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What would falsify the theory of evolution?

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I've listed my assumptions ─ that a world exists external to me, that my senses can inform me of it, and that reason is a valid tool. I've pointed out that they have to be assumptions because I can't
begin to demonstrate their correctness without assuming they're already correct.

I've also pointed out that by your actions in posting here you've shown that you agree with the first two, and I've given you the benefit of the doubt that you agree with the third as well.

So what further assumptions of this kind do you make that I haven't listed? Spell them out nice and clear.

Yeah, you are an externalist, who in effect deny subjectivity as a part of the everyday world. I do get it.

If I in effect do it differently you claim, that I am in effect doing like you. Well, I am not, because we don't agree on what the everyday world is. We might agree on there is an objective part of the everyday world, but we really don't, because you 1st person understand real differently than me.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yeah, you are an externalist, who in effect deny subjectivity as a part of the everyday world. I do get it.

If I in effect do it differently you claim, that I am in effect doing like you. Well, I am not, because we don't agree on what the everyday world is. We might agree on there is an objective part of the everyday world, but we really don't, because you 1st person understand real differently than me.
Nothing to add, then?

We can leave it there.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
What would falsify the theory of evolution?

In your opinion, what discovery should be made in order for you to reject the theory of evolution

Please

1 Explain exactly what you mean by evolution

2 explain what would falsify it / what discovery could potentially be done to falsify evolution (according to your definition provided above)

3 why do you think that would falsify it.

Ok ok “falsify” is a very strong word, but what would make you conclude that evolution is not “true beyond reasonable doubt”
Hi.

Any discovery that showed that the offspring of a lineage can only vary by so much from the progenitors would be a problem. So an upper bound on the possible transformations that a lineage can experience over time.

This is something I hear from creationists quite often, that evolution can't produce changes in kind. A discovery that confirmed that lineages were stuck within their kind (for some definition of kind) would rule out the possibility that we all share a common descent. We would have to be the outcome of several hundred million (or billion?) lineages that don't converge (or change radically) as we move backwards in time.

Do you have any idea of something that would falsify evolution?
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
What would falsify the theory of evolution?

In your opinion, what discovery should be made in order for you to reject the theory of evolution

Please

1 Explain exactly what you mean by evolution

2 explain what would falsify it / what discovery could potentially be done to falsify evolution (according to your definition provided above)

3 why do you think that would falsify it.

Ok ok “falsify” is a very strong word, but what would make you conclude that evolution is not “true beyond reasonable doubt”

Rapid speciation is proved/observed. "Macro" evolution is already falsified, neither seen in nature nor observed in a lab environment nor the fossil record.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
The theory of evolution makes the prediction that the development of the variety of life was an unguided process. The idea that God - or anything - guided evolution is a contradiction in terms.

Not necessarily. For example, human selection as a way to direct changes in domesticated species is a type of evolution. Darwin even used the way that domestic species change as evidence of how mutation and selection work to produce evolution. The main difference is that, for Darwin, the selection is natural selection, not artificial.

But the overall theory does allow for directed evolution. It just isn't what we actually see in the fossil record.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
What would falsify the theory of evolution?

In your opinion, what discovery should be made in order for you to reject the theory of evolution

Please

1 Explain exactly what you mean by evolution

2 explain what would falsify it / what discovery could potentially be done to falsify evolution (according to your definition provided above)

3 why do you think that would falsify it.

Ok ok “falsify” is a very strong word, but what would make you conclude that evolution is not “true beyond reasonable doubt”

One way evolution is falsified is connected to the branch of science called abiogenesis. Abiogenesis studies the period of time before the theory of evolution even applies. Evolution is detached from its own origins; abiogenesis.

Evolution starts at the first replicators, which were simple RNA and DNA templates that could store information and undergo change. This makes sense. But how did the first templates evolve, before templates existed? DNA is not the only template that is theoretically possible, so why/how did DNA and RNA evolve?

The analogy is like looking at the evolution of the automobile, while ignoring the cart, buggy and carriage, from which it conceptually spawned. The automobile did not just appear when the motor was invented, except in terms of human based semantics. Written and spoken language is subjective. Evolution uses a magical subjective starting point.

