What's the difference between magic tricks and miracles?

[oldbadger]

There were 9 layers of Jericho dating back to the Natufians. but at the time of the Exodus it had been abandoned.

Got a citation for that?
I don't mind either way, but the Jericho story seems possible to me. If a mining operation was undertaken then to march around the walls making a song and dance would have been a clever distraction.

I spent about 90 seconds in reference before I found this........ it doesn't crush the story at all:-
'In the 19th and 20th centuries several organized excavations were carried out at the site. The most notable were those of the British archaeologists John Garstang (1930–1936) and Kathleen Kenyon (1952–1958). Garstang found fallen city walls, burned stores of grain and evidence of destruction of the city by fire, all of which he dated to about 1400 BC—right in line with the Biblical chronology of the city’s destruction'

The Exodus is myth as is Genesis and Numbers. Solomon's "empire" wasn't grand or glorious.. He had no copper mines.. those belonged to Egypt and then to the Canaanites...

Which stories do you believe?

I wouldn't write off all of those three books, although I haven't read them in yonks.

I like the Exodus story and it's perfectly possible. What's wrong with the exodus story? Exaggeration doesn't crush history or we'd be writing off the entire First World war...

I believe most of G-Mark, with some additions and exaggerations edited out.

 

[oldbadger]

Yes, Joshua could have defeated Jericho. That part would be history. That simply marching around caused the crash would be myth. When magic becomes part of a story it is myth and not propaganda.

The marching around and making noise could have been very important if a mining operation was being undertaken. To build that in to a miracle would have been quite effective propaganda.

The 'Our God can bash you up good' stuff was probably propaganda.

Years ago I watched a film about a US submarine that captured the 1st German enigma encoder, thus shortening the war. It's harmless enough 'fun' but in a hundred years folks could paste the film up as proof of such an event. But such an incident did actually occur, but with a different county's sub, that's all. Propaganda and hyperbole shouldn't destroy any story whole with careful research.

 

[sooda]

Got a citation for that?
I don't mind either way, but the Jericho story seems possible to me. If a mining operation was undertaken then to march around the walls making a song and dance would have been a clever distraction.

I spent about 90 seconds in reference before I found this........ it doesn't crush the story at all:-
'In the 19th and 20th centuries several organized excavations were carried out at the site. The most notable were those of the British archaeologists John Garstang (1930–1936) and Kathleen Kenyon (1952–1958). Garstang found fallen city walls, burned stores of grain and evidence of destruction of the city by fire, all of which he dated to about 1400 BC—right in line with the Biblical chronology of the city’s destruction'


I wouldn't write off all of those three books, although I haven't read them in yonks.

I like the Exodus story and it's perfectly possible. What's wrong with the exodus story? Exaggeration doesn't crush history or we'd be writing off the entire First World war...

I believe most of G-Mark, with some additions and exaggerations edited out.

2 million people with their herds fled to Egyptian Sinai and Egyptian Canaan?? Sinai is only 135 miles across at its widest point and it has no water or pasture.

 

[sooda]

Got a citation for that?
I don't mind either way, but the Jericho story seems possible to me. If a mining operation was undertaken then to march around the walls making a song and dance would have been a clever distraction.

I spent about 90 seconds in reference before I found this........ it doesn't crush the story at all:-
'In the 19th and 20th centuries several organized excavations were carried out at the site. The most notable were those of the British archaeologists John Garstang (1930–1936) and Kathleen Kenyon (1952–1958). Garstang found fallen city walls, burned stores of grain and evidence of destruction of the city by fire, all of which he dated to about 1400 BC—right in line with the Biblical chronology of the city’s destruction'


I wouldn't write off all of those three books, although I haven't read them in yonks.

I like the Exodus story and it's perfectly possible. What's wrong with the exodus story? Exaggeration doesn't crush history or we'd be writing off the entire First World war...

I believe most of G-Mark, with some additions and exaggerations edited out.

Were the Natufians in Jericho?

Natufians founded Jericho which may be the oldest city in the world. Some evidence suggests deliberate cultivation of cereals, specifically rye, by the Natufian culture, at Tell Abu Hureyra, the site of earliest evidence of agriculture in the world.
Natufian culture - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natufian_culture

 

[oldbadger]

2 million people with their herds fled to Egyptian Sinai and Egyptian Canaan?? Sinai is only 135 miles across at its widest point and it has no water or pasture.

