1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured What will the Second Coming of Christ look like?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by loverofhumanity, Oct 31, 2019.

  1. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    12,113
    Ratings:
    +5,493
    i see it differently, it is not a conversion in the true sense, as it is not about giving away ones Faith and changing ones Faith for another, it becomes the fulfillment of ones Faith. The Essence is never changed, outward understandings and Names will be changed. This quote by Abdul'Baha is along that line of thought;

    "..The religion of God is the One Religion, and all the Prophets have taught it, but it is a living and a growing thing, not lifeless and unchanging. In the teaching of Moses we see the Bud; in that of Christ the Flower; in that of Baha’u’llah the Fruit. The flower does not destroy the bud, nor does the fruit destroy the flower. It destroys not, but fulfills. The bud scales must fall in order that the flower may bloom, and the petals must fall that the fruit may grow and ripen. Were the bud scales and the petals wrong or useless, then, that they had to be discarded? Nay, both in their time were right and necessary; without them there could have been no fruit. So it is with the various prophetic teachings; their externals change from age to age, but each revelation is the fulfillment of its predecessors; they are not separate or incongruous, but different stages in the life history of the One Religion, which has in turn been revealed as seed, as bud and as flower, and now enters on the stage of fruition.' – Abdu’l-Baha, quoted by J.E. Esselmont in Baha’u’llah and the New Era, pp. 122-124.

    Regards Tony
     
  2. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    20,100
    Ratings:
    +5,276
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    The prophecy does not say “The messiah will usher in (rule during) an era of peace.” Nowhere does any prophecy say that the Messiah will rule during the era of peace.

    Isaiah 9:5 For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace." 6 To him who increases the authority, and for peace without end, on David's throne and on his kingdom, to establish it and to support it with justice and with righteousness; from now and to eternity, the zeal of the Lord of Hosts shall accomplish this.

    The events in this prophecy will take place over time, "from now and to eternity," not all at once, or all during the lifetime of the Messiah. The Lord of Hosts will accomplish this on David's throne. That means that the Messiah cannot be David.
    How he will judge between the nations and settle disputes for many peoples is unspecified. Nowhere does it say that this will happen during the lifetime of the Messiah. The time frame is unspecified.
    Nowhere in the prophecy does it say that this will happen during the lifetime of the Messiah. The time frame is unspecified.
    Nowhere in that prophecy does it say ALL the Jews in the world will return to Israel.

    This prophecy has been fulfilled: Edict of Toleration 1844
    Nowhere in those verses does it say “He will "be David," i.e. rule Israel from Jerusalem.”

    In Jeremiah 23:5 it says “when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign” means that the King will not be David; it will be “for David.”

    It says nothing about an earthly king ruling on a throne in Jerusalem.
    That has been fulfilled.
     
  3. CriticalThinking

    CriticalThinking Quranist

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2019
    Messages:
    59
    Ratings:
    +44
    The verse is speaking about the day of judgment, and you can read the verses after it to be sure from that :


    21. No—when the earth is leveled, pounded, and crushed.

    22. And your Lord comes, with the angels, row after row.

    23. And on that Day, Hell will be brought forward. On that Day, the human being will remember, but how will remembrance avail him?

    24. He will say, “If only I had forwarded for my life.”

    25. On that Day, none will punish as He punishes.

    26. And none will shackle as He shackles.

    27. But as for you, O tranquil soul.

    28. Return to your Lord, pleased and accepted.

    29. Enter among My worshipers.

    30. Enter My Garden.
     
  4. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    7,859
    Ratings:
    +3,884
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    A lot of language in the Bible is symbolical. For instance when Christ said ‘Let the dead bury the dead ‘. These verses were written this way to test the sincere from the insincere.
    Symbolic terms often are misunderstood. But Christ said to see God all one needed was a pure heart not a scriptural degree. Interestingly those who claimed to know their scriptures missed Christ when He came and killed Him instead. Of what value was their scriptural knowledge?

    Those who are all about political correctness the first time He came missed the Messiah whereas those who looked for a Great Spiritual Being recognised Him without the need for theological or scriptural debates.

    Now it’s similar. Those who became wrapped in theological disputes like the Pharisees missed the second coming but those who were waiting for a Great Spiritual Being saw Him clearly. Thus God distinguishes the sincere from the insincere.

