always but this was more necessary" paraphrased. Nor did he rebuke Zacchaeus for being rich because he did consider the poor.
Like I said: I don't approach the Bible with the assumption that it never contradicts itself. In my view, it's perfectly reasonable to accept that there are both pro- and anti-wealth passages in the Bible.

OTOH, you have a problem: you have to reconcile all those anti-wealth passages with your pro-wealth position. So far, you don't seem to be doing a very good job of that.

As you mentioned before, there are many Christians. Like the internet, you can find someone saying anything including those who say the Bible is no longer valid.

But, hey, I'm a Christian... so what do I know.

I guess if you want it to say that somehow Christians should interpret it that wealth is evil and they should stop t giving in the form of building schools, hospitals, feeding the hungry, bringing clean water etc... you can believe it as an atheist.
Nope. I'm saying that Christ commands his followers to spend what money they have on those things and not spending on comfort for themselves or even on their material needs, since they can trust in God to provide for those needs as he provides for the birds of the field, and since the comfort they experience now will be counted against them in the world to come.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
With throughout the world, do you include Scandinavia? Or are you addressing mainly places like Uganda?

I ask because I never heard if him. Or them.

Ciao

- viole
Good question... I really don't know the extent of how many countries. Africa, Asia and Latin America are a definite from my knowledge but since I didn't go to that church (living in Florida) -- I'm not in the full know of exactly how many countries they impacted.
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Repeating a claim is not the same thing as supporting it. Your interpretation seems self-serving and isn't in keeping with the actual text.
I guess who is self-serving is another matter of opinion.

I have given multiple scriptures in support not to mention how I showed how you applied it wrong.

And elsewhere, he describes people who worry about their material needs as "ye of little faith." The Bible has something for everyone on this topic, apparently.
ABSOLUTELY!! :)

Worry is another matter of the heart as is faith. Faith goes beyond what one sees in the natural and bring the supernatural into bear. But notice he didn't say "wealth" was a problem but rather worry and scurrying to try to fix it like most people do.

That's a big "if," and it would only apply to those people who live modestly and squirrel away their money diligently, not to those who live lavish, expensive lifestyles.
Hardly a big if. Most Universities and hospitals in the beginning of the creation of the United States were started by wealthy christians.

But as far as lifestyles, I know quite a few people in Honduras who would call your living an expensive lifestyle.

So you agree that spending money on luxury is not what God wants?
It is a matter of the heart. If you spend at the expense of helping your neighbor, it is wrong. Certainly your luxury is someone else's poverty level. I remember my daughter who went to Florida Tech say "I don't know how they live in Palm Bay in such small homes. For us, she was in luxury, for her she was normal living and luxury was beyond her living.

But, to be more specific and at the risk of repeating myself, there is no problem with luxury if you are still helping your neighbor.

The Gospels seem to suggest that unless you give to the point of impoverishing yourself, you're doing something wrong:
I don't agree.

Like I said: I don't approach the Bible with the assumption that it never contradicts itself. In my view, it's perfectly reasonable to accept that there are both pro- and anti-wealth passages in the Bible.

Yes... it is a matter of the heart. Anti-wealth versus deal with bad hearts. Pro-wealth verses deal with hearts.

OTOH, you have a problem: you have to reconcile all those anti-wealth passages with your pro-wealth position. So far, you don't seem to be doing a very good job of that.
Only according to an atheistic perspective who wouldn't agree with anything I say in reference to it. As I mentioned, wealth is neither bad or good, it is the heart that makes it bad or good.

Reconciled!!!

Nope. I'm saying that Christ commands his followers to spend what money they have on those things and not spending on comfort for themselves or even on their material needs, since they can trust in God to provide for those needs as he provides for the birds of the field, and since the comfort they experience now will be counted against them in the world to come.
Is that what he told Zaccheaus? Did he said to the one that had five talents of gold "get rid of 4 of them" or did he say "negotiate" and then the man made 5 more. Then the one who did nothing (poverty mentality), he took it away from him and gave it to the man who made 10.

Jesus didn't go against what the prophets wrote or what God said. Ergo, you have to balance the whole of what was said in the context of what he was trying to address and the message is, as stated by Paul and other scriptures, " 1 Tim 6:17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not high-minded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy 18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute*, willing to communicate;.