Don't chuck the baby out with the bathwater.
Catholic, Protestant and Jewish writers put the numbers at much lower.

The largest number that could get out through the Reed sea on a LAT (Lowest astronomical Tide) which fell on Nisan 14 would be the number. So the whole lot had to get through in about 4 hours, I reckon.

With a SW storm blowing a spring flood up to a tidal bore then there would have been a pretty good wall of water to deluge a following force not many hours later.

Of course, only the Israelites knew the Reed Sea ..... no self respecting Egyptian would have gone to such an infested place. The slaves would have farmed the papyrus beds, and fished, etc. Threy new the wades and channels, I reckon.

So.... how many people could cross a big tidal marsh in about four hours? I'm not sure.

 

[oldbadger]

Were the Natufians in Jericho?

Don't know...........

 

[sooda]

Don't know...........

Dr. Amos Nur, a Stanford University geophysicist, has written: ''The combination, the destruction of Jericho and the stoppage of the Jordan, is so typical of earthquakes in this region that only little doubt can be left as to the reality of such events in Joshua's time.''

Like many scholars, Dr. Ephraim Isaac, director of the Institute of Semitic Studies in Princeton, N.J., said attempts to establish the historical reality of biblical stories were irresistible, and sometimes successful ''There is no doubt that a good deal of information found in the Bible has a grain of truth in it,'' Dr. Isaac said. ''However, we should be careful in trying to correlate biblical stories and archeological data.''

Believers Score in Battle Over the Battle of Jericho

Don't ever clutter you mind up with an education, pops.

 

[oldbadger]

Dr. Amos Nur, a Stanford University geophysicist, has written: ''The combination, the destruction of Jericho and the stoppage of the Jordan, is so typical of earthquakes in this region that only little doubt can be left as to the reality of such events in Joshua's time.''

Not bad...... that fits in alright with the balance of probabilities.
No problem.

Like many scholars, Dr. Ephraim Isaac, director of the Institute of Semitic Studies in Princeton, N.J., said attempts to establish the historical reality of biblical stories were irresistible, and sometimes successful ''There is no doubt that a good deal of information found in the Bible has a grain of truth in it,'' Dr. Isaac said. ''However, we should be careful in trying to correlate biblical stories and archeological data.''

No problem with that, either.
But it doesn't help your claims much.

Don't ever clutter you mind up with an education, pops.

Oh yes?
So what's your education?
I'm interested......... what qualifications have you?

 

[sooda]

Don't chuck the baby out with the bathwater.
Catholic, Protestant and Jewish writers put the numbers at much lower.

The largest number that could get out through the Reed sea on a LAT (Lowest astronomical Tide) which fell on Nisan 14 would be the number. So the whole lot had to get through in about 4 hours, I reckon.

With a SW storm blowing a spring flood up to a tidal bore then there would have been a pretty good wall of water to deluge a following force not many hours later.

Of course, only the Israelites knew the Reed Sea ..... no self respecting Egyptian would have gone to such an infested place. The slaves would have farmed the papyrus beds, and fished, etc. Threy new the wades and channels, I reckon.

So.... how many people could cross a big tidal marsh in about four hours? I'm not sure.

They weren't slaves in Egypt. Its a teaching narrative about forgiveness, deliverance and redemption..

The scripture says 600,000 men.. which doesn't include wives, children, parents.. and 20 goats per family at a minimum.

There are NO tsunamis in the Red Sea.

Sinai had Canaanite towns that paid tribute to pharaoh and were guarded by Egyptian garrisons.

Sinai had no water and pasture.

Its a children's story.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

They weren't slaves in Egypt. Its a teaching narrative about forgiveness, deliverance and redemption..

The scripture says 600,000 men.. which doesn't include wives, children, parents.. and 20 goats per family at a minimum.

There are NO tsunamis in the Red Sea.

Sinai had Canaanite towns that paid tribute to pharaoh and were guarded by Egyptian garrisons.

Sinai had no water and pasture.

Its a children's story.

Vast areas of what is desert and sand in Egypt now, were once fertile lands. the climate has changed drastically.

 

[sooda]

Vast areas of what is desert and sand in Egypt now, were once fertile lands. the climate has changed drastically.

Yeah, about 14,000 years ago......

 

[Subduction Zone]

Vast areas of what is desert and sand in Egypt now, were once fertile lands. the climate has changed drastically.

