What's Wrong With Joel Osteen?

[Twilight Hue]

As I mentioned, one part is being successful with money and having the ability to raise capital. The other part is how one does it. And what you mention is not what Pastor Joel advocates, so atheists are wrong again.

I doubt you will ever get five feet within the man.

 

[Kenny]

Where the heck did atheists come into it?
1) He has plenty of Christian-folk calling him out. I don't see him as being half so interesting to the atheist 'community'.
.

I'm not sure whether Christian-fold call him out is relevant. You have all types of Christians in as much as they came out of all types of lifestyles.

It is interesting that Paul, in scriptures, even said "let him that stole-steal no more". Some people came out of a stealing lifestyle and apparently hadn't completed the soul transformation that every Christian has to go through.

But I'm sue that some atheists will find him interesting but most likely not most.

 

[Kenny]

No issues with that. I personally just see prosperity as a poor measure of worth, but I'm not anti-prosperity either. More in context, best case, you get to be a good person AND be prosperous.
.

That is a true statement if I ever saw one.

And quite biblical too!

 

[Kenny]

No decent earthly father would, but I'm not sure the Bible describes God as being as caring as that.

Like 6:24-25:

I have found that He is.

Matt 19:29

You have to take Luke into the context of the message he was giving.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

>>When I was a kid I could tell the difference between neighborhood kids who wanted to be my friend from the neighborhood kids who were my friends so that they could play with my toys.<<

Quote mining. You attribute what Rick Henderson said to me. Did you have a lot of toys as a kid? Poor baby who grew up to become a troll.

How was that quote mining or trolling?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I have found that He is.

Matt 19:29

You have to take Luke into the context of the message he was giving.

It takes a special sense of irony (or hypocrisy?) to pull a verse out of context in Matthew while claiming that I'm pulling a passage in Luke out of context.

Have you actually read Matthew 19? Do you really think that the chapter that includes Jesus saying "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter Heaven" is praising material wealth?

 

[Kenny]

It takes a special sense of irony (or hypocrisy?) to pull a verse out of context in Matthew while claiming that I'm pulling a passage in Luke out of context.

I have studied the Bible for 35 years...

You took Luke out of context.

Have you actually read Matthew 19? Do you really think that the chapter that includes Jesus saying "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter Heaven" is praising material wealth?

Again... you have to read it all... in Matt 19 it also said "26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” and then continued and finished with 29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.

So, as you can tell, you are cherry picking and besides taken Luke out of context as well as Matt (if you studied it)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I have studied the Bible for 35 years...

You took Luke out of context.

In what way? What do you see as the proper context for the "four woes"?

It seems clear enough to me that in the Sermon on the Plain, Jesus condemns material wealth. Every discussion of the sermon I've read also takes this interpretation. Why do you disagree?

 

[Kenny]

In what way? What do you see as the proper context for the "four woes"?

It seems clear enough to me that in the Sermon on the Plain, Jesus condemns material wealth. Every discussion of the sermon I've read also takes this interpretation. Why do you disagree?

For many reasons starting with the Jewish scriptures for it wrong to take one scripture and eliminate precedent and all other scriptures.

1) If God condemned wealth then Deut Chapt 8 and 28 wouldn't be there and none of the Patriarchs would be saved.

2) As with the rich man, Jesus was talking about conditions of the heart, not the external condition. Riches are neither good or bad, it is an inanimate object... it is what your heart does with it that makes it good or bad.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

For many reasons starting with the Jewish scriptures for it wrong to take one scripture and eliminate precedent and all other scriptures.

1) If God condemned wealth then Deut Chapt 8 and 28 wouldn't be there and none of the Patriarchs would be saved.

I'm not approaching this with the assumption that the Bible never contradicts itself.

2) As with the rich man, Jesus was talking about conditions of the heart, not the external condition.

"Woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation" and "woe to you who are full now, for you shall hunger" sure sounds like they're talking about an external condition to me.

More to the point, he's talking about upsetting the social order and about taking wealth and comfort away from the people who have grown wealthy and comfortable under the status quo.

Riches are neither good or bad, it is an inanimate object... it is what your heart does with it that makes it good or bad.

The term "riches" is about assigning value to the thing, so if we're talking about "riches", we're talking about "the heart".

