What's the difference between magic tricks and miracles?

[MJFlores]

Many theists believe in miracles but not in magic. Most atheists I've talked to dismiss both miracles and magic. It seems to be that there's a close relationship between the two. Magic is defined as "the power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces." A miracle is said to be "a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency."

To me, the difference is primarily in that, where magic is concerned, we recognize that the magician is performing a trick by sleight of hand or some such thing. We know that it's explainable, even if we can't figure out how he does it. When we describe something as a miracle, we simply say that there is no explanation for what happened. The theist will give credit to God and the atheist will say that there is a scientific reason behind it, even if we can't understand what it is.

In my opinion, magic is something certain humans can perform that appears to baffle other humans. Miracles are something God can perform that appears to baffle all humans. Other than that, there is really no difference. Neither one breaks any laws of nature, but both require us to recognize that there are events in life for which we have no explanations. This is not due to the fact that they cannot be explained. We just haven't found the answers to them yet.

Magic tricks require illusions and a gullible audience to work.

True Miracles require non-doubting prayers, faith and the mercy of God to work.
Fake Miracles require stuntmen and a lot of showmanship

 

[Subduction Zone]

Magic tricks require illusions and a gullible audience to work.

True Miracles require non-doubting prayers, faith and the mercy of God to work.
Fake Miracles require stuntmen and a lot of showmanship

LOL, they are both examples of a gullible audience.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

A benevolent, indeed loving, God who's omnipotent and therefore can effortlessly do anything [he] wishes nonetheless always gives amputees the middle finger for [his] own strategic benefit?

No, much as Epicurus is said to have said, that proposition rules out God's benevolence and love, or if we insist on those, rules out God's omnipotence. It's ridiculous to invent excuses for a loving God's failure to do the loving thing by discriminating against a particular category. If God is our moral example, then that would make discrimination on selfish grounds perfectly moral, a proposition which is a rejection of civility and decency, let alone equity and love.

I do not believe God discriminates. Nor do I believe he ever intervenes because we ask him to. He did not even intervene on Jesus behalf, at the crucfiction.
Asking things of God is fairly pointless.
However unexplained things do happen.
when it comes to regrowing missing body parts why did God give that ability to a number of crustations and amphibians and fish And not us?

 

[blü 2]

I do not believe God discriminates. Nor do I believe he ever intervenes because we ask him to. He did not even intervene on Jesus behalf, at the crucfiction.

But [he] wasn't meant to. It's clear from the gospels that from the start his mission was intended to end in his death. His conduct before Pilate and his Gethsemane scenes further show him maneuvering to make sure that happens. (Just how it could be beneficial is never made clear, however.)

Asking things of God is fairly pointless.

Except perhaps as a personal morale booster, or as a blame-shifting excuse, wholly pointless.

However unexplained things do happen.

But that tells us no more than that unexplained things happen. It doesn't imply that 'supernatural being' is a meaningful term, and it doesn't imply that any such things exist.

when it comes to regrowing missing body parts why did God give that ability to a number of crustations and amphibians and fish And not us?

And lizards. But that's a different subject to magic / miracles.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

But [he] wasn't meant to. It's clear from the gospels that from the start his mission was intended to end in his death. His conduct before Pilate and his Gethsemane scenes further show him maneuvering to make sure that happens. (Just how it could be beneficial is never made clear, however.)
Except perhaps as a personal morale booster, or as a blame-shifting excuse, wholly pointless.
But that tells us no more than that unexplained things happen. It doesn't imply that 'supernatural being' is a meaningful term, and it doesn't imply that any such things exist.
And lizards. But that's a different subject to magic / miracles.

Reptiles such as Lizards descended from Amphibians and some retain the ability to regrow body parts.
We descended from an earlier offshoot and never gained that ability. but it does not mean we could not adapt by genetic manipulation.

 

[blü 2]

Reptiles such as Lizards descended from Amphibians and some retain the ability to regrow body parts.
We descended from an earlier offshoot and never gained that ability. but it does not mean we could not adapt by genetic manipulation.