Not to get rid of wealth but rather not get high minded and trust in the riches (heart) but do good with it. use it for good works and giving
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I guess who is self-serving is another matter of opinion.
You're trying to justify wealth for yourself. That makes your position self-serving; you certainly aren't arguing against your self-interest.

I have given multiple scriptures in support not to mention how I showed how you applied it wrong.
You gave some scriptures that can be interpreted to support wealth. You didn't do anything to show how I applied anything wrong.

ABSOLUTELY!! :)

Worry is another matter of the heart as is faith. Faith goes beyond what one sees in the natural and bring the supernatural into bear. But notice he didn't say "wealth" was a problem but rather worry and scurrying to try to fix it like most people do.
I've yet to meet a business person who didn't put a lot of worry and effort into making a profit.

Hardly a big if. Most Universities and hospitals in the beginning of the creation of the United States were started by wealthy christians.
Most universities and hospitals that were started by donations were not higher priorities than their donors' comfort. They were also often used to buy prestige and power in the community as much as they were about helping people.

But as far as lifestyles, I know quite a few people in Honduras who would call your living an expensive lifestyle.
Indeed: pretty much any middle-class Christian in North America is a hypocrite when held up against the standard of the Gospels. Anything more than the shoes on your feet, the clothes on your back, and a begginh bowl signifies a lack of real trust in God and a desire for Earthly comfort.

Now, as an atheist, I think that earthly comfort is the only comfort I'm going to get, but this behaviour for a Christian is irrational.

It is a matter of the heart. If you spend at the expense of helping your neighbor, it is wrong.
ALL of your spending is at the expense of your neighbour.

Certainly your luxury is someone else's poverty level. I remember my daughter who went to Florida Tech say "I don't know how they live in Palm Bay in such small homes. For us, she was in luxury, for her she was normal living and luxury was beyond her living.
If you're in Florida, having a roof and walls is luxury. There are some places where being caught outside can kill you; unless there's a hurricane, Florida generally isn't one of them.

But, to be more specific and at the risk of repeating myself, there is no problem with luxury if you are still helping your neighbor.
And at the risk of repeating myself as well, the scriptures disagree with you:

24 “But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your comfort already.
25 “Woe to you who are well satisfied with food now, for you will be hungry.
“Woe to you who laugh now, for you will mourn and weep.

I don't agree.
With the passage, or with my interpretation of it?

How do you interpret that passage? Jesus says that the woman who is already poor and gives what she can't afford, which is a pittance, has given more than the great amounts that the wealthy had given comfortably. Jesus praises the destitute who give with no regard to their own well-being and downplays the peope who follow the model you're advocating.

Yes... it is a matter of the heart. Anti-wealth versus deal with bad hearts. Pro-wealth verses deal with hearts.
You're inserting your own meaning into the text. If Jesus had meant to say "woe to you who value wealth too much," he could have said it; instead, he said "woe to you who are rich."

Only according to an atheistic perspective who wouldn't agree with anything I say in reference to it.
I won't agree to bad arguments. My atheism has nothing to do with it.

As I mentioned, wealth is neither bad or good, it is the heart that makes it bad or good.

Reconciled!!!
I don't doubt you think so.

Is that what he told Zaccheaus?
Are you talking about the story in Luke 19? Zacchaeus promises to immediately give away half of his possessions to the poor and apparently plans to use the other half to compensate people he cheated. Where do you see any praise from Jesus for material wealth in that passage?

Did he said to the one that had five talents of gold "get rid of 4 of them" or did he say "negotiate" and then the man made 5 more. Then the one who did nothing (poverty mentality), he took it away from him and gave it to the man who made 10.
First off: it's a parable. It's not about actual money.

Second: the servant who hid the one talent was the one who hoarded his wealth.

Third: none of the servants used the talents to enrich themselves.

Jesus didn't go against what the prophets wrote or what God said. Ergo, you have to balance the whole of what was said in the context of what he was trying to address and the message is, as stated by Paul and other scriptures, " 1 Tim 6:17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not high-minded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy 18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute*, willing to communicate;.
Wait - you think Paul wrote 1 Timothy? Why?