Your behaviour towards a thing is an expression of value toward it. If you work to acquire wealth, then this implies you value wealth. Even if you have wealth thrust upon you, if you take measures to keep it, this implies that you value it.

Not only that, but it implies that you value holding that wealth or spending it on your own comfort to be more important than the other things you could spend it on (e.g. relieving the suffering of your neighbour).

In Matthew 25, Jesus says "what you did to the least of these, you did to me." Every dollar you have in your pocket now represents a dollar you could have given to help starvation or homelessness, but you chose to turn away from it.

But I'm an atheist, so what do I know, right? Maybe you'll listen to what I'm saying if it comes from a Christian:

Bible Iliad | The Sermon on the Plain

 

[viole]

“Joel Osteen, controversial? How could that be? He preaches the most clear and simple gospel message a person could hear.”

Maybe it's the bacon lovers complaining.

...

"One local pastor said to me later, “I hear you are supporting the Joel Osteen Crusade.”
I said, “Yes I am. He reaches thousands of people for Jesus Christ, he’s in our city, I want to be a part of it.”
The pastor responded, “I’m not going to, I can’t go for all that positive gospel stuff.”

...

"Critics say,
“He’s shallow.” “He’s a phony.” “He’s a liar.”
“He’s not really a pastor.” “He presents an easy, feel-good gospel.”
This reminds me of being in the 8th grade."

...

"The problem is not with Joel Osteen –the problem is in the hearts of the ‘Christian critics’ (sounds like an oxymoron) and ‘the haters’ –the newest gift in the body of Christ. They speak without thinking."

WHAT’S THE PROBLEM WITH JOEL OSTEEN?

I'll repeat the important stuff. They speak without thinking. Word.

Who is Joel Osteen?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Kenny]

I'm not approaching this with the assumption that the Bible never contradicts itself.

Yes... those who don't believe in it approach it with your viewpoint.

"Woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation" and "woe to you who are full now, for you shall hunger" sure sounds like they're talking about an external condition to me.

More to the point, he's talking about upsetting the social order and about taking wealth and comfort away from the people who have grown wealthy and comfortable under the status quo.

Yes, he is talking about heart conditions... not external conditions.

The term "riches" is about assigning value to the thing, so if we're talking about "riches", we're talking about "the heart".

Again, yes, he is talking about heart conditions even as he talked about the rich man and the poor man Lazarus. God didn't reprove him for being rich but rather how his heart was all about himself and had no compassion for those in need.

Your behaviour towards a thing is an expression of value toward it. If you work to acquire wealth, then this implies you value wealth. Even if you have wealth thrust upon you, if you take measures to keep it, this implies that you value it.

I wouldn't agree with this. If you acquire wealth to build a hospital does not imply you value wealth but rather you understand that wealth can be used for the betterment of society. Giving away all your wealth at the expense of helping people who need hospital care is called stupidity gone to seed.

Not only that, but it implies that you value holding that wealth or spending it on your own comfort to be more important than the other things you could spend it on (e.g. relieving the suffering of your neighbour).

Here you said what I just said but in other words. If you are HOLDING YOUR WEALTH FOR YOUR COMFORT without helping your neighbor, then your heart is wrong. But there is no problem with having wealth if you are considering your neighbor (as well as you decedents) in the process.

In Matthew 25, Jesus says "what you did to the least of these, you did to me." Every dollar you have in your pocket now represents a dollar you could have given to help starvation or homelessness, but you chose to turn away from it.

Yes, Jesus had no problem with an alabaster poured on him and saying "you have poor with you always but this was more necessary" paraphrased. Nor did he rebuke Zacchaeus for being rich because he did consider the poor.

But I'm an atheist, so what do I know, right? Maybe you'll listen to what I'm saying if it comes from a Christian:

Bible Iliad | The Sermon on the Plain

As you mentioned before, there are many Christians. Like the internet, you can find someone saying anything including those who say the Bible is no longer valid.

But, hey, I'm a Christian... so what do I know.

I guess if you want it to say that somehow Christians should interpret it that wealth is evil and they should stop t giving in the form of building schools, hospitals, feeding the hungry, bringing clean water etc... you can believe it as an atheist and even as a Christian.