And what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yeah, about 14,000 years ago......

Please at least put it in a spoiler alert I wonder if he knows what happened about 14,000 years ago.

 

[sooda]

Please at least put it in a spoiler alert I wonder if he knows what happened about 14,000 years ago.

Well, 14,000 years ago Arabia was a well-watered savanna with shallow lakes and streams. Of course this was thousands and thousands of years before Adam and Eve. Climate change drove the Arabs north out of Arabia in waves to Mesopotamia and the Levant..They have found evidence of Ostrich and Mammoths..

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Even in Roman times Egypt was the bread basket of the empire. The change to desert was slow and not an even one. the Sahara is still growing to this day. Little more than the Nile and its delta is still extremely fertile.

 

[sooda]

Even in Roman times Egypt was the bread basket of the empire. The change to desert was slow and not an even one. the Sahara is still growing to this day. Little more than the Nile and its delta is still extremely fertile.

Yes .. Along the Nile.. The Delta is fertile.. The Sahara has no water to speak of.

What Is the Average Yearly Rainfall in the Sahara Desert ...
https://sciencing.com/average-yearly-rainfall-sahara-desert...
Apr 24, 2017 · The Sahara is one of the most arid locations on Earth but is not uniformly so. The central part of the Sahara, known as the Libyan Desert, is the driest, receiving an average of less than 1 inch of rain per year. Other parts of the Sahara receive an average of up to 4 inches of annual rainfall.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well, 14,000 years ago Arabia was a well-watered savanna with shallow lakes and streams. Of course this was thousands and thousands of years before Adam and Eve. Climate change drove the Arabs north out of Arabia in waves to Mesopotamia and the Levant..They have found evidence of Ostrich and Mammoths..

Do you have an article that supports that? When I looked it appears that last time it was like that was bout 55,000 years ago:

Arabia was once a lush paradise of grass and woodlands

 

[sooda]

Do you have an article that supports that? When I looked it appears that last time it was like that was bout 55,000 years ago:

Arabia was once a lush paradise of grass and woodlands

Let me see what I can find. They have evidence of domesticated horses 10,000 years ago.. and of human migration from East Africa 100,000 years ago.

I can't imagine Arabia being "lush".. I can see it like the African savanna.

1. When Arabia was green: lush grasslands helped early man ...
   https://www.thenational.ae/uae/when-arabia-was-green-lush...
   When Arabia was green: lush grasslands helped early man make leap out of Africa. ... which ended about 12,000 years ago, during which Homo sapiens – the “wise man” – out-competed all other ...
   
   • Author: Jonathan Gornall
2. Arabian Peninsula - Wikipedia
   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabian_Peninsula
   Pre-Islamic Arabia. There is evidence that human habitation in the Arabian Peninsula dates back to about 106,000 to 130,000 years ago. However, the harsh climate historically prevented much settlement in pre-Islamic Arabian peninsula, apart from a small number of urban trading settlements, such as Mecca and Medina,...
   

 

[sooda]

Arabian Peninsula Climate Change

As the European ice cap melted during the last Ice Age, some 15,000 years ago, the climate in the peninsula became dry. Vast plains once covered with lush grasslands gave way to scrubland and deserts, and wild animals vanished. River systems also disappeared, leaving in their wake the dry river beds (wadis) that are found in the peninsula today.

This climate change forced humans to move into the lush mountain valleys and oases. No longer able to survive as hunter-gatherers, they had to develop another means of survival. As a result, agriculture developed – first in Mesopotamia, then the Nile River Valley, and eventually spreading across the Middle East.

The Saudi Club

The Saudi Club

 

[blü 2]

I would be more inclined to say it is proof neutral, and contributes no preferential proof either way.
Both believers and unbelievers would say that it supports their view.
but then they would wouldn't they.

A benevolent, indeed loving, God who's omnipotent and therefore can effortlessly do anything [he] wishes nonetheless always gives amputees the middle finger for [his] own strategic benefit?

No, much as Epicurus is said to have said, that proposition rules out God's benevolence and love, or if we insist on those, rules out God's omnipotence. It's ridiculous to invent excuses for a loving God's failure to do the loving thing by discriminating against a particular category. If God is our moral example, then that would make discrimination on selfish grounds perfectly moral, a proposition which is a rejection of civility and decency, let alone equity and love.