    Over 2 billion professed Christians missed the second coming because they thought political correctedness would enable them to see Him but what was required was a pure heart which very few had so only a handful saw Him come again and turned to Him.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  5. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2004
    Messages:
    8,421
    Ratings:
    +1,969
    Religion:
    Øneness
    The Baha'i have hijacked the concept of 'wait for the Messiah that has come', from the Christians & Muhammadans; whereas 'the Messiah that is here for this generation' is ignored...

    God bless you for being so drawn to the candle light of past memories; that you miss the moon in the darkness, which is reflecting the true light of the sun.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  6. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    7,859
    Ratings:
    +3,884
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith

    So beautiful.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. CriticalThinking

    CriticalThinking Quranist

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2019
    Messages:
    59
    Ratings:
    +44
    Indeed.
     
  8. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2012
    Messages:
    7,396
    Ratings:
    +3,050
    Religion:
    undecided
    Are you sure you read what I said? You really think a Jew converting to Christianity is a "fulfillment"? So how did believing Jesus had been born of a virgin, that Jesus had risen from the dead, that if you die in your sins you will be sent to hell, that there is a spiritual battle going on between Satan and the God's angels, that a Jew no longer has to observe the Law. And, not long after, when Christianity made up the Trinity, the Jew would have been expected to believe that too? Which one of those is a "fulfillment" of Judaism?

    The salvation message of Christianity is the main reason they believe Jesus came and died. He alone, could pay the penalty for sin. That's not what Baha'is teach about Jesus is it? That's not what Baha'is and Jews believe is the truth is it? So why oh why do you expect a Jew to join a religion that doesn't teach the truth? But that Baha'is think has wrong interpretations and man-made additions into what they believe? That be like a Baha'i joining a Christian cult. It would be a step backwards. Unless... those Christians are right, then Jesus is the fulfillment of Judaism. But, then what is Islam and the Baha'i Faith? Nothing. So we can't have that can we. So, again, for those Jews that did convert, what was the "fulfillment"? What were they taught to believe?
     
  9. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    12,113
    Ratings:
    +5,493
    The quote posted answers your question, so I will repost the quote, I can not offer any better than this thought;

    So if one still chooses to only see the bud, or only the flower, they are not ready to eat the fruit. Each stage of that growth requires the external outward aspect to be sacraficed for the next stage of growth. The core remains and takes on a new beauty a new form a new name.

    To be a Baha'i is thus to be the embodiment of both a Jew and a Christian. But it is also bigger than that. The tree of life is but one tree, so the essence of all Faiths is the growth, the buds, the flowers and the fruits of that one tree of life.

    Regards Tony
     
    #309 Tony Bristow-Stagg, Nov 28, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2019
  10. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2012
    Messages:
    7,396
    Ratings:
    +3,050
    Religion:
    undecided
    So not being nice all the time is a Baha'i virtue? Baha'is reject the Christian interpretation of their own Scriptures about salvation is only through Jesus. Instead, Baha'is have pointed to the "wonderful" teaching of Jesus. One of those is about turning the other cheek when someone slaps you. So fighting back when people step all over you is something that the Baha'is should do and they should disregard what Jesus said? No, I don't think so. And besides, who do you think is walking all over you? But, let me tell you that Baha'is appear to be saying that they are right. That their interpretation of other people's religions is the only one that is right. So in very real ways, Baha'is are very similar to Fundamentalist Christians. You both think your Scriptures are inerrant and infallible. That your prophet is inerrant and infallible. One of you, or both, has got to be wrong.

    Baha'is should be examples of people that put their good deeds upfront, and not be people that just "talk" about what's right. Baha'is should be people bringing people together, but how many people of other religions get pushed away by the attitude and the comments from Baha'is? And don't say it's "not" your job. Baha'is are supposed to be the ones that neglect the bad qualities and see only the good ones. Jesus told his guys to be the "salt" of the earth... He said that they are the light and not to hide that light under a basket. I'm sure Baha'is have similar quotes. Yeah, let's see your light. We probably still disagree on things, but no one will ever be able to say that you ain't a nice person and a great example of being of what a Baha'i should be.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2012
    Messages:
    7,396
    Ratings:
    +3,050
    Religion:
    undecided
    Loverofhumanity said: We believe there will be a golden age, a world civilisation when the kingdom of God has been established and the Most Great Peace will have come. The Book of Revelation speaks about as new heaven and a new earth’ and the Old Testament speaks about the wolf and the lamb lying together and that war will be no more. If you put all these visions together you will get a picture of the golden age. I just named a couple but if you research it thoroughly you will find a quite detailed description of the age of peace.