Conceptually, the mechanism that led up to the first replicators, should also be part of continuing evolution. The horse and buggy was used to transport people and supplies, which is still what automobile do. The automobile did not invent these needs. Ironically, the horse and buggy were green; solar/grass powered. Now the automobile is looping back to its fuel origins; solar.

Random change on the DNA may not be the whole story, if the preliminary mechanisms were known. Experiments that that gave us a clue, into what came before evolution, and what drives evolution today, were done in the 1950's. Cells were dehydrated and the water was replaced with a wide range of solvents theorized to support life on other planets. The result was no life appeared in any of the test cells and nothing, including DNA, worked, except in water. The DNA does not work in other solvents. It is dependent on water so it can work.

It turns out everything in the cell is tuned to water and not just any solvent. This tells us that water was the drive behind natural selection at the nanoscale. Water is more fundamental, with even DNA designed/selected to work in water. Water was there from day one, and is still critical to everything in the cell. How does evolution take into account natural selection by water? There is both macro-scale and nano-scale selection pressures.

Natural selection at the macro-scale, such as in a dry desert environment, optimizes life to the needs of the dry desert environment. Not all change on the DNA will work or be selected. Since all things within earth based cells only work in water, then water must have been and still is the natural nano-scale environment used for chemical selection.

Even if we assume there is random change on the DNA, the final things chosen, have to be tuned to the nano environment of aqueous hydrogen bonding, just as they are today. This never changes. A better model of evolution needs to include how water makes chemical selections, so all is tuned to water, and so life can appear, integrate, and perpetuate. This is more deterministic than the current evolutionary model.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
One way evolution is falsified is connected to the branch of science called abiogenesis. Abiogenesis studies the period of time before the theory of evolution even applies. Evolution is detached from its own origins; abiogenesis.

Evolution starts at the first replicators, which were simple RNA and DNA templates that could store information and undergo change. This makes sense. But how did the first templates evolve, before templates existed? DNA is not the only template that is theoretically possible, so why/how did DNA and RNA evolve?

The analogy is like looking at the evolution of the automobile, while ignoring the cart, buggy and carriage, from which it conceptually spawned. The automobile did not just appear when the motor was invented, except in terms of human based semantics. Written and spoken language is subjective. Evolution uses a magical subjective starting point.

Conceptually, the mechanism that led up to the first replicators, should also be part of continuing evolution. The horse and buggy was used to transport people and supplies, which is still what automobile do. The automobile did not invent these needs. Ironically, the horse and buggy were green; solar/grass powered. Now the automobile is looping back to its fuel origins; solar.

Random change on the DNA may not be the whole story, if the preliminary mechanisms were known. Experiments that that gave us a clue, into what came before evolution, and what drives evolution today, were done in the 1950's. Cells were dehydrated and the water was replaced with a wide range of solvents theorized to support life on other planets. The result was no life appeared in any of the test cells and nothing, including DNA, worked, except in water. The DNA does not work in other solvents. It is dependent on water so it can work.

It turns out everything in the cell is tuned to water and not just any solvent. This tells us that water was the drive behind natural selection at the nanoscale. Water is more fundamental, with even DNA designed/selected to work in water. Water was there from day one, and is still critical to everything in the cell. How does evolution take into account natural selection by water? There is both macro-scale and nano-scale selection pressures.

Natural selection at the macro-scale, such as in a dry desert environment, optimizes life to the needs of the dry desert environment. Not all change on the DNA will work or be selected. Since all things within earth based cells only work in water, then water must have been and still is the natural nano-scale environment used for chemical selection.

Even if we assume there is random change on the DNA, the final things chosen, have to be tuned to the nano environment of aqueous hydrogen bonding, just as they are today. This never changes. A better model of evolution needs to include how water makes chemical selections, so all is tuned to water, and so life can appear, integrate, and perpetuate. This is more deterministic than the current evolutionary model.
Sorry, evolution does not rely on abiogenesis. You are using a strawman argument.