Not get rid of wealth but not get high minded and trust in the riches (heart) but do good with it. use it for good works and giving
Did you read the rest of the chapter? Emphasis mine:

8 But if we have food and shelter, we will be satisfied with that. 9 Those who long to be rich, however, stumble into temptation and a trap and many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction.10 For the love of money is the root of all evils. Some people in reaching for it have strayed from the faith and stabbed themselves with many pains.

11 But you, as a person dedicated to God, keep away from all that. Instead pursue righteousness, godliness, faithfulness, love, endurance, and gentleness.
For the life of me, I can't see how you could look at a passage that tells you to be satisfied with just food and shelter, to not pursue wealth, and to keep away from money, and take away from this that it's telling you to be rich. Those are some very impressive mental gymnastics.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
You're trying to justify wealth for yourself. That makes your position self-serving; you certainly aren't arguing against your self-interest.
ROFL :D So, when you can't defend your position you attack the poster.

You gave some scriptures that can be interpreted to support wealth. You didn't do anything to show how I applied anything wrong.
Au contraire. I showed you how Jesus was dealing with the heart and gave you scripture on how in other cases he had no problem with wealth including the breaking of the alabaster which was worth quite a bit of money.

I've yet to meet a business person who didn't put a lot of worry and effort into making a profit.
Must be your company. I know quite of few people who put a lot of effort and don't worry.

Most universities and hospitals that were started by donations were not higher priorities than their donors' comfort. They were also often used to buy prestige and power in the community as much as they were about helping people.
Well... you are a greater person than I. I have yet to look at a person's heart to decide what was their priority or the condition of their heart. Not saying that there aren't some who buy prestige and power.

I personally know that there is a man who sold a profitable business and now has 4 orphanages in the world helping people adopt... but you know better than I.

Just makes me wonder what you are doing because of prestige and power since that is your standard of people who have money.

i prefer to believe the best until they prove me wrong. But to each his own.

Indeed: pretty much any middle-class Christian in North America is a hypocrite when held up against the standard of the Gospels. Anything more than the shoes on your feet, the clothes on your back, and a begginh bowl signifies a lack of real trust in God and a desire for Earthly comfort.
And this coming from an atheist who can see the hearts of people. It is also interesting that Christians give more percentage wise than atheists. Does that make you a bigger hypocrite using your measuring stick?

But to keep this statistical:

"To recap, Christians give 2:1 more money to charity, not counting church donations, than Atheists give to charity. Three times as many Atheists, per capita, give nothing at all." And this doesn't include what Christians give to churches!

Atheism Analyzed: Atheist Charitable Giving

Realizing that you have already made your determination and nothin I say is going to change your viewpoints (even though statistically and scripturally I have proved you wrong)

I guess it is best for us to agree to disagree.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
What an idiot the guy who is causing the disturbance is ha ha. Is he an internet atheist? Sounds like it.
Rather than illustrate Joel's inaccessibility, maybe it's simply better to change direction with a different approach than what I'm doing now.

I really have a nagging question about Joel and other people like him that happen to be openly indulgent with this extreme degree of wealth and opulance, and the desire to be completely surrounded by it.

Most people I would assume would be content and very happy with only a modest amount of wealth that adequately pays the bills, puts a roof over your head, provides food and drink on the table.

What exactly is there that Joel needs to prove to people, or even to himself, with acquiring this particular degree of excess and extreminism that goes far far beyond any reasonable amount that a person needs in order to live, have some luxuries, and eat and be reasonably happy. Especially a person who is involved with the duties as a clergy man?

Why does a person literally needs millions upon millions sitting in their bank account? A mansion that dwarfs many full size public institutions? Collections of extreme value and monetary worth?

Whats the point of it all? Well past when basic human needs and wants are adequately provided to last lifetimes over and over? The need to acquiesce for more and more without any end in sight.

Bragging rights?

Insecurity?

Paranoia?

Something else?

To show off how much God blessed you to others so to impress?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Rather than illustrate Joel's inaccessibility, maybe it's simply better to change direction with a different approach than what I'm doing now.

I really have a nagging question about Joel and other people like him that happen to be openly indulgent with this extreme degree of wealth and opulance, and the desire to be completely surrounded by it.