    When will this "Most Great Peace" happen? That is what the Christians and Jews are telling the Baha'is. The prophecies, to me, seem to be pointing to that day. Instead, Baha'i say most of these prophecies were already fulfilled in 1844. Here is IndigoChild...

    Baha'is can't keep pretending everything is fulfilled by saying that "it's a process". No, that golden age, that "Most Great Peace", when does that happen? When does the lamb lie down on Broadway, oops, I mean with the wolf?

    If there are no prophecies, then we still have Bible prophecies that are still waiting to be fulfilled. Like the 1000 years? And about that, why is that not converted to days then back to years like all the other day, month and year prophecies?
     
  12. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    12,113
    Ratings:
    +5,493
    The Baha'i writings are full of prophecy.

    Many happened, many are unfolding, many more will happen as time unfolds.

    I will not repost any. Easy to find on the Net.

    Regards Tony
     
  13. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2012
    Messages:
    7,396
    Ratings:
    +3,050
    Religion:
    undecided
    No, no bud, no flower. It don't work. You leave out Hinduism, Buddhism and Zoroastrianism... and Islam. All you had to say is Christianity messed up all the "original" teachings of Jesus and that Jews should not have accepted that Christianity... but followed the true teachings of Jesus. Unfortunately, we don't know what they are. I don't know how many times I've asked this, should a Jew, during the Inquisition, have converted to Christianity? And that was Catholic Christianity with the Popes and priests and all the things that Martin Luther said were wrong. You surely don't believe that was the "flower"?

    Unfortunately, I'm really not seeing much difference between Baha'is and Fundamental Christians. Sorry, to have to say that, but it is only what your Scriptures say that is the Truth. If other religions don't agree with the Baha'i Faith, they are wrong. They have misinterpreted their own writings. Good luck on uniting the world.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2012
    Messages:
    7,396
    Ratings:
    +3,050
    Religion:
    undecided
    My favorite Baha'i prophecies are that San Francisco will get obliterated. And that the Lessor Peace will happen before the year 2000. Oopsies… what happened? Of course, Pilgrim Notes... people leaking out things that were said in private, by whom? Was this Abdul Baha or Shoghi? Were those pilgrims lying?

    And all I'm asking for is a few quotes about when the "Most Great Peace" will happen. What turmoil do Baha'is predict before the world turns to the Baha'is? I want to see if those prophecies fit in with Jewish and Christians prophecies.
     
  15. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    12,113
    Ratings:
    +5,493
    I did not leave them out as they are all from the same tree, a tree produces more than one fruit. The source feeds the buds, flowers and produces the resulting fruit.

    They are all connected to the source from the roots to the trunk branches twigs and leaves.

    The tree of life explains all Faith from God, the source of all creation.

    Regards Tony
     
  16. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Messages:
    31,662
    Ratings:
    +15,924
    Religion:
    Saivite Hindu
    What was the reason, if any? A larger earthquake, i.e. the BIG one, the large number of homesexuals, or just those darn hippies?
     
  17. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    20,100
    Ratings:
    +5,276
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    No, the Messianic prophecies were not fulfilled in 1844 because they refer to an age, not a single event.
    There is NOTHING in the Bible that says the Messiah will fulfill these prophecies Himself during his lifetime. They They will be fulfilled when humans fulfill them by following the teachings of Baha'u'llah.
     
  18. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    12,113
    Ratings:
    +5,493
    I never read it that way. The Prophecy is will be firmly established. I see that the currently toothless UN is that established. Now we have to learn how to really use a Unity of nations. It may be it evolves into another union built upon stronger foundations.

    League of Nations changed to United Nations, it may change to?

    Do not scoff at what will come, start in earnest in building unity. The cities will fall, how many how far? Look at the past and ask where are all the great materialisations and their structures!

    Regards Tony
     
  19. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Messages:
    31,662
    Ratings:
    +15,924
    Religion:
    Saivite Hindu
    Are there direct quotes about Hinduism from Baha'u'llah himself, or is there just stuff from later 'scholars' interpreting? If so, I'd like to read them. Otherwise it's little more than Zakir Naik stuff. According to our friend Adrian, Baha'u'llah said very little about Sanatana Dharma. A warning not to worship false idols doesn't count. Neither does Krisnna being the founder really.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    12,113
    Ratings:
    +5,493
    There is no doubt in my mind that this will happen.

    Regards Tony
     
Loading...