It does mean, though, that there's no important distinction between miracles and Harry Potter magic, and not even one authenticated example of either.

Which is a pity, when you think about it. Imagine the reduction to air pollution if we all got around using pixie dust.

 

[Fool]

Many theists believe in miracles but not in magic. Most atheists I've talked to dismiss both miracles and magic. It seems to be that there's a close relationship between the two. Magic is defined as "the power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces." A miracle is said to be "a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency."

To me, the difference is primarily in that, where magic is concerned, we recognize that the magician is performing a trick by sleight of hand or some such thing. We know that it's explainable, even if we can't figure out how he does it. When we describe something as a miracle, we simply say that there is no explanation for what happened. The theist will give credit to God and the atheist will say that there is a scientific reason behind it, even if we can't understand what it is.

In my opinion, magic is something certain humans can perform that appears to baffle other humans. Miracles are something God can perform that appears to baffle all humans. Other than that, there is really no difference. Neither one breaks any laws of nature, but both require us to recognize that there are events in life for which we have no explanations. This is not due to the fact that they cannot be explained. We just haven't found the answers to them yet.

a miracle is something evokes astonishment, wonder.


miracle | Search Online Etymology Dictionary


magic is something that takes natural forces and manipulates them. like using sonic weapons for crowd control


magic | Search Online Etymology Dictionary

 

[oldbadger]

They weren't slaves in Egypt. Its a teaching narrative about forgiveness, deliverance and redemption..

The scripture says 600,000 men.. which doesn't include wives, children, parents.. and 20 goats per family at a minimum.

There are NO tsunamis in the Red Sea.

Sinai had Canaanite towns that paid tribute to pharaoh and were guarded by Egyptian garrisons.

Sinai had no water and pasture.

Its a children's story.

You don't know the difference between a tsunami and a LAT tidal bore. The significance of the date has eluded you, it seems.

And if you trawled your figures from scripture that you deny, then you can't believe in your own proposal

Where did you get your figures from?

 

[sooda]

You don't know the difference between a tsunami and a LAT tidal bore. The significance of the date has eluded you, it seems.

And if you trawled your figures from scripture that you deny, then you can't believe in your own proposal

Where did you get your figures from?

LAT Tidal bore..????? The Red Sea is not a river..

Exodus 12:37 The Israelites journeyed from Rameses to ...
https://biblehub.com/exodus/12-37.htm
The Exodus Begins … 36 And the LORD gave the people such favor in the sight of the Egyptians that they granted their request. In this way they plundered the Egyptians. 37 The Israelites journeyed from Rameses to Succoth with about 600,000 men on foot, besides women and children. 38 And a mixed multitude also went up with them, along with great droves of livestock, both flocks and herds.…

 

[oldbadger]

They weren't slaves in Egypt. Its a teaching narrative about forgiveness, deliverance and redemption..

The scripture says 600,000 men.. which doesn't include wives, children, parents.. and 20 goats per family at a minimum.

There are NO tsunamis in the Red Sea.

Sinai had Canaanite towns that paid tribute to pharaoh and were guarded by Egyptian garrisons.

Sinai had no water and pasture.

Its a children's story.

You don't understand. The Exodus was passed along by oral tradition until finally written down.

And you keep pasting up reports that you don't believe in order to make a debate against the whole incident.

You don't seem to like k the date of the Passover as anything but coincidence, when it was a crucial date.

You write off the fact of LAT tidal surges and possible weather patterns when there was definitely a tidal surge during the Exodus. How do we know? We know because we understand how the moon affects the tides.

And tidal bores don't happen on rivers, sooda, they happen on estuaries, tidal estuaries....

 

[sooda]

You don't understand. The Exodus was passed along by oral tradition until finally written down.

And you keep pasting up reports that you don't believe in order to make a debate against the whole incident.

You don't seem to like k the date of the Passover as anything but coincidence, when it was a crucial date.