And even if it did, that would not be a failure. Currently abiogenesis is in the hypothetical stage. It has not been refuted. You may find some ignorant or dishonest sources that make that claim, but even those people know that they are wrong. They never put their work through peer review.
'

And I see like far too many creationists that you cannot look at the two main driving forces of evolution at the same time. Evolution is driven by random variation and natural selection. Natural selection is not random. That means that evolution is not random. There are other factors as well and they do not tend to be random either.

Why do uneducated people on the internet think that they can come even close to refuting a work that is supported by endless evidence from experiments and tests done millions of times by millions of scientists?
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
What would falsify the theory of evolution?

In your opinion, what discovery should be made in order for you to reject the theory of evolution

Please

1 Explain exactly what you mean by evolution

2 explain what would falsify it / what discovery could potentially be done to falsify evolution (according to your definition provided above)

3 why do you think that would falsify it.

Ok ok “falsify” is a very strong word, but what would make you conclude that evolution is not “true beyond reasonable doubt”
1) The standard usage, which I suppose could be summarised as the development of species from earlier ones by natural processes.

2) Rabbits in the Cambrian, or something equivalent, i.e. a prediction of the theory of evolution that was grossly and unambiguously falsified.

3) See (2).
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
One way evolution is falsified is connected to the branch of science called abiogenesis. Abiogenesis studies the period of time before the theory of evolution even applies. Evolution is detached from its own origins; abiogenesis.

Evolution starts at the first replicators, which were simple RNA and DNA templates that could store information and undergo change. This makes sense. But how did the first templates evolve, before templates existed? DNA is not the only template that is theoretically possible, so why/how did DNA and RNA evolve?

The analogy is like looking at the evolution of the automobile, while ignoring the cart, buggy and carriage, from which it conceptually spawned. The automobile did not just appear when the motor was invented, except in terms of human based semantics. Written and spoken language is subjective. Evolution uses a magical subjective starting point.

Conceptually, the mechanism that led up to the first replicators, should also be part of continuing evolution. The horse and buggy was used to transport people and supplies, which is still what automobile do. The automobile did not invent these needs. Ironically, the horse and buggy were green; solar/grass powered. Now the automobile is looping back to its fuel origins; solar.

Random change on the DNA may not be the whole story, if the preliminary mechanisms were known. Experiments that that gave us a clue, into what came before evolution, and what drives evolution today, were done in the 1950's. Cells were dehydrated and the water was replaced with a wide range of solvents theorized to support life on other planets. The result was no life appeared in any of the test cells and nothing, including DNA, worked, except in water. The DNA does not work in other solvents. It is dependent on water so it can work.

It turns out everything in the cell is tuned to water and not just any solvent. This tells us that water was the drive behind natural selection at the nanoscale. Water is more fundamental, with even DNA designed/selected to work in water. Water was there from day one, and is still critical to everything in the cell. How does evolution take into account natural selection by water? There is both macro-scale and nano-scale selection pressures.

Natural selection at the macro-scale, such as in a dry desert environment, optimizes life to the needs of the dry desert environment. Not all change on the DNA will work or be selected. Since all things within earth based cells only work in water, then water must have been and still is the natural nano-scale environment used for chemical selection.

Even if we assume there is random change on the DNA, the final things chosen, have to be tuned to the nano environment of aqueous hydrogen bonding, just as they are today. This never changes. A better model of evolution needs to include how water makes chemical selections, so all is tuned to water, and so life can appear, integrate, and perpetuate. This is more deterministic than the current evolutionary model.
Yeah water again. The old wellwisher obsession.:rolleyes:

No hydrogen bonds, entropy or liberals on this occasion, but I'm sure their time will come, ere long ;).
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
T
I'll go with the Intelligent Design people's target - irreducible complexity, or a biological structure or system that could not have arisen by such a path. Several were suggested, such as the immune system, the clotting cascade, the eye, and the flagellum, but it turned out none were irreducibly complex. They could all have arisen stepwise with steps not too large for natural genetic variation to have produced, which each intermediary conferring a selective advantage.

They also identified specified complexity, such as symbolic writing in the genetic code.