Most people I would assume would be content and very happy with only a modest amount of wealth that adequately pays the bills, puts a roof over your head, provides food and drink on the table.

What exactly is there that Joel needs to prove to people, or even to himself, with acquiring this particular degree of excess and extreminism that goes far far beyond any reasonable amount that a person needs in order to live, have some luxuries, and eat and be reasonably happy. Especially a person who is involved with the duties as a clergy man?

Why does a person literally needs millions upon millions sitting in their bank account? A mansion that dwarfs many full size public institutions? Collections of extreme value and monetary worth?

Whats the point of it all? Well past when basic human needs and wants are adequately provided to last lifetimes over and over? The need to acquiesce for more and more without any end in sight.

Bragging rights?

Insecurity?

Paranoia?

Something else?

To show off how much God blessed you to others so to impress?

I've had the same questions about Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Jeff Bezos et al.... they should live like the rest of us. Who cares if they worked harder, studied harder and paid their dues... they need to just get into a mid-sized Ford like the rest of us and join the crowd on the Airlines.

As a matter of fact, we should get rid of Platinum, Diamond, Gold and silver levels on airplanes too.

What do they have to prove? Insecurity? Paranoia? Something else?
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I've had the same questions about Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Jeff Bezos et al.... they should live like the rest of us. Who cares if they worked harder, studied harder and paid their dues... they need to just get into a mid-sized Ford like the rest of us and join the crowd on the Airlines.

As a matter of fact, we should get rid of Platinum, Diamond, Gold and silver levels on airplanes too.

What do they have to prove? Insecurity? Paranoia? Something else?
Probably.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
BecAuse he is a worthless dick? That happens to be independent of the bible btw.
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
This is the way I view those evangelists, Osteen, Copeland and others.

Matthew 23:1-3 (ESV Strong's) 1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, 3 so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do.

I believe what Osteen teaches, but I don't agree with him hoarding the money he makes. Jesus said to give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, not hide behind a tax break to make more money. I think all God's teachers and preachers should live modest lives, and help the world with the rest. One of God's preachers worth 70 million and there's homeless people and hungry people all over the world, shameful!

Like Kenneth Copeland, he has his own airport outside his mansion. The biggest baddest jet there is, shameful!
 

jaybird

Member
i always thought it interesting that all the super rich elite preachers trained at Oral Roberts.

not saying preachers should be dirt poor but multi million dollar mansions, private jets and luxury car collections is defiantly sending the wrong message. sure he has a big following and is getting the message out to millions, are those millions there to hear what Jesus taught, or are they there to hear how they can serve the Lord and get payed?
why do these people need private jets anyway?
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
Rather than illustrate Joel's inaccessibility, maybe it's simply better to change direction with a different approach than what I'm doing now.

I really have a nagging question about Joel and other people like him that happen to be openly indulgent with this extreme degree of wealth and opulance, and the desire to be completely surrounded by it.

Most people I would assume would be content and very happy with only a modest amount of wealth that adequately pays the bills, puts a roof over your head, provides food and drink on the table.

What exactly is there that Joel needs to prove to people, or even to himself, with acquiring this particular degree of excess and extreminism that goes far far beyond any reasonable amount that a person needs in order to live, have some luxuries, and eat and be reasonably happy. Especially a person who is involved with the duties as a clergy man?

Why does a person literally needs millions upon millions sitting in their bank account? A mansion that dwarfs many full size public institutions? Collections of extreme value and monetary worth?

Whats the point of it all? Well past when basic human needs and wants are adequately provided to last lifetimes over and over? The need to acquiesce for more and more without any end in sight.

Bragging rights?

Insecurity?

Paranoia?

Something else?

To show off how much God blessed you to others so to impress?

Oh, is that what you were trying to do?
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
Yes. I think wealthy people are typically insecure, so they require a platform of extreme excess surrounding them for no other reason than to prove something to other people.

You're entitled to your opinions, but that's not Joel Osteen. Wealth does not bring happiness. What it brings does not last. It's only temporary until you make your next purchase.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
You're entitled to your opinions, but that's not Joel Osteen. Wealth does not bring happiness. What it brings does not last. It's only temporary until you make your next purchase.
Yes. So it further begs the question is why this extreme level of excess?