You write off the fact of LAT tidal surges and possible weather patterns when there was definitely a tidal surge during the Exodus. How do we know? We know because we understand how the moon affects the tides.

And tidal bores don't happen on rivers, sooda, they happen on estuaries, tidal estuaries....

Not in the Red Sea. Look at a map.

tidal bore | National Geographic Society
Resource Library | National Geographic Societytidal-bore
A tidal bore occurs along a coast where a river empties into an ocean or sea. A tidal bore is a strong tide that pushes up the river, against the current. A tidal bore is a true tidal wave. A tidal bore is a surge. A surge is a sudden change in depth. When a channel suddenly gets deeper,

The Exodus story was not written down for 800 years after the death of Moses. Its completely fantastic.. Look at the Sinai peninsula and you'll know why.

 

[1213]

Many theists believe in miracles but not in magic. Most atheists I've talked to dismiss both miracles and magic. ....

It depends on what magic is. If it is like witchcraft, in some way it may be true, but in Biblical point of view it is not good and therefore Christians should avoid it. Miracle is only on unexpected and improbable thing. For example, that we and life exist can be seen as one kind of miracle.

 

[paarsurrey]

What's the difference between magic tricks and miracles?

"Some laws are known to man and some other overriding laws also exist but are unknown to man. So, a miracle appears to be a miracle to the ordinary person when he knows only the superficial laws known to people of his time, but he does not know the other set of overriding laws which exist as laws without breaking the other set of laws.

I hope one understands that a miracle does not break any law. A miracle is the operation of an unseen law."
Right, please?

The greatest miracle for example.
Quran is the greatest miracle ever-happened:

1. Its authorship by G-d.
2. Its being in a wonderful system
3. Its being published in the whole world verbally as well as in written form
4. Its remaining pristine and secure in the original form in verbal as well as written form in the Arabic text
5. Its language is a living language
6. Its being dynamic, like an operating manual.
7. Its being always fresh and reformed with in-built reformers.
8. Etc, etc, and etc.................

Please

Regards

 

[oldbadger]

Not in the Red Sea. Look at a map.

That's your next mistake.
You need to realise just how much coastal features have changed in past millenia. A typical example exists where I live.

The Red Sea referred to a Sea of Reeds through which the Israelites left Egypt. A large marshy area, I'd guess, that only the Israelites knew well.

They knew it very well, which is why they left exactly when they did.

By the way, on what date do you think they went out?

A tidal bore is a true tidal wave. A tidal bore is a surge. A surge is a sudden change in depth. When a channel suddenly gets deeper,

I've highlighted the key word in the above copy-paste of yours.

Not only was the time chosen for the departure a perfect choice, (strange if it was all fiction?) but the scriptures tell us more. I long suspected that a storm surge pushing a Spring tide could easily create a 'bore' or very large 'wave' such as we have experienced where I live, but it's actually referred to!!

Here...... read it yourself:-
Another possible development of this root is the word suphah, meaning "storm-wind"...The meanings "end" and "storm-wind" would have constituted nice puns on the event that took place at the Yam Suph.[5]
--------------
More conjecturally, it has also been suggested that suph may be related to the Hebrew suphah ("storm") or soph ("end"), referring to the events of the Reed/Red Sea escape itself:
---------------

The Exodus story was not written down for 800 years after the death of Moses. Its completely fantastic.. Look at the Sinai peninsula and you'll know why.

You don't take in my posts. I already told you that the Exodus incident was passed down by Oral Tradition until eventually it was written.

Now......... All of the above is 100% absolutely spot-on for the story to be grounded on a true incident.

The date is perfect, the words used, the conditions, the fact that Israelites would have worked the marshes and reeds, etc etc.

You just don't know enough about LAT and HAT tides, Moon phase effects, Storm surges, etc etc.........

I do.......... Old 'Pops' here got educated and qualified for this stuff a long time ago, maybe before you were born?