Demonstrating that man was made in God's image would also falsify at least human evolution.



These are things that a blind, naturalistic process could not generate.
That is nonsense,

Nobody knows how the eye evolved, nobody knows what genetics changes (mutations) are required to evolve say “a bunch of skin” in to an eye, ……….which means that nobody knows if there is a step by step path

1 first you need to determine what mutations are required to change "skin" in to an eye

2 then you have to show that each(or most) mutation has a selective advantage

We are hundredths of years away from discovering point 1 and point 2 seems much more difficult to ever achieve.

In my opinion both ID people and their “refuters” are speculating way too much to make their case….we simply don’t know if the eye is irreducibly complex, and we won’t know within the next 100 years (I would guess)
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Since we are talking about a supposed being that is supposedly all-powerful, you'ld have to assume that such a god could do "anything". That would include triggering mutations that could happen naturally, but which would have low chances of probability a priori (like every other specific mutation). And in that way, such a god could "steer" evolution in a specific direction without anyone ever knowing or being able to tell the difference. To us, those mutations would look just as natural as any other. They essentially would be. After all, how could you tell the difference? Incidentally, the fact that one couldn't tell the difference also means that we would have no rational reason to assume it was anything but a natural mutation.

The point however, is that such a "meddling" wouldn't show up in evolution research, nor would it contradict it - because we would never know and it would look exactly the same as a natural process.

Agreed, and a good point. But even if a deity actually existed and was meddling, because both that god and its meddling would be undetectable, adding such a god to the theory would add no predictive or explanatory power to it. There'd be no reason to do that until we had an observation unguided evolution didn't account for. In accordance with Occam's principle of parsimony, there would be no value in including such a concept in the theory.

Nobody knows how the eye evolved, nobody knows what genetics changes (mutations) are required to evolve say “a bunch of skin” in to an eye, ……….which means that nobody knows if there is a step by step path 1 first you need to determine what mutations are required to change "skin" in to an eye 2 then you have to show that each(or most) mutation has a selective advantage

Yes, we do know how the eye evolved. It happened several times, and resulted in different kinds of eyes. You're making the common creationist's error that if YOU don't know how it happened, nobody knows.

we simply don’t know if the eye is irreducibly complex

Yes, we do. It isn't.

Rapid speciation is proved/observed.

No observation supports creationism over naturalistic evolution. What you are calling rapid speciation is well within nature's capacity without intelligent oversight. The observed variation in the rate of speciation can be explained naturalistically, just as with the mass extinctions, also needing no gods to effect.

"Macro" evolution is already falsified, neither seen in nature nor observed in a lab environment nor the fossil record.

No part of the theory of biological evolution has been falsified by scientific standards. The history of evolution does not need to be observed to know that it happened. Creationists have difficulty with place that observation and reproducibility have in science. We do not need to observe the past, just its relics in the present, nor reproduce it.

And just as importantly, by your reckoning, the existence of gods has been falsified. None have never seen in nature anywhere ever outside of imaginations. I have never seen a deity. You have never seen a deity. Nobody has. All we have are unevidenced claims about phenomena explainable naturalistically from people willing to call their spiritual intuitions experiencing a god. We all have such experiences, but some understand that their own minds are the source of those intuitions, and don't mistake them for gods, a common error.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
That is nonsense,

Nobody knows how the eye evolved, nobody knows what genetics changes (mutations) are required to evolve say “a bunch of skin” in to an eye, ……….which means that nobody knows if there is a step by step path

1 first you need to determine what mutations are required to change "skin" in to an eye

2 then you have to show that each(or most) mutation has a selective advantage

We are hundredths of years away from discovering point 1 and point 2 seems much more difficult to ever achieve.

In my opinion both ID people and their “refuters” are speculating way too much to make their case….we simply don’t know if the eye is irreducibly complex, and we won’t know within the next 100 years (I would guess)
You don't need to know every step of a journey to know that it happened. And you do not need to know every step to know the route. Eye evolution is well understood.