Why flaunt his wealth by being openly extravagant to others?

What is he trying to prove to people?

What does he get from it all?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Yes. So it further begs the question is why this extreme level of excess?

Why flaunt his wealth by being openly extravagant to others?

What is he trying to prove to people?

What does he get from it all?
Why does what he does bother you so much?

If he writes a book and becomes an international best seller, why do you care what he does with his money? (he has written more than one)

What is your motive?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
ROFL :D So, when you can't defend your position you attack the poster.
Not an attack; just commenting and trying to figure things out. Your interpretation is... strained. It would normally make no sense at all, but I can see how you could have reason to engage in some motivated reasoning to reach the conclusions that you have.

Au contraire. I showed you how Jesus was dealing with the heart and gave you scripture on how in other cases he had no problem with wealth including the breaking of the alabaster which was worth quite a bit of money.
Asserted. Just asserted. You never even tried to show this.

Well... you are a greater person than I. I have yet to look at a person's heart to decide what was their priority or the condition of their heart. Not saying that there aren't some who buy prestige and power.
Our actions are expressions of our beliefs and values.

I personally know that there is a man who sold a profitable business and now has 4 orphanages in the world helping people adopt... but you know better than I.

Just makes me wonder what you are doing because of prestige and power since that is your standard of people who have money.
I don't love money enough to have amassed so much that a donation from me would get my name on anything.

i prefer to believe the best until they prove me wrong. But to each his own.
So your opinion of, say, Joel Osteen is just based on assumption?

And this coming from an atheist who can see the hearts of people. It is also interesting that Christians give more percentage wise than atheists. Does that make you a bigger hypocrite using your measuring stick?

But to keep this statistical:

"To recap, Christians give 2:1 more money to charity, not counting church donations, than Atheists give to charity. Three times as many Atheists, per capita, give nothing at all." And this doesn't include what Christians give to churches!

Atheism Analyzed: Atheist Charitable Giving
Be careful not to lose track of your argument in your attempt to throw shade at atheists. Remember what you're trying to respond to: I'm saying that the "prosperity Gospel" and the pursuit of wealth violates the principles that were - according to the Bible - laid down by Jesus.

It's a bit funny to respond to this with a tu quoque: responding to an atheist telling you that you aren't living up to Christ' standard by saying, effectively, "yeah? Well you don't live up to Christ's standard either!" ... as if this somehow excuses your behaviour.

Realizing that you have already made your determination and nothin I say is going to change your viewpoints (even though statistically and scripturally I have proved you wrong)
No, you really haven't. It seems your judgement of what constitutes proof is as bad as your judgement of what the Gospels say about wealth.

I guess it is best for us to agree to disagree.
You can end this discussion any time.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Not an attack; just commenting and trying to figure things out. Your interpretation is... strained. It would normally make no sense at all, but I can see how you could have reason to engage in some motivated reasoning to reach the conclusions that you have.


Asserted. Just asserted. You never even tried to show this.
Wrong on both accounts instead of just rambling on.

Let's see how honest you are and if you are open to real dialogue.

Did Jesus believe what was written by Moses as coming from the Creator and to be true?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You're entitled to your opinions, but that's not Joel Osteen. Wealth does not bring happiness. What it brings does not last. It's only temporary until you make your next purchase.

Yet he presumably keeps depositing the money he receives in his personal bank accounts. I read that his net worth is about $40 million.

He's obviously in it for the money. What does he need with that much, let alone more? Why is he still taking money from strangers? If he believes in what he's doing for its own sake, then he can do it without pay. That would tell us what really matters to him.

But he isn't doing it for free, is he? Why? He wants the money.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
Yet he presumably keeps depositing the money he receives in his personal bank accounts. I read that his net worth is about $40 million.

He's obviously in it for the money. What does he need with that much, let alone more? Why is he still taking money from strangers? If he believes in what he's doing for its own sake, then he can do it without pay. That would tell us what really matters to him.

But he isn't doing it for free, is he? Why? He wants the money.

You make a valid point.

It is important to note here that Jesus never had a dime to His name. If fact, he let the thief in the group carry the money bag. He relied totally on His faith rather than money.
 
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