 

[sooda]

You don't know the difference between a tsunami and a LAT tidal bore. The significance of the date has eluded you, it seems.

And if you trawled your figures from scripture that you deny, then you can't believe in your own proposal

Where did you get your figures from?

The numbers come from scripture.

 

[sooda]

That's your next mistake.
You need to realise just how much coastal features have changed in past millenia. A typical example exists where I live.

The Red Sea referred to a Sea of Reeds through which the Israelites left Egypt. A large marshy area, I'd guess, that only the Israelites knew well.

They knew it very well, which is why they left exactly when they did.

By the way, on what date do you think they went out?


I've highlighted the key word in the above copy-paste of yours.

Not only was the time chosen for the departure a perfect choice, (strange if it was all fiction?) but the scriptures tell us more. I long suspected that a storm surge pushing a Spring tide could easily create a 'bore' or very large 'wave' such as we have experienced where I live, but it's actually referred to!!

Here...... read it yourself:-
Another possible development of this root is the word suphah, meaning "storm-wind"...The meanings "end" and "storm-wind" would have constituted nice puns on the event that took place at the Yam Suph.[5]
--------------
More conjecturally, it has also been suggested that suph may be related to the Hebrew suphah ("storm") or soph ("end"), referring to the events of the Reed/Red Sea escape itself:
---------------


You don't take in my posts. I already told you that the Exodus incident was passed down by Oral Tradition until eventually it was written.

Now......... All of the above is 100% absolutely spot-on for the story to be grounded on a true incident.

The date is perfect, the words used, the conditions, the fact that Israelites would have worked the marshes and reeds, etc etc.

You just don't know enough about LAT and HAT tides, Moon phase effects, Storm surges, etc etc.........

I do.......... Old 'Pops' here got educated and qualified for this stuff a long time ago, maybe before you were born?

Yam was a Canaanite God and Suf just means Sea..

If they crossed the Red Sea they would have had to rappel down over a thousand feet to get to the sea bed and up the other side. Its an important story, but its not history. Besides, they could hardly escape Egypt by moving into Egyptian Sinai.

 

[oldbadger]

The numbers come from scripture.

Which you have called fairy tales!
Now that's a new kind of debating......... argument from fairyland.

I'm just debating about an incident from a people's folklore, very strongly supported by the here and now.

On what date do you think the Exodus occurred (in your fairy tale)?

 

[oldbadger]

Yam was a Canaanite God and Suf just means Sea..

If they crossed the Red Sea they would have had to rappel down over a thousand feet to get to the sea bed and up the other side. Its an important story, but its not history. Besides, they could hardly escape Egypt by moving into Egyptian Sinai.

It was the Reed Sea, or the Sea of Reeds. A great tidal marsh which the Israelites knew well.

You don't have to believe it. You can't get to grips with that key date, either. I reckon that they knew the chance was coming, probably because they witnessed a great storm which blew for a couple of days from the South East, just as the storm translation is proposed by some historians.

Everything clicks together so well that the mythers just look sad with their rejections.

 

[sooda]

Which you have called fairy tales!
Now that's a new kind of debating......... argument from fairyland.

I'm just debating about an incident from a people's folklore, very strongly supported by the here and now.

On what date do you think the Exodus occurred (in your fairy tale)?

Most scholars try to set the dates at 1200 BC or 1400 BC or 1500 BC.. but there are others who want to say 2400 BC and extend the Joshua years to 300 years. There's just NO evidence of the Exodus. No one seriously questions it any more.

What do you mean "storm translations"?

 

[sooda]

It was the Reed Sea, or the Sea of Reeds. A great tidal marsh which the Israelites knew well.

You don't have to believe it. You can't get to grips with that key date, either. I reckon that they knew the chance was coming, probably because they witnessed a great storm which blew for a couple of days from the South East, just as the storm translation is proposed by some historians.

Everything clicks together so well that the mythers just look sad with their rejections.

Is this "storm translation" from another Bible, or what?