Your demands are akin to a defense council demanding that the prosecutor show what the defendant had for breakfast on the day of the crime. It is simply not necessary to know.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
One way evolution is falsified is connected to the branch of science called abiogenesis. Abiogenesis studies the period of time before the theory of evolution even applies. Evolution is detached from its own origins; abiogenesis.

That is nothing unusual. Describing the orbits of the planets is detached from theories of how the planets originated.

Evolution starts at the first replicators, which were simple RNA and DNA templates that could store information and undergo change. This makes sense. But how did the first templates evolve, before templates existed? DNA is not the only template that is theoretically possible, so why/how did DNA and RNA evolve?

We don't know. But that is no way harms the theory of evolution, which applies *after* life started.

The analogy is like looking at the evolution of the automobile, while ignoring the cart, buggy and carriage, from which it conceptually spawned. The automobile did not just appear when the motor was invented, except in terms of human based semantics. Written and spoken language is subjective. Evolution uses a magical subjective starting point.

No more so than describing the orbits of the planets uses a 'magical' origin for the planets. We can study how things work *after* they get going separately from how they originated. And, in fact, that is how the study *usually* progresses.

Conceptually, the mechanism that led up to the first replicators, should also be part of continuing evolution. The horse and buggy was used to transport people and supplies, which is still what automobile do. The automobile did not invent these needs. Ironically, the horse and buggy were green; solar/grass powered. Now the automobile is looping back to its fuel origins; solar.

Random change on the DNA may not be the whole story, if the preliminary mechanisms were known. Experiments that that gave us a clue, into what came before evolution, and what drives evolution today, were done in the 1950's. Cells were dehydrated and the water was replaced with a wide range of solvents theorized to support life on other planets. The result was no life appeared in any of the test cells and nothing, including DNA, worked, except in water. The DNA does not work in other solvents. It is dependent on water so it can work.

Correct. Life on Earth is water based. So what? The chemistry of life depends on aqueous solutions for the folding of the proteins. So what?

It turns out everything in the cell is tuned to water and not just any solvent. This tells us that water was the drive behind natural selection at the nanoscale. Water is more fundamental, with even DNA designed/selected to work in water. Water was there from day one, and is still critical to everything in the cell. How does evolution take into account natural selection by water? There is both macro-scale and nano-scale selection pressures.

Water is 'taken into account' by looking at protein folding, the fact that the chemistry occurs in an aqueous environment, etc. Nothing mystical going on, just ordinary chemistry.

Also, no reason to think it directly influences how evolution occurs (outside of that chemistry).

Natural selection at the macro-scale, such as in a dry desert environment, optimizes life to the needs of the dry desert environment. Not all change on the DNA will work or be selected. Since all things within earth based cells only work in water, then water must have been and still is the natural nano-scale environment used for chemical selection.

Sure, just as the Kreb's cycle is the natural nano-scale basis of much of the energy production of living things. So what? How does that affect the details of evolution?

Even if we assume there is random change on the DNA, the final things chosen, have to be tuned to the nano environment of aqueous hydrogen bonding, just as they are today. This never changes. A better model of evolution needs to include how water makes chemical selections, so all is tuned to water, and so life can appear, integrate, and perpetuate. This is more deterministic than the current evolutionary model.

Yes, indeed. The nano-environment as well as the macro-environment. Those mutations that are not able to function in the environment are selected out from the next generation. If the protein produced doesn't fold right because it interacts with water in a different way, then the organism that has that protein may not be able to reproduce.

Nothing unusual here and all well within standard evolutionary theory.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
One way evolution is falsified is connected to the branch of science called abiogenesis. Abiogenesis studies the period of time before the theory of evolution even applies. Evolution is detached from its own origins; abiogenesis.

Evolution starts at the first replicators, which were simple RNA and DNA templates that could store information and undergo change. This makes sense. But how did the first templates evolve, before templates existed? DNA is not the only template that is theoretically possible, so why/how did DNA and RNA evolve?

The analogy is like looking at the evolution of the automobile, while ignoring the cart, buggy and carriage, from which it conceptually spawned. The automobile did not just appear when the motor was invented, except in terms of human based semantics. Written and spoken language is subjective. Evolution uses a magical subjective starting point.