It is always interesting to me that those who preach about it being "evil" still receive offering and a paycheck (a dichotomy of positions)

 

[james bond]

Who is Joel Osteen?

Ciao

- viole

Joel Osteen is the founder and senior pastor at Lakewood church is Houston, TX. It is a superchurch that hosts 52,000 members weekly, 16,800 at a remodeled former basketball arena and the rest via televised weekly services broadcast on Trinity Broadcasting Network and Daystar Television Network. Watch the short video in post #36 to see the size of congregation.

Joel Osteen's Lakewood Church Ranked America's Largest Megachurch With 52,000 Weekly Attendance

 

[james bond]

I doubt you will ever get five feet within the man.

What an idiot the guy who is causing the disturbance is ha ha. Is he an internet atheist? Sounds like it.

 

[Kenny]

Joel Osteen is the founder and senior pastor at Lakewood church is Houston, TX.

Actually, John Osteen was the founder (his dad) of whom I had the pleasure of hearing him preach. A man full of love and compassions making difference throughout the world both in word as in deeds.

 

[viole]

Joel Osteen is the founder and senior pastor at Lakewood church is Houston, TX. It is a superchurch that hosts 52,000 members weekly, 16,800 at a remodeled former basketball arena and the rest via televised weekly services broadcast on Trinity Broadcasting Network and Daystar Television Network. Watch the short video in post #36 to see the size of congregation.

Joel Osteen's Lakewood Church Ranked America's Largest Megachurch With 52,000 Weekly Attendance

Wow, that competes with weekly attendance to some club's soccer matches over here.

Hope springs eternal, as it seems.

Ciao

- viole

 

[james bond]

Let's get down to brass tacks.

"Lakewood Church believes that the entire Bible is inspired by God, and the church bases its teachings on this belief. The church also holds in account the belief in the Trinity, as well as the recognition of the death of Christ on the cross and resurrection.

From the commands found in the Bible, the church practices the following:

• Salvation: Each service offers an Altar call at the end in order for people to accept Christ as Lord and Savior.
• Water Baptism: The church believes the Bible asks for this as a symbol and a testimony to faith in Jesus Christ – in his cleansing power through his shedding of blood on the cross for us. Baptism is practiced every Saturday night in the church's Chapel.
• Communion: The church believes the Bible asks for this act of remembering what Jesus did on the cross. It is offered once a month.
• Growing Relationship with Jesus Christ: Lakewood believes that every believer should be in a growing relationship with Jesus by obeying God's Word, yielding to the Holy Spirit and by being conformed to the image of Christ.[11]

Lakewood Church is known for its Word of Faith teaching.[4]"

 

[james bond]

Actually, John Osteen was the founder (his dad) of whom I had the pleasure of hearing him preach. A man full of love and compassions making difference throughout the world both in word as in deeds.

I stand corrected. Awesome that you were able to hear his dad.

 

[Kenny]

Let's get down to brass tacks.

"Lakewood Church believes that the entire Bible is inspired by God, and the church bases its teachings on this belief. The church also holds in account the belief in the Trinity, as well as the recognition of the death of Christ on the cross and resurrection.

From the commands found in the Bible, the church practices the following:

• Salvation: Each service offers an Altar call at the end in order for people to accept Christ as Lord and Savior.
• Water Baptism: The church believes the Bible asks for this as a symbol and a testimony to faith in Jesus Christ – in his cleansing power through his shedding of blood on the cross for us. Baptism is practiced every Saturday night in the church's Chapel.
• Communion: The church believes the Bible asks for this act of remembering what Jesus did on the cross. It is offered once a month.
• Growing Relationship with Jesus Christ: Lakewood believes that every believer should be in a growing relationship with Jesus by obeying God's Word, yielding to the Holy Spirit and by being conformed to the image of Christ.[11]

Lakewood Church is known for its Word of Faith teaching.[4]"

I find them very balanced in their teachings.

 

[viole]

Actually, John Osteen was the founder (his dad) of whom I had the pleasure of hearing him preach. A man full of love and compassions making difference throughout the world both in word as in deeds.

With throughout the world, do you include Scandinavia? Or are you addressing mainly places like Uganda?

I ask because I never heard if him. Or them.

Ciao

- viole