There's nothing "magical" about the starting point of evolution.
It starts at whatever point the properties of object were subject to its processes.

ie, the second imperfect replicators were subject to natural selection

Evolution is, at bottom, a process that automatically happens, inevitably, whenever you have systems that reproduce with variation and are in competition with peers over limited resources (and by "resources", I include everything from food to potential mates).

So, whenever abiogenesis (or anyone's god of choice, for that matter) produces something that matches such a system, biological evolution sets in.

Conceptually, the mechanism that led up to the first replicators, should also be part of continuing evolution.

No.

See above. Evolution concerns system that already exist and which has following properties:
1. they reproduce with variation
and
2. they compete with peers over limited resources

Without these two, there is no biological evolution.
So how could the origination of such systems be part of evolution?

The horse and buggy was used to transport people and supplies, which is still what automobile do. The automobile did not invent these needs. Ironically, the horse and buggy were green; solar/grass powered. Now the automobile is looping back to its fuel origins; solar.

You are not even comparing apples and oranges here.
You are comparing plastic apples with organic oranges.

This falls in the category of "not even wrong".

Random change on the DNA may not be the whole story, if the preliminary mechanisms were known. Experiments that that gave us a clue, into what came before evolution, and what drives evolution today, were done in the 1950's. Cells were dehydrated and the water was replaced with a wide range of solvents theorized to support life on other planets. The result was no life appeared in any of the test cells and nothing, including DNA, worked, except in water. The DNA does not work in other solvents. It is dependent on water so it can work.

It turns out everything in the cell is tuned to water and not just any solvent. This tells us that water was the drive behind natural selection at the nanoscale. Water is more fundamental, with even DNA designed/selected to work in water. Water was there from day one, and is still critical to everything in the cell. How does evolution take into account natural selection by water?

Your question at the end makes no sense.
What this tells us, is that life most likely originated in water and that this relic carries through to the modern age. To the point that every cell contains a pocket of water within which the biological machinery does its thing.

I'm not seeing what problem you think this causes for the theory.

Natural selection at the macro-scale, such as in a dry desert environment, optimizes life to the needs of the dry desert environment. Not all change on the DNA will work or be selected. Since all things within earth based cells only work in water, then water must have been and still is the natural nano-scale environment used for chemical selection.

Even if we assume there is random change on the DNA, the final things chosen, have to be tuned to the nano environment of aqueous hydrogen bonding, just as they are today. This never changes.

Another way of saying this, is that evolution can not go back to the drawing board.
It can only move forward by tweaking what is already present.

This is why our eyes have a blind spot (all the wiring in front of the retina / photo-sensitive cells). Why our mouth is actually too small for all our teeth (causing the need to pull "wisdom" teeth). Why our spine isn't actually fit for bipedalism (causing lower back pains in 70% of humans at some point in their life). Why a nerve that only needs to travel a couple of inches from our throat to a bit further down, it actually goes down into the chest, loops around the aorta and goes back up again.
Etc etc etc.

These are exactly the kind of "evolutionary relics" that we expect from a blind step-wise process like evolution.

So again I don't see what problem you think this causes for the theory.

A better model of evolution needs to include how water makes chemical selections, so all is tuned to water, and so life can appear, integrate, and perpetuate.

I don't see why.
There's pretty much consensus that life originated in water and that that wasn't a coincidence. So why you think it is so surprising that the biological machinery inside cells exist in a pocket of water, is not clear at all.

This is more deterministic than the current evolutionary model.

It seems like you just would like that to be the case.
It isn't though.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Agreed, and a good point. But even if a deity actually existed and was meddling, because both that god and its meddling would be undetectable, adding such a god to the theory would add no predictive or explanatory power to it. There'd be no reason to do that until we had an observation unguided evolution didn't account for. In accordance with Occam's principle of parsimony, there would be no value in including such a concept in the theory.

Yep!

But at least, if as a theist one takes such a stance, one at the very least wouldn't have to deny reality and evidence.

In contrast with YECs, that's quite an improvement I would say